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TMA UnderGround >> Is TKD really from Shotokan?


6/21/11 4:01 PM
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MIKE CIESNOLEVICZ
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Ive been busting the balls of a friend who is a life long TKD guy and does not like Karate. I have been telling him TKD came from Shotokan Karate and he is getting all stressed out.
6/21/11 5:30 PM
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cdueck
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Just tell him to do his research and compare the kata's. 
6/21/11 6:10 PM
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MIKE CIESNOLEVICZ
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From what i have read they are the same. Identical or no?
6/21/11 7:33 PM
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jrrrrr
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It is, Japan ruled Korea for decades. The Japanese all but tried to stamp out anything that was Korean. Koreans trained under Japanese MA instructors, including General Choi and Mas Oyama. Tradional Shotokan became the main influence of what would be Tae Kwon Do.



Choi's father sent him to study calligraphy under Han Il Dong, who was also "a master of Taek Kyon, the ancient Korean art of foot fighting" (Park, 1993, p. 241).[7] Choi travelled to Japan, where he studied English, mathematics, and karate.[7][8] In Kyoto, he met a fellow Korean with the surname Kim, who was a karate instructor and taught Choi this martial art.[7] Choi also learned Shotokan karate under Funakoshi Gichin.
Choi attained the rank of 1st dan in karate in 1939, and then 2nd dan soon after.
Choi stated he combined elements of taekkyeon and Shotokan karate to develop a martial art that he called "Taekwon-Do"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choi_Hong_Hi
6/21/11 11:49 PM
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Skpotamus
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There's a lot of debate about who the "father" of TKD is. A large part of asian history is hard to really decipher because so many of the origin stories get wrapped up in nationalistic pride.

Won Kuk Lee was the first person to teach what would later be called Chung Do Kwan (one of the original 9 kwans of TKD). He trained in Shotokan karate under Funakoshi in Japan (receiving a 4th degree black belt from funakoshi), and was allowed to teach during the Japanese occupation of Korea. He called his art Tang Soo Do (which is korean for Way of the Hand and foot, same as karate do). He names his kwan, or school Chung Do Kwan (which meant blue wave school because he thought it sounded cool). Most of the 9 kwans that made up TKD were founded by his students.

Gen Choi was a student of Lee's and received his belts from Lee before forming his own kwan (he later had those belts stripped from him). When the kwans got together to decide on a name for what they were doing, Choi put forth the name TaeKwon-do.

Regardless of who the father was, it originally came from Shotokan Karate, which originally came from Okinawa.

When I learned TKD, it was Chung Do Kwan. We did the Peyong Kata. Which are almost identical to the Pinan kata from shotokan karate. Which are quite close to the Heian kata in okinawa. I've been to shotokan schools and the things they were doing were incredibly close to what we were doing in the TKD class.

http://www.tangsudo.it/html/leewonkuk.html
http://www.bluecottagetkd.com/files/DevelopmentoftheKwans.pdf
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_General_Choi_the_father_of_Tae_Kwon_Do
6/22/11 2:49 AM
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MIKE CIESNOLEVICZ
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So in other words its true! Thanks for the info guys!
6/22/11 5:31 PM
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m.g
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Interesting thread!
6/27/11 10:48 AM
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Outkaster
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Yes the hand portions are from Shotokan but not the leg techniques.
6/27/11 1:26 PM
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MIKE CIESNOLEVICZ
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The leg techniques are not the same? I noticed most of the same kicks in both styles. Maybe its just the leg techniques have a higher priority in TKD?
6/27/11 2:04 PM
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RickStorm
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I trained Shotokan for nearly 10 years.. never trained TKD Im just posting to help revive this forum =)

6/27/11 4:54 PM
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Fast Pitch
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Originally TKD had the same katas as Shotokan, since the founder of TKD was a Shotokan student. Years later, Korean senior instructors started creating new "Hyung" (forms) to give TKD a different flavor.



6/27/11 5:04 PM
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Skpotamus
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My TKD school (Chung do kwan school) had the same kicks as my shotokan school. Our hand techs differed a little bit but not a whole lot. We even used the same kata (called them kata instead of Poomse, kata is a japanese word). \

Some of the bigger orgs have modified what they do to focus on kicking techniques and modified their competition rules to award more technical kicks, IE, a spinning or reverse kick is worth more points than a regular side kick, a jump kick is worth more than a spin, a jumping spin kick is worth the most, outlawing the low kicks and sweeps to protect people doing the flying kicks, hence the acrobatic TKD competitions. All same root, just different emphasis.
6/29/11 5:28 PM
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Jaggernautico
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There were the original kwans before they were joined into one generic whole. I think the original kwan- Song Moo Kwan pine tree style is mostly based on shotokan and looks very much like it.
7/1/11 1:04 PM
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Outkaster
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No the leg techniques look different. I can tell a Karate/Japanese kick a mile a way. They are not the same.
7/1/11 1:51 PM
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Skpotamus
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Again, it depends on the school. If you look at the modernized sport schools of TKD (like the ITF schools), their kicks do look different, sacrificing power for speed to get the point for their matches.

The traditional TKD schools kicks are identical to shotokan. Having trained in both Shotokan Karate and Chung Do Kwan TKD, I can say the kicks were the same. The exception, is that in TKD, we had more spinning and reverse kicks taught, as well as jumping kicks. But the basic kicks, Front kick, Side Kick, Round kick, etc were all the same, even used the same counts to teach beginners (chamber, extend, rechamber etc).
7/1/11 5:40 PM
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Jaggernautico
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I was talking about the original kwans not the newer versions. Later on they were melded together and things changed.
7/2/11 5:21 AM
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shen
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Edited: 07/02/11 5:25 AM
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I think there may be some misinformation about this topic that often gets repeated...

I believe it's Shudokan Karate (Toyama's style), not Shotokan Karate (Funakoshi's style) which was the influence on four of the original Kwans that came together under the "Tae Kwon Do" banner.

Of course Toyama & Funakoshi had the same teacher in Okinawa (Itosu) so there is much overlap in style, so people say "It looks like Shotokan". But the influence is really from Shudokan.

But Shudokan is a pretty minor style these days and Shotokan of course is huge and I think people confuse the two names and skip over the actual correct Japanese parentage of some of the Korean Kwans by saying they are from Shotokan.
7/5/11 11:02 AM
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Outkaster
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I don’t about that the WTF sacrifices power for speed and technique and have no hands. That might be an another argument but I came up in the 1970’s back when TKD was just kind of starting in NYS. I always could tell when our kicks looked different than the Karate guys at tournaments. There is a shotokan school here in the college I work out and the methodology, look, and delivery methods they use are not even the same.
7/5/11 11:31 AM
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MIKE CIESNOLEVICZ
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This post has really taken off guys. We are bringing this forum back!
7/5/11 2:28 PM
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MIKE CIESNOLEVICZ
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Someone was bascially telling me that WTF is Tae Kwon Do but ITF is basically Shotokan Karate.

What do you guys think about that?


Differences and similarities?
7/5/11 2:52 PM
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Outkaster
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No. They are two distinct schools. The Shotokan influence is from when Choi was in prison. There are differing views but The Koreans had their own leg systems one being subak. Subak was a leg-oriented art.
7/5/11 2:52 PM
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Outkaster
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No. They are two distinct schools. The Shotokan influence is from when Choi was in prison. There are differing views but The Koreans had their own leg systems one being subak. Subak was a leg-oriented art.
7/9/11 9:56 PM
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de braco
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 I thought only drunken hillbillys did subak. Isn't that the game where they held hands and tried to kick the shit outa each other? kinda like purring. Or was that tae kyon?
7/12/11 1:54 AM
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shen
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de braco -  I thought only drunken hillbillys did subak. Isn't that the game where they held hands and tried to kick the shit outa each other? kinda like purring. Or was that tae kyon?


That's taekkyon.

But they don't hold hands and the goal is not really to hurt the opponent. It's more like a kicking game.




7/14/11 9:40 AM
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yusul
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de braco -  I thought only drunken hillbillys did subak. Isn't that the game where they held hands and tried to kick the shit outa each other? kinda like purring. Or was that tae kyon?


that sounds more like a game that the irish would invent.

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