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5/27/11 10:01 AM
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Underground News
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5/27/11 10:15 AM
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sanno
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This is news ?
5/27/11 10:21 AM
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Frobenius
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this could catch on...
5/27/11 10:49 AM
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Billyz
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some people discredit chiro's other swear by em etc.
I had a great one out in Long Island, NY that I haven't gone to in years named Dr Crescione. He worked with a bunch of NFL players. Had always done some type of martial arts and was very flexible but back then I was lifting like an animal to get as big as possible and getting all the aches and pains of lifting that heavy. It started to wear on me so I started going to him and my shoulders posture and basically everything became better so quickly I was shocked.

I think alot of people can agree if you have a guy who knows what he is doing they can work wonders
5/27/11 10:53 AM
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crazydave
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That guy is working from an excellent paradigm. Smart approach.
5/27/11 10:54 AM
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Ninja Tea Party
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The level of quackery in MMA is slightly troubling. Chiropractics doesn’t have medical legitimacy and lacks strong, positive peer reviewed evidence of its efficacy. This shouldn’t come as a surprise given its rather wishy-washy mystical roots, but what does come as a surprise is top level athletes being involved with it. Given that an athlete’s body is their work tool you’d expect them to seek the best medical advice possible.

Chiropractics shouldn’t be confused with valid Orthopaedic treatments, although Chiropractors do sometimes use Orthopaedic techniques in what they do. It’s a bit like a psychic who uses a GPS to tell you where you are. Yes, they’re a psychic, but the method by which they get their results is by using science. So, whilst there are some valid results from visiting Chiropractors (specifically for lower back pain and issues directly dealing with the spine) you are always better off going to be better off in the hands of an Orthopaedic doctor.

It’s an important issue because many fighters naturally suffer serious injuries and quack treatments can seriously damage their health. See also the use of acupuncture and homeopathy.
5/27/11 11:03 AM
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BrockbackMountain
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I know a lot of smart, fairly skeptical people who swear by acupuncture.

I am undecided.
5/27/11 11:09 AM
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Em Em Eh
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not to be an asshole...

but should he be signing with his hands while driving?
5/27/11 11:27 AM
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Ninja Tea Party
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BrockbackMountain - I know a lot of smart, fairly skeptical people who swear by acupuncture.

I am undecided.

I’m afraid there’s no logical basis for acupuncture, and its efficacy (or rather complete lack of it) is demonstrated time and time again when subjected to tests carried under properly controlled scientific testing. At most it’s as effective as a placebo, however people tend to confuse the placebo effect with a cure. The placebo effect is essentially a change in the subject’s perception of their ailment or condition, but it does nothing to actually effect the underlying issue. You don’t “get better”, and therein lies the problem.

There’s nothing wrong with doing something which takes your mind of whatever is worrying you and makes you “feel better”. We do it all the time. When you have a rough day at work and a friend takes you to the pub (or bar if you’re in the US), buys you a few drinks and suddenly you start feeling a bit better about your situation. The obvious problem is that the next day you’re still in the same situation. It’s fine to approach a drink after work on the understanding that it won’t actually solve your problems but rather distract you, and the same can be said for acupuncture. The danger is in thinking that distracting drink is in any way acting as a solution. A bigger danger would then be Budweiser actively promoting their beers as a viable alternative to medical treatment/sorting out the underlying issue.

Your friends are getting something out of the fact they have a person paying attention to them and running through a “ritual”. This same effect is replicated in medical trials with sugar pills. Look at it this way: If I gave you chemotherapy medication in your sleep you’d certainly feel the effects (You’d be quite sick unfortunately). If I stuck acupuncture needles in your whilst you slept you would not feel any different the next day.
5/27/11 11:53 AM
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Poindexter
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 Awesome singlet.
5/27/11 2:05 PM
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TheSuperiorMan
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 WTF did I just watch?

Was that commercial?
5/27/11 3:34 PM
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Attila
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530 lb bench press = national record?
5/27/11 6:21 PM
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Schmohawked
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Chiropractor looks a little fishy to me...just a feelin'.
5/27/11 8:50 PM
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Ew0k187
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seems like a regular power lifter numb skull to me
5/27/11 9:00 PM
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FenceGrab
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Ninja Tea Party - The level of quackery in MMA is slightly troubling. Chiropractics doesn’t have medical legitimacy and lacks strong, positive peer reviewed evidence of its efficacy. This shouldn’t come as a surprise given its rather wishy-washy mystical roots, but what does come as a surprise is top level athletes being involved with it. Given that an athlete’s body is their work tool you’d expect them to seek the best medical advice possible.

Chiropractics shouldn’t be confused with valid Orthopaedic treatments, although Chiropractors do sometimes use Orthopaedic techniques in what they do. It’s a bit like a psychic who uses a GPS to tell you where you are. Yes, they’re a psychic, but the method by which they get their results is by using science. So, whilst there are some valid results from visiting Chiropractors (specifically for lower back pain and issues directly dealing with the spine) you are always better off going to be better off in the hands of an Orthopaedic doctor.

It’s an important issue because many fighters naturally suffer serious injuries and quack treatments can seriously damage their health. See also the use of acupuncture and homeopathy.



Very well said
5/27/11 9:38 PM
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NCAA92
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Attila - 530 lb bench press = national record?

 For Chiropractics?
5/27/11 10:27 PM
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The Sultan
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 ttt
5/28/11 3:28 AM
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ohforfooksake
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I find it so annoying that my Chiropractor is always making me turn my head and cough.
5/28/11 10:33 AM
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arclight
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chirobase.org

read up. If you must go see a chiropractor, see one that also has a legit MD, or at least has completed pre-med at an accredited four-year university.

Chiropractors are very poorly equipped compared to MD's when it comes to pathology and diagnosis. Basically they have minimal knowledge and training when it comes to recognizing WTF the pathology of an injury is compared to a doctor. Percentage-wise there are far more chiropractors with suits against them compared to traditional doctors with malpractice suits. A Chiropractor will tend to see every injury as a chiropractic one. Some out there even treat allergies and colds with chiropractic, which highlights another problem with the industry which is horrible lack self-regulation and standards.

The only chiropractor you want to deal with is a science-based chiropractor and not a traditional one. There is a difference. They all SAY they follow science, untrue.

My dad was misdiagnosed by a chiropractor long ago and it took a visit to an orthopaedic surgeon and some PT to get him right. Chiropractor (as many do) had no solution other than "you need to come to me every week".

Also try reading this:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/science-based-chiropractic-an-oxymoron/

Thoughts from a chiropractor with over 40 years of experience.

"Properly-limited, science-based chiropractors are now essentially competing with physical therapists who use manual therapy. Unfortunately, only a few chiropractors have renounced the vertebral subluxation theory, making it difficult to find a "good chiropractor." I consider physical therapy to be more progressive and more evidence based. For this reason, I generally recommend the manipulative services of a physical therapist rather than a chiropractor.

There are some science-based chiropractors who use manipulation appropriately, but until the chiropractic profession abandons the implausible vertebral subluxation theory and is defined according to standards dictated by anatomy, physiology, and neurology, I would not describe it as a science-based profession."
6/6/11 9:37 AM
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Ninja Tea Party
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Edited: 06/06/11 10:11 AM
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Jen The OCaholic Jameson. You seem to have serious issues with people finding results in unconfirmed practices.If it works for them more power to them, my uncle had major problems with asthma went to a acupuncturist and had great results. But I guess because you say they dont work he must be a liar. LOL, you sound almost jealousness of people finding relief.

But acupuncture is not an “unconfirmed practice”. It’s extremely easy to test because it has falsifiable claims. Just like any standard medical treatment acupuncture defines a specific method of treatment and predicts specific results, i.e. if a needle is inserted into point Y then we get result X. This is extremely easy to test in a controlled environment, and it has been. The consistent results are that it acts no better than placebo, i.e. that it has no effect on the human body

I’m not jealous of people who find results, however it depends what you’re classifying as a “result”. If the goal is to actually heal a medical ailment then I have nothing to be jealous about, acupuncture is literally ineffective. Do some people get something out of the process of having someone pay attention to them and going through a ritual? Yes, they do, but that’s not a result of acupuncture in itself. It’s no different to feeling better about your situation if a friend spends time with you and it lifts your spirits.

No really, what because a Chiropractors uses orthopedic treatments its a scam. But if a orthopedist uses orthopedic treatments its legit.

You’ve misunderstood. Orthopedic treatments aren’t a scam when used by a chiropractor, they are the same treatment. However, they are the same ORTHOPEDIC treatment, and as such shouldn’t be used as evidence to say CHIROPRACTICS are effective. I’ll use a martial arts example: If I tell you I’ve developed a style of boxing which is extremely effective in MMA, and then I show you effective kickboxing leg kicks, wrestling takedowns and BJJ joint locks but a pathetic set of punches then all I am doing is using proven techniques from a completely different style and using those to claim my pathetic punches are effective. Traditional chiropractic treatments don’t work. Orthopedic treatments do. Using orthopaedic treatments successfully does not make chiropractic treatments valid.

Please stop acting like you know they are all scamming people, because I myself used a Chiropractor back when I played hockey. My Dr. never could identify problems with my back, but the chiropractor did fix it. So are you telling me I imagined all of this, because I think your ignorant and should stop bashing things you dont understand.

Your personal experience is statistically insignificant. I can easily find someone who will completely contradict your own experience (and it would be equally meaningless). What matters are controlled trials carried out over a large sample rate and using proper controlled parameters. In this context, traditional chiropractic treatment is shown to not be effective. It’s not a matter of opinion, it’s a simple matter of what the data shows. If the data showed different results then it would be an effective treatment and there would be no discussion to be had.

Also as mentioned above, it’s the chiropractic side which is refuted. A chiropractor using non-chiropractic techniques to treat your back may very well have made your condition better, just like a faith healer giving you a box of aspirin to treat your headache will have “treated” your headache, but you’d be wrong to say faith healing works.
6/6/11 9:52 AM
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allenive21
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Funny, I'm a chiropractic student, almost done with my schooling, and I treat my MD and his entire family. However, I would definitely recommend picking your chiropractor wisely but the same goes for picking your barber or picking your tax accountant.
6/6/11 10:27 AM
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Ninja Tea Party
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allenive21 - Funny, I'm a chiropractic student, almost done with my schooling, and I treat my MD and his entire family. However, I would definitely recommend picking your chiropractor wisely but the same goes for picking your barber or picking your tax accountant.

Are you familiar with Sam Homola's work? He's a chiropractor with over 40 years of experienced and the author of 15 books on the subject such as Bonesetting, Chiropractic, and Cultism (1963) and Inside Chiropractic (1999). He had this to say about starting a career in the field:

If I had it to do over again, however, I would study physical therapy rather than chiropractic. Considering the controversy that continues to surround the practice of chiropractic, I would not recommend that anyone spend the time, effort, and money required to earn a degree in chiropractic. Physical therapy, which is now beginning to include spinal manipulation in its treatment armamentarium, may offer better opportunity for those interested in manual therapy.

Is he one of those to avoid? I'm genuinely not familiar with his work, only the articles he has written in Science Based Medicine.

6/6/11 12:10 PM
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Ninja Tea Party
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paneo astima -
Jen The OCaholic Jameson -

LOL, you sound almost jealousness of people finding relief.


I can't even imagine the stupidity required to arrive at a conclusion like this

This isn’t a personal dig at Jen The OCaholic Jameson but a lot of pseudoscience rationalisations are rooted in logical fallacies. For example in her (I’m assuming female because of the name, apologies if I’m wrong) reply she doesn’t address any of my points on the subject but addresses me as an individual. Apparently I “have serious issues with people finding results in unconfirmed practices” and “LOL, you sound almost jealousness of people finding relief”. Neither of those points have anything to do with whether acupuncture or chiropractics are effective, they’re simply (negative and incorrect) assumptions about my character. It’s an attitude which highlights the lack of rational approach, since clearly my character can have no bearing on the effectiveness of any treatment. This is a common thread found within the pseudoscientific community, i.e. a failure to deal with facts and instead steer the discussion towards irrelevant distractions.

The above doesn’t make me right either of course, I’m just highlighting one of the difficulties when it comes to engaging the pseudoscientific community.
6/6/11 2:20 PM
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Melissa
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 I have a fantastic chiro in Vegas who, along with my orthopedic doctor and a pain specailist have taken care of a gnarley back injury for me.  Both the ortho and the pain specialist saw me once or twice and sent me back to the chiropractor. 

To say all chiro's are quacks and worthless is completely false.  Are they the ones to go to if you have cancer or bronchitis?  Nope.  But those of you who haven't gone to one please don't fall for the negativity on here.  A good chiropractor can work wonders.  Get a referral from a friend if you can, there are quacks out there who just want your money, a friends reccomendation can help you avoid that.

And for the record, I've been to a lot of doctors who shuttled me in and out of their offices quickly like cattle without even attempting to figure out the root of the problem, just wrote me a perscription and sent me on my way.  Are they quacks?  Nope, they sure are worthless though.
6/6/11 3:30 PM
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Ninja Tea Party
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Not to labour the point Melissa but you're making the same mistake as Jen, and that is that you're talking about people and not whether Chiropractics is an effective method of treatment or not. I have absolutely no doubt that there are chiropractors out there who have nothing but the best intentions for their patients. I have no doubt that they are good people and are doing what they think is best for their patient. The problem is that even the most well intentioned doctor in the world cannot make an inherently flawed method of treatment work.

When you are handed a prescription from your doctor then the deciding factor in whether the medication will work or not is not whether the doctor who wrote you the prescription was an arsehole, or whether the person who served you at the drug store was pleasant, it simply comes down to whether the medication is effective for your ailment or not. If they prescribe a bag of spanners for your bad back then your situation won't improve, regardless of how well intentioned the doctor was.

The behaviour of the doctors who shuttled you out of their office without attempting to treat you is not what defined whether modern medicine is quackery or not, it simply reflects their poor standard of care. That's it.

You're clearly happy with your chiropractor, and I can only assume they are dedicated to improving your condition and work hard to do so. As has been mentioned earlier in the thread, modern chiropractors use a combination of recognised, standard methods in conjunction with chiropractic methods. As also mentioned there are some chiropractic methods which do have limited benefits for back problems. However, your chiropractor's ability to help their patient would be greatly increased if they didn't waste any time with the aspects of chiropractics which are demonstrably flawed.

A quack is simply a "fraudulent or ignorant pretender to medical skill". Is doesn't necessarily mean every chiropractor is dishonest.

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