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TMA UnderGround >> kyokushin and law enforcement?


6/14/11 11:04 PM
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Baki
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hey guys,

i was recently mulling about my Use of Force curriculum, and it occurred to me: could kyokushinkai karate be the best striking system for law enforcement?

consider:
-the emphasis on hitting the body, over the face, favours those who have to consider witness testimony in engagin UoF scenarios; it certainly looks bad when you full on throw out a punch to the face of a perp....

-the emphasis on hard sparring and conditioing.

-the karate origins of the art, as oppose to boxing, open up for a variety of different techniques (btw, i'm a VERY big boxing fan, and practitioner).

What do the law enforcement and karate forum members think?

Baki
6/14/11 11:37 PM
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FightFan9260
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 I can tell you that it is very easy to break(or seriously hurt your hand) punching someone in the face.  I am in law enforcement and have some boxing training so I know the fundamentals.  The kyokushin videos I have seen suggest that punches to the face are not allowed.  For those of you not in law enforcement, a broken hand is one of the worst injuries you can get because you might be able to use your handgun if the guy pulls out a weapon and you damn sure can't control someone while you handcuff them. 

Broken hand= fvcked.  It happened to me a few years ago and luckily I had backup with me. 

I know a former boxer, current law enforcement, who uses body punches and I have seen him drop people with one shot.  He never punches in the face because he knows how easy it is to break his hand.  Kyokushin should be very helpful but from my experience, 95% of fights end up on the ground anyway so  grappling is also necessary.  Striking is limited for law enforcement because you are A- wearing a form fitting uniform and body armor and are wearing a duty rig loaded down with radios, firearms, pepper spray, asps and handcuffs.  Your kicks and punches would be interfered with.  That being said, I am looking to supplement the BJJ training I take, with a standup style.  Like in MMA, it pays to be well rounded. 
6/15/11 11:56 AM
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Baki
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Hey...thanks for the great answer.
I just answered on your Shotokan thread. I've been really getting back into the martial aspect of the arts that I love to practice (bjj primarily, with a strong interest in judo).

however, i've gotten the karate bug back (got a bb MANY years ago...don't practice or remember much now), and am asking similar questions as you are.

Also really started getting into the use of force ideas, and i can see why combatives and MMA have divurged to where they are...

I'd like to keep these good discussions going...

Baki
6/15/11 10:05 PM
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cdueck
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 Most good Kyokushin schools will still practice enough one and three step sparring to train you to deal with a sucker punch to the face. People tend to think that because kyokushin doesn't use head punches in sparring or competition that they are not prepared for head punches in the street. 
6/15/11 11:23 PM
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emiliozapata
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The biggest benefit to training Kyo, IMHO, is the mental aspect of being used to overwhelming force being directed upon you and having to stand your ground and throw back, invaluable on the street
6/16/11 12:50 AM
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japaneseperson
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Yoshida4Life - Kyokushin must be good for learning to punch to the body, because of all the sparring and conditioning, but they probably are not that used to taking punches to the head (given their sparring and competition rules). This would be bad on the street, given how common haymaker punches are.

I am now convinced that boxers often never really learn how to form a proper fist and strike hard surfaces with bare knuckles, because they always rely on hand wraps and gloves for protection.

I did karate as a kid, and in boxing class I am sometimes told off for not wrapping my hands. But I think karate does a good job of teaching you how to use bare fists for punching. Traditional karate people would spend hours a day hitting the makiwara board.



Karate,boxing,etcc none are better at protecting your hands. i have broken my hands MANY times. When you encounter a "fight" in real life. They are NO lights,mats,etc. You are going to have a harder time judging distance and striking as accurate as when you train in a CONTROLLED(lighted,good footing) in a gym or dojo.

These are things that your individual instructors should be telling or teaching you(not a noob like me on the internet).
Street fighting is a whole different ball game.

As for a Makiwara, that is used mostly to develop your CORE. Also gives you more chances at arthritis when you get old.

Ask your instructor,coach,sensei what scenarios contributes to a real world situation. It is very hard to be ready to defend yourself without being paranoid about life.

STREET = No schedule time, No weight division, No timeouts, No rules, No time limits, No fairness, No injury excuses, No health test(very serious consideration), No judge,etc...............

Best stay out of trouble. Seen it all, it aint a winning proposition for winner or loser on the street.
6/16/11 8:28 AM
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Seul
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^^^In my experience, anything less than full on sparring with _____________ doesn't prepare you for *really* dealing with it.

I've never taken kyokushin (though I would love to at some point), but I did spend a few years at a kenpo karate school that sparred under kickboxing rules with minimal protective gear; they took a progressive approach to sparring where you went with just chest contact at low ranks, then sides of the head, then face (but very lightly), then legs, and then "grappling" (thought nobody really knew how who hadn't spent some time learning elsewhere). Punching to the face was largely de-emphasized for safety's sake, but you could still spar hard.

I noticed, though, when I got into boxing I was very weak against committed quick face punches. Drilling them in step sparring (which we did more often than we sparred for reals) just wasnt enough. Once I started spending some time drilling footwork, slips/parries, and sparring regularly, I got to where I could reliably slip good amateur boxer's punches (and consequently very easily slip punches from people who haven't really learned to punch).

With regards to boxers not learning to punch correctly, I don't think that's right; you are, however, right about the handwraps. Karate people don't have the same incidence of hand problems because they typically hit stuff hundreds of times less on a week to week basis and cannot punch as hard (before you get angry, just think about; who's going to be better at punching, someone who practices exclusively 5 days a week or someone who practices punches, kicks, knees, elbows, etc etc etc in the same period of time?).

I think the hand/wrist strengthening in karate would be enormously valuable for boxers, as I feel that using wraps/gloves 100% of the time makes your ability to punch quickly exceed the ability of your fist to withstand punching things.
6/16/11 8:36 AM
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Seul
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^^^^^I mean someone who exclusively practices punching 5 days a week.

On a separate note, I've been drifting towards thinking boxing and a stand-up grappling style as being the best mix of things to do from a pure self-defense standpoint.

Caveat: I've never worked in Law enforcement or as a bouncer, so maybe i'm off base; I've spoken with some friends/coaches who have done one or both, though, and that's primarily where I'm getting these ideas from.

It seems like most assaults that don't aren't more than 1v1 seem to involve throwing a whole bunch of fast punches to the face or and attempt at a tackle/awkward clinch; from this perspective, boxing (which makes you great and evading punches) and wrestling/judo (which make you good at tying people up and bouncing them) seem ideal for self-defense, as much for the defensive skills as anything else.

I've have some friends who say they think boxing (with it's emphasis on quick, evasive, and balanced footwork) is the premier martial art for fighting multiple opponents, but I think that's largely true for any really good striker (it's hard to get decent at striking without really good footwork imo).
6/16/11 12:49 PM
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cdueck
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 I have boxed for nearly twenty years and I have yet to come across a coach that teaches his fighters how to hit. Boxing is one of the best martial arts out there but they teach you to punch very hard but nobody knows how to hit. Over the last year or so I have been putting together a boxing as a martial art program for a friend and the biggest thing is teaching people how to hit without breaking there hands. Watch when boxers shadow box, there hands are open at the end of the punch when they should be closed it should be the opposite. I haven't worn wraps for years and it actually bothers my hands now when I hit the bag if I wear them, I also hit the bag with the smallest gloves I can find and have not had any hand problems.

With Kyokushin's bare handed fighting you really need to learn how to make a fist and land a punch without breaking your hands. 

In reality any training is better than no training, but I do think boxing and judo make a pretty great combo for the street.
6/16/11 2:59 PM
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Coffeeinfusion
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I did a little Kyokushin. Like every martial art, there's something useful you can take from it, but I'm not really into "systems" anymore.

For me, Kyokushin was most useful in teaching me to endure pain and to punch correctly without hurting my wrists and knuckles. We did a lot of pain conditioning -- shin-to-shin, bare knuckle body shots, etc. You do get nailed in the head with high roundhouse shin kicks, hook kicks, etc., so that's never very pleasant.

For law enforcement applications, I have a completely different philosophy from the direct Kyokushin engagement, which generally involves achieving head control and using it to force the attacker onto his stomach, at which point I engage a shoulder-wrist lock combo with knee on back, sometimes across his face; or sometimes a Sambo style thigh crush while maintaining a spine lock on the head with both hands. If the guy isn't feeling pain and resists the wrist locks, I go right to finger locks.

I use striking as more of a distraction tool so I can gain position and control. Going toe-to-toe with someone is fighting their fight and they have the advantage of not lugging an equipment belt and restrictive uniform. I think you have to impose your game on your opponent and use speed, deception and unpredictability. Once you have their back and control over their hips, you generally run the show. Just my HO.
6/17/11 12:28 PM
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Seul
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"Watch when boxers shadow box, there hands are open at the end of the punch when they should be closed it should be the opposite"

This is an excellent point, and something I started to notice in myself after I had spent some time boxing.


"I would think kyokushinkai is great for developing a broad range of attributes in self-defense. Mix it up with boxing sparring to get used to punches coming at the head, and you have a winning combination. "


This is also a good point. I'm short (5'8") and have short legs, so I've never enjoyed kicking styles, but they're definitely worthwhile (and kyokushin seems to be one of the best approaches to striking without protective gear). I have long, monkey-ish arms though, so things like boxing and grappling have always appealed to me a little more.

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