UnderGround Forums
 

TMA UnderGround >> Another Karate Question (Shotokan)


5/23/11 12:54 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
FightFan9260
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/11
Posts: 5
 
 Hello everyone

For some time I have been considering a stand-up type of martial art for the purpose of self defense.  I continue to study BJJ(Gracie style) and am currently a blue belt.  Anyway I have looked at all of the schools in my area and am seriously considering Shotokan Karate. 

There is a nearby school that seems to be authentic http://www.glensideshotokankarate.com/ so I am wondering what everyone thinks.  Does this seem like a good supplement to my BJJ and what do you guys think about the school?  The organization (ISKF) has a national hq that is also nearby but is farther away from me.

Thanks.
5/23/11 11:46 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Kolsyrade
63 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/30/04
Posts: 1085
Shotokan is a "first touch wins" style that almost never allow power in their techniques in sparring or tournaments.
They teach good evasive footwork for use at long ranges, but nothing for short slugging range.
No knees, no elbows, no kicks with the shin, no clinch.
Your choice if that is what you want.
5/23/11 2:22 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jrrrrr
196 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 05/23/11 7:56 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 558
If the intent is self defense, train in a school that is specifically meant for self defense. Try Krav Maga for example.
5/24/11 12:29 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
japaneseperson
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/2/11
Posts: 51
If you want to just fight.
Learn how to false crack someone. Just stand in front of a punching bag and practice reflex and punch as fast as you can without telegraphing your punch. 90% the stuff you learn both stand up and grappling wont really be useful in an actual SELF-DEFENSE situation. Go find a tough ex-convict and ask him what really works in prison.

Self-defense = STAY OUT OF THE SITUATION to begin with. The guy that teaches/coaches or watch on TV will not be around to help you when you life is on the line. 95% of the instructors of any fighting sport really never actually fought on the streets in a UN-controlled situation. Most fight when they have friends or people to control the situation around the fight(no jump ins- no weapons - no glass - etc).

BEST Self defense. Have a smart head on your shoulders. I have seen alot of shhhht happen in the streets. dont get SHOT because some mma/bbj instructor said a "move" works. Just assume what you learn DOES NOT WORK. Yes, WHAT YOU LEARN IN ANY CLASS DOES NOT WORK in a real street situation.
5/26/11 12:19 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Old Red Belt
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 05/26/11 12:19 PM
Member Since: 3/11/11
Posts: 88
I don't assume anything it makes an ass out of you and me. Anything is better than nothing if the shit hits the fan. When it does go for what you know and if you survive you can say "Well looks like the training worked after all."
5/27/11 3:56 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Wolfs Law
44 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/30/10
Posts: 341
 i agree with japaneseperson, be smart enough to keep yourself out of dangerous situations.
a really big part of being trained for me, is just learning to be more aware of your surroundings or environments.

I have trained Kenpo for 5-6 years and have walked away from far more fights than before i started training.
5/27/11 7:02 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
japaneseperson
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/2/11
Posts: 74
Wolfs Law -  i agree with japaneseperson, be smart enough to keep yourself out of dangerous situations.
a really big part of being trained for me, is just learning to be more aware of your surroundings or environments.

I have trained Kenpo for 5-6 years and have walked away from far more fights than before i started training.


Smart man.

Here is a real example what happens when you fight FOR REAL:
( i know both parties)

Both can fight.

One guy ended up in the hospital for 2 weeks. 40+ stitches, broken face,carted away to the hospital, etc)

Second guy LOST HIS College scholarship. Needed to hire a lawyer,got arrested etc. etc.

Now who won? NONE. Both still have animosity and feel uncomfortable. and still might end up in a fight again.

if they fought 10 times, each would be a toss up. Just that day and under the unseen circumstances the second guy won.


Got alot of REAL Street fight stories, most end up with FUCKEEED up endings. Bottles up faces, eye hanging by ligaments , Compound fracture of leg( yup, Snapped clean and seeing BONE MARROW), Convulsions , People turning BLUE (yup, you see a line from the neck up with a different SKIN COLOR),guys going thru plate glass(yup, the glass can Make you BLEED to death), bats to the head(yes it sounds like a "CRACK/THUMB", innocent bystanders sent to hospitals,,etc ..

. Alot of times the better FAIR fighter will not win. Guys willing to Shove a broken beer bottle UP YOUR FACE in a crowed club DONT CARE about fair.

If you instructor teaches you SELF-DEFENSE and dont explain to you REAL EXPERIENCES to make you understand reality,, Think twice about the effectiveness.

To be a great street fighter takes a certain type of "KILLER" mentality with NO CONSCIENCE of Consequences.

Ask yourself, can you actually STAB or MAME someone? Can you actually Strike someone AFTER they are unconscious? Bite a chunk of meat out of someone? GOUGE an eye out? Throw the person IN THE STREET infront of a moving vehicle? throw them off a ledge? THIS IS ACTUAL STUFF I HAVE SEEN HAPPEN.

WALK AWAY! That is the best lesson you can learn from your instructor.

5/28/11 2:28 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
alz
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/1/09
Posts: 46
bjj tests you each day you train while rolling. their free sparring does not test you till you get your brown belt. don't agree with paying for your examination to get promoted. hard style TMA and bjj would be enough for the streets.
5/28/11 4:18 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
The Lorax
1 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/22/09
Posts: 1031
japaneseperson - 
Wolfs Law -  i agree with japaneseperson, be smart enough to keep yourself out of dangerous situations.
a really big part of being trained for me, is just learning to be more aware of your surroundings or environments.

I have trained Kenpo for 5-6 years and have walked away from far more fights than before i started training.


Smart man.

Here is a real example what happens when you fight FOR REAL:
( i know both parties)

Both can fight.

One guy ended up in the hospital for 2 weeks. 40+ stitches, broken face,carted away to the hospital, etc)

Second guy LOST HIS College scholarship. Needed to hire a lawyer,got arrested etc. etc.

Now who won? NONE. Both still have animosity and feel uncomfortable. and still might end up in a fight again.

if they fought 10 times, each would be a toss up. Just that day and under the unseen circumstances the second guy won.


Got alot of REAL Street fight stories, most end up with FUCKEEED up endings. Bottles up faces, eye hanging by ligaments , Compound fracture of leg( yup, Snapped clean and seeing BONE MARROW), Convulsions , People turning BLUE (yup, you see a line from the neck up with a different SKIN COLOR),guys going thru plate glass(yup, the glass can Make you BLEED to death), bats to the head(yes it sounds like a "CRACK/THUMB", innocent bystanders sent to hospitals,,etc ..

. Alot of times the better FAIR fighter will not win. Guys willing to Shove a broken beer bottle UP YOUR FACE in a crowed club DONT CARE about fair.

If you instructor teaches you SELF-DEFENSE and dont explain to you REAL EXPERIENCES to make you understand reality,, Think twice about the effectiveness.

To be a great street fighter takes a certain type of "KILLER" mentality with NO CONSCIENCE of Consequences.

Ask yourself, can you actually STAB or MAME someone? Can you actually Strike someone AFTER they are unconscious? Bite a chunk of meat out of someone? GOUGE an eye out? Throw the person IN THE STREET infront of a moving vehicle? throw them off a ledge? THIS IS ACTUAL STUFF I HAVE SEEN HAPPEN.

WALK AWAY! That is the best lesson you can learn from your instructor.



You are hanging out with some bad eggs
5/30/11 11:52 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
FightFan9260
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/11
Posts: 8
 Thanks for all of the responses.  BTW I am in law enforcement so avoiding bad situations isn't always possible.  BTW, BJJ is very effective in real fights.  I think it should be taught in all police academies. 
5/31/11 3:16 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
japaneseperson
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/2/11
Posts: 80
According to my Law Enforcement friends, Sweeps from TMA worked best and are used most often. BJJ helps criminals much more then Law Enforcement officers when engaging with each other (Some Bjj classes actually teach students how to Un-arm Law enforcement officers.)

i would think Aikido locks would be great for Law Enforcement.

For street fighting, it all depends. I have actually seen 2 guys get knocked out hitting the back of there heads on the concrete garage and get totally fckeddd up falling back into a "guard". I would think wrestling or judo would be great for street fighting.

Actual events:
Seen my friend(a state wrestling champ,no other Art) hold a guy over his head, face his friends and actually pile drive the dude. fight over.

Another friend (bb Judo), Throw a guy attacking him on the street and end the fight with one throw.. The guy was Out. Seen him do this twice.


I know of a guy that used to kick bags in the University Football gym(taekwondo) He kicked a dude in the chest and killed him. Well known incident with media coverage.

What is strange is that the most impressive guys on the street that i have witness is TMA or specialist(usually GREAT in one discipline).

But the worst injuries i have seen in street fights are mostly none martial arts taught = Glass related, gouged,falling thru,accidental tumbling,(not counting actual weapons) etc.

If your instructor doesnt explain these kind of events, they havent been around REAL STREET FIGHTS. Learn from your instructor and talk to convicts or actual street fighters. NOT Numbers FIGHTER(as they say in the other forum "dojostorming") 10 versus 1.


6/2/11 12:18 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
FightFan9260
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/11
Posts: 9
 japaneseperson--  Gracie JJ is all about clinching without getting hit(too much) and taking the fight to the ground in a dominant position.  Guard pulling is not part of Gracie self defense unless you are already in a bad position on the ground.  I can tell you that unarmed the mount position is desired but with a firearm on your hip,  side control (with firearm facing away from bad guy) is much better.  From side control, the kimura can be used to roll the bad guy towards you, handcuff him and place him on his belly.  I have been in many real fights with criminals and Jiu Jitsu is very effective.  People on wet or PCP will not feel pain from being punched or kicked in the head but a rear naked choke will put them to sleep so you can handcuff them. 

I can see how aikido would be useful and judo as well.  Luckily my Jiu Jitsu class always starts with  at least two basic takedowns/throws.  We even do wrist locks here and there. 

I am considering Krav Maga and Shotokan Karate still.  I will keep everyone informed if and when I start and I will keep up with my Jiu Jitsu classes.
6/2/11 1:40 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Missing Glove Tape
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/12/10
Posts: 4852
FightFan9260 -  japaneseperson--  Gracie JJ is all about clinching without getting hit(too much) and taking the fight to the ground in a dominant position.  Guard pulling is not part of Gracie self defense unless you are already in a bad position on the ground.  I can tell you that unarmed the mount position is desired but with a firearm on your hip,  side control (with firearm facing away from bad guy) is much better.  From side control, the kimura can be used to roll the bad guy towards you, handcuff him and place him on his belly.  I have been in many real fights with criminals and Jiu Jitsu is very effective.  People on wet or PCP will not feel pain from being punched or kicked in the head but a rear naked choke will put them to sleep so you can handcuff them. 

I can see how aikido would be useful and judo as well.  Luckily my Jiu Jitsu class always starts with  at least two basic takedowns/throws.  We even do wrist locks here and there.

Exhibit A: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtUkeC7WwDc

The clinch, a nice throw and groundfighting(including the guard) in a 'tactical' (training) environment with weapons. What else is there to say? ;)
6/2/11 10:29 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
japaneseperson
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/2/11
Posts: 81
FightFan9260 -  japaneseperson--  Gracie JJ is all about clinching without getting hit(too much) and taking the fight to the ground in a dominant position.  Guard pulling is not part of Gracie self defense unless you are already in a bad position on the ground.  I can tell you that unarmed the mount position is desired but with a firearm on your hip,  side control (with firearm facing away from bad guy) is much better.  From side control, the kimura can be used to roll the bad guy towards you, handcuff him and place him on his belly.  I have been in many real fights with criminals and Jiu Jitsu is very effective.  People on wet or PCP will not feel pain from being punched or kicked in the head but a rear naked choke will put them to sleep so you can handcuff them. 

I can see how aikido would be useful and judo as well.  Luckily my Jiu Jitsu class always starts with  at least two basic takedowns/throws.  We even do wrist locks here and there. 

I am considering Krav Maga and Shotokan Karate still.  I will keep everyone informed if and when I start and I will keep up with my Jiu Jitsu classes.


I was going to mention the "PCP" situation. It usually takes a few or more people to take them down on certain situations.

believe it or not, some JJ instructors teach the students the "rights" of being unarmed versus a law enforcement officer went engaging. I know of a few cases locally where the officer was unarmed by the criminal and fighting for his "life"(Well known cases w/ media coverage,criminal was Fckin up the Officer).

The video above is a great vid, training while securing your weapon(Minus the firing,dont know the legal/civil liability of various states)

Coincidentally i have a coupe of close Law enforcement friends that are well trained in BJJ and Karate. lol.
6/2/11 2:05 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jrrrrr
196 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 06/02/11 2:28 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 569
Ask other LEO if they know others that train MA and find out where they train. I know of 2-3 instructors in NYC that have either police officers or corrections officers in their schools.
1 - The instructor will be able to tailor some of his instruction to your needs, i.e. weapon retention, keeping weapons side away from threat,force ladder, etc
2 - You'll be able to network with other LEO's for feedback, union issues,police picnic's,etc...
6/12/11 3:48 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Traditionalist
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/15/11
Posts: 37
If you are forced to fight, I personally would want good boxing. If the guy is not trained to take a clean punch to the jaw, it will mess him over big time.

Krav Maga would be optimal as well, what I have learned from seminars has done wonders for self defense.

If you strictly wanted some sort of Karate, I'd go with Shidokan, Kyokushin, or Enshi. Shidokan is a dynamic martial art with Kyokushin + Boxing + Grappling type of style, Kyokushin is every possible strike except to the head, and Enshi is a hybrid of Judo and Kyokushin. Best TMA options to me.
6/13/11 9:51 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Ogami Itto
217 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/12/02
Posts: 49920
FightFan9260 -  Thanks for all of the responses.  BTW I am in law enforcement so avoiding bad situations isn't always possible.  BTW, BJJ is very effective in real fights.  I think it should be taught in all police academies. 


Sounds like you're trying to get a good stand up to go with your grappling. Hopefully you get some better responses here but I think Shotokan looks pretty damn cool. Honestly, if all you ever did in life is hone your straight right-left punches you'd be ahead of the game, IMO, and Shotokan, or any karate, looks great at that. If you can develop kicks, too, awesome.

Although I don't think you'll normally ever get to use this in your LEO work, right? You can't or hardly ever have to punch your suspects?
6/14/11 11:44 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
FightFan9260
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/11
Posts: 13
 Punching is always in the tool box if needed.  They make rules for everything but with every rule there are exceptions and you are judged on how reasonable you act.  If you chase someone down a dark alley and he blindsides you with a pipe or knife, deadly force is justified.  You can stab him with your pen if you need to.  You should perform the first defensive/offensive technique that you can.  Often that will be a punch or strike with a hard object such as a flashlight or handheld radio.  Criminals don't play by any rules so things can get ugly.  Your priority is to go home every night.
6/15/11 11:53 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Baki
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 736
hey fightfan,

I hear you on the Karate angle. I'm a bjjer, and it's my love, but I do often think about karate as a supplement to it (and i've done boxing and muay thai...not an expert, but know enough to have good basics). I've really been considering the LE angle lately, and started the Law and Kyokushinkai thread in this forum.

I've been looking to judo aswell (have already done some), as i do think that controlling the standup, while maintaining control of your tools, is the key to it all. but, the karate methods (kyokushin can't strike the head...not bad when considering witnesses and such...), do help with covering the striking aspect that may arise in doing one's LE job.

Also...the Gracie way of self-defence is good for law enforcement, or anyone else for that matter. GJJ and BJJ are not exactly the same approach. As Ryron said, "GJJ is more the self-defence approach to the art, whereas BJJ is the sportive aspect...".

Let's keep these good conversations going....

Baki.

Oh..and thanks to all those who've brought up the realities and brutalities of a real engagement...that keeps us all honest....
6/16/11 12:34 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
japaneseperson
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 5/2/11
Posts: 90
The Lorax - 
japaneseperson - 
Wolfs Law -  i agree with japaneseperson, be smart enough to keep yourself out of dangerous situations.
a really big part of being trained for me, is just learning to be more aware of your surroundings or environments.

I have trained Kenpo for 5-6 years and have walked away from far more fights than before i started training.


Smart man.

Here is a real example what happens when you fight FOR REAL:
( i know both parties)

Both can fight.

One guy ended up in the hospital for 2 weeks. 40+ stitches, broken face,carted away to the hospital, etc)

Second guy LOST HIS College scholarship. Needed to hire a lawyer,got arrested etc. etc.

Now who won? NONE. Both still have animosity and feel uncomfortable. and still might end up in a fight again.

if they fought 10 times, each would be a toss up. Just that day and under the unseen circumstances the second guy won.


Got alot of REAL Street fight stories, most end up with FUCKEEED up endings. Bottles up faces, eye hanging by ligaments , Compound fracture of leg( yup, Snapped clean and seeing BONE MARROW), Convulsions , People turning BLUE (yup, you see a line from the neck up with a different SKIN COLOR),guys going thru plate glass(yup, the glass can Make you BLEED to death), bats to the head(yes it sounds like a "CRACK/THUMB", innocent bystanders sent to hospitals,,etc ..

. Alot of times the better FAIR fighter will not win. Guys willing to Shove a broken beer bottle UP YOUR FACE in a crowed club DONT CARE about fair.

If you instructor teaches you SELF-DEFENSE and dont explain to you REAL EXPERIENCES to make you understand reality,, Think twice about the effectiveness.

To be a great street fighter takes a certain type of "KILLER" mentality with NO CONSCIENCE of Consequences.

Ask yourself, can you actually STAB or MAME someone? Can you actually Strike someone AFTER they are unconscious? Bite a chunk of meat out of someone? GOUGE an eye out? Throw the person IN THE STREET infront of a moving vehicle? throw them off a ledge? THIS IS ACTUAL STUFF I HAVE SEEN HAPPEN.

WALK AWAY! That is the best lesson you can learn from your instructor.



You are hanging out with some bad eggs

Just letting everyone know what REALLY happens in the real world. I think i hang with "average" eggs. "Bad" eggs have guns and shoot or knives and cut.

The real world is really nasty. Use your head and dont start anything is the best "DEFENSE".
6/16/11 9:20 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Ogami Itto
217 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 11/12/02
Posts: 49961
For real.

You know, FightFan, I've been thinking that if all you ever get out of karate is to develop a good straight punch, you're ahead of the game. Just my opinion - a lot of karate guys will tell you, too, that the essence of karate is just punching the makiwara (hitting post).

6/17/11 2:43 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
MIKE CIESNOLEVICZ
33 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/20/02
Posts: 5866
ttt
1/12/12 2:20 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
shen
825 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 01/12/12 2:21 AM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 16660

I know this is an old thread, but check out this great Shotokan website, which talks honestly about what Shotokan is and isn't:

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/
1/12/12 9:09 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WidespreadPanic
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/29/06
Posts: 5891
japaneseperson - If you want to just fight. 
Sir, if you are still posting or reading this please contact me, or post here. (PM is fine). I will also try a PM. Since you appear to be a mudnamer, you might not be able to PM me so send a friend request. I will do the same.

Thanks and have a great day.

WP (Training forum Mod)


 
1/12/12 10:24 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
FRANKI2154
2 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 01/12/12 10:25 AM
Member Since: 2/18/02
Posts: 355
ttt

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.