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TMA UnderGround >> Is TKD really from Shotokan?


7/14/11 6:45 PM
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de braco
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 It's an old irish game also,they only kicked each other in the shins though.
7/23/11 9:25 PM
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Old Red Belt
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Tae Kwon Do did come from Shotokan as many other martial arts have come from others.There were Korean Martial Arts already established in Korea at the time Gen. Choi started the Kukiwon system of Unified Tae Kwon Do. Mas Oyama was a student of Both Shotokan and Gojuryu and developed kyoshushinkia Karate of course. Choi din't like the Japanese and developed his Tae Kwon Do in spite of the Japanese influence. In general they belive the hands are for mor artful pursuits so the legs are they major weapons in this art, most intermediate martial artist of course already know this.
7/23/11 10:46 PM
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yusul
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to add fuel to the fire, ji han jae, hkd grandmaster claimed to invent the spinning heel kick in hapkido, which was imported by tkd. i have it on the authority of a first gen student, the one who developed hkd kicking in general was someone named kang, who imported it from indigenous traditions.

ji has a great point in that original tkd didn't have a lot of circular kicks, until i think the 70's or 80's. old article.
7/23/11 11:05 PM
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MIKE CIESNOLEVICZ
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8/5/11 1:15 PM
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TrevorRice
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traditional tae kwon do was actually called korean karate when first taught in the U.S. Its identical to shotokan karate.

i.e- http://www.amazon.com/Black-Belt-Korean-Karate-Sung/dp/0130776696
8/8/11 11:03 AM
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yusul
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^it was called korean karate because westerners didn't know the difference. many koreans used it as a marketing ploy, so a book titled korean karate in english is pretty flimsy evidence. the itf patterns didn't have a resemblance to shotokan, especially the number of kicks in the pattern and the style of kicking.
8/8/11 4:05 PM
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Outkaster
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yusul - ^it was called korean karate because westerners didn't know the difference. many koreans used it as a marketing ploy, so a book titled korean karate in english is pretty flimsy evidence. the itf patterns didn't have a resemblance to shotokan, especially the number of kicks in the pattern and the style of kicking.

This
8/8/11 11:41 PM
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jcblass
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"It is, Japan ruled Korea for decades. The Japanese all but tried to stamp out anything that was Korean. Koreans trained under Japanese MA instructors, including General Choi and Mas Oyama. Tradional Shotokan became the main influence of what would be Tae Kwon Do."


This is true many of the Masters from the 70's all had Judo Black Belts as well. People knock TKD now days, but the TKD post the 1988 olympics looks nothing like the type of TKD that was being taught by the many former ROK army vets who came to America after the war.
8/10/11 8:13 AM
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Outkaster
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jcblass - "It is, Japan ruled Korea for decades. The Japanese all but tried to stamp out anything that was Korean. Koreans trained under Japanese MA instructors, including General Choi and Mas Oyama. Tradional Shotokan became the main influence of what would be Tae Kwon Do."


This is true many of the Masters from the 70's all had Judo Black Belts as well. People knock TKD now days, but the TKD post the 1988 olympics looks nothing like the type of TKD that was being taught by the many former ROK army vets who came to America after the war.


Its true I was there, I lived it.
9/4/11 11:14 AM
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yusul
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''original tkd kicks were identical to karate geri-waza. even the spinning heel kick, which some believe was 'invented' by Koreans, actually existed in Okinawan karate (e.g., shorin-ryu) and northern Chinese chuanfa

both tkd and hapkido (as well as hkd's clone hwarangdo) were founded after WWII, and were each influenced by Japanese budo/bujutsu (hapkido's founder was the 'houseboy' and student of Daito-Ryu Aikibujutsu head Takeda Sokaku) ''

you are contradicting yourself. first you say tkd is identical to okinawan karate, then you are saying that it is derived from japanese budo, which is completely different. you are aware of this because you stated that funakoshi changed okinawan karate for the japanese.

you are correct about takeda; however, choi himself and many of his students never denied that takeda was choi's primary teacher. however, the history of hkd is more in depth, if you look at primary sources.

also, unless what we got in north america was different, i personally never saw a karate person do a spin kick in an open or shotokan tournament in the 80s, and the actual spin kick mechanics are completely different from chinese chuan fa.

what can i say, after practicing itf tkd, is that i found that the side kick and other kicks were performed differently than shotokan. they looked noticeably different to myself and the people i trained with. or at least the tkd side kick was as different from shotokan as it was different from shaolin.

also, observing shotokan tournaments i've seen, the % of punching and low to mid level kicks was much higher than in tkd. however, in tkd, everyone had the option of using more punches, but the kicks did dominate tkd tournaments.

something to consider; if punches were dominant 60/40 in shoto tournament or even 50/50, it could be assumed that practioners thought they had about equal power OR the power of the kick didn't outweight the speed and accuracy of the punch. using that same reasoning, it's evident that tkd practioners did actually think that the kick was a far better weapon or else it wouldn't be the primary weapon used in a point and not KO setting.
9/4/11 11:18 AM
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yusul
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also, the spinning heel kick is performed differently in tkd and chuan fa. i'm not going to get too into it, but look at the foot during the spin, and the hip itself. the contention is not that the koreans invented the spinning heel, but the spinning heel in tkd comes from korean sources. tae kyon can prove this, but also hkd can as well.
9/4/11 3:25 PM
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de braco
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KyokushinCatch - 
de braco -  It's an old irish game also,they only kicked each other in the shins though.

old English game, actually. called cotswold, cornwall, devon, and/or norfolk wrestling after the northern areas they were most popular in
WTF does the shin kicking game have to do with old jacket wrestling? Theyr'e completely different.
 
9/4/11 5:22 PM
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de braco
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 It was never called cornish or Devonshire wrestling, shin kicking is completely seperate. Called Purring in Ireland
9/4/11 5:37 PM
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de braco
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 Where does it state it was ever part of cornish or devonshire wrestling? It's and old drinking game
9/4/11 5:38 PM
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de braco
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 ^ an
9/4/11 8:55 PM
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yusul
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''yusul: regarding the "contradiction," many Okinawan styles (shotokan, shito-ryu, etc.) became accepted as Japanese budo, and since the Korean founders of taekwondo studied karate in Japan, I believe it is fair to say that the Okinawan art they learned could also be considered a Japanese budo. the bujutsu part was, of course, in reference to hapkido's ties with daito-ryu''

although not my area, from what i've seen, okinawan form underwent some significant changes when going from okinawa, which used to be a sovereign state, to japan. for example, it's written that japanese shotokan stances became longer.

also, i wouldn't consider it the same, as budo is a japanese concept that was an offshoot of the bujutsu on japan, developed through the warring class. okinawa had it's own
ethos for the martial arts from what i understand.

''true, while Choi and most of his hapkido students never denied Takeda as part of their genealogy, other hapkido students (Joo Bang Lee, founder of hwarangdo for example) claimed that their art is purely Korean and over 2,000 years old''

his claim might have some merit. he acknowledges that he trained under choi, but said that a monk who taught him yin yang fist taught him the same techniques. this of course is unprovable and not convincing, at least to me.

on the other hand, if one looks at hrd though, they seem to have kicking techniques (lacking in daito ryu), weapons techniques, palm techniques and other strikes missing from daito ryu. at best, he could claim that some of the techniques integrated into hrd were from an earlier tradition.

're: spin kicks, I'm a kyokushin stylist and used back-spin kicks (straight-legged "wheel", snapping hook, and back-thrust) since the '70s. although kyokushin founder Oyama was actually a Korean, he himself said that the kicks of kyokushin come from shotokan and goju-ryu sources; the kwonbup that he learned in his native Korea consisted mainly of striking with the head. there are only so many ways the human body can back-spin and kick. the major difference I see is the striking point - modern tkd strike with an extended sole and in a snapping/hooking motion, while original tkd and Okinawan styles strike with the back of the heel in a wide arcing motion (many Japanese full-contact competitors today use the Korean version of that kick, along with the Thai-style round kick). photographic evidence of this exists in early (pre-'70s) books on tkd and karate''

a few things; i can't argue about kyokushin having spin kicks as we didn't have any of those stylists in our area. i should have said specifically shotokan instead of all karate because tkd is being compared to it.

although, it should be kept in mind that oy€ama had dealings with general choi, in an interview, general choi said he was trying to bring kyokushin under the tkd fold and while oyama decided against it, he did consider the possibility. aside from that, who knows how much technique was exchanged?

from the footage of goju ryu, and other styles besides kyokushin and it's offshoots, i've never seen a spin kick used in a tournament.

also, i don't know what else to tell you, watching my club going against karate and kung fu styles in the 80s, only one kung fu club and the tkd clubs used the spin kicks in comps. i never went against them, but my training partners did at open tournies and really, despite whatever was advocated, it was close to 50/50 or 60/40 punching from my experience in the 80s. maybe there has been evolution since then. i'm only talking from what i've seen. btw, i have a high regard for kyokushinkai.



''tkd's sidekick is identical to karate's side thrust kick. the side snap kick (seen primarily in Okinawan kata) is a very different kick, especially in its chambering'

again i felt there is a difference, but considering i've left it behind to train in other martial arts, i can't demonstrate it. what i can do is post the opinion of one of the first tkd practioners in canada at the time later.
9/5/11 7:58 PM
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de braco
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 LOL at Choi trying to bring kyokushin into the ITF fold. They are diametrically opposed in regards to sparring.How would have that worked?
9/9/11 11:28 AM
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yusul
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KyokushinCatch - oh yeah, forgot to ask if Gen. Choi is one of the TKDist with Oyama. can you identify the others?


sorry, are you referring to a photo? i was just going off an article of a personal interview with choi. i have no idea if there were other tkdist with oyama.

''LOL at Choi trying to bring kyokushin into the ITF fold. They are diametrically opposed in regards to sparring.How would have that worked?''

well obviously, it didn't. i think choi was trying to use the nationalist angle, but oyama wanted to preserve his method of training.

that being said, the way that koreans trained in the 60's and 70's in tkd in korea (marines, etc.) was essentially a 1/2 step short of full contact allowing kicks but not punches to the head, and no kicking below the belt (except for sweeping kicks possibly). there were knockouts.
9/9/11 11:37 AM
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yusul
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if you are referring to the video kyokushincatch, i didn't seem him in it, but i don't recognize him that well in his early days. i remember him being smaller and thinner in person when he came to canada, than any of the tkdist in the video.

it just looks like oyama is doing a demo for some advanced bb for a korean tv show, but the youtube clip is more about tkd and the last bit was about it's spread to ny.
11/3/11 2:32 AM
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shen
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Just today I started reading "A Killing Art: The Untold History of Tae Kwon Do" by Alex Gillis.

Started reading it at Barnes & Noble and couldn't put it down. For some weird reason I'm really interested in KMA history.

Stupid name, but pretty interesting book so far (only read 50 pages so far).
11/3/11 6:07 PM
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Fast Pitch
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shen - 

Just today I started reading "A Killing Art: The Untold History of Tae Kwon Do" by Alex Gillis.

Started reading it at Barnes & Noble and couldn't put it down. For some weird reason I'm really interested in KMA history.

Stupid name, but pretty interesting book so far (only read 50 pages so far).


I just started reading it too. Seems like the author, who has practiced TKD for 25 years, really has a hatred for the politics that go with training in TKD.
11/4/11 12:28 AM
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yusul
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shen have you looked up the royal inspector's martial art? if you haven't you might find some interesting stuff. also, there are rumours of a sword art of baekje floating around in southwest korea.
11/4/11 1:46 AM
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shen
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yusul - shen have you looked up the royal inspector's martial art? if you haven't you might find some interesting stuff. also, there are rumours of a sword art of baekje floating around in southwest korea.



I'll check it out.


***



The book is crazy. It reads like a movie --It could actually make a good movie.

It's about very crazy Korean men. I love it.

11/4/11 3:17 PM
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Outkaster
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I have been retired from TKD for awhile but would like to read it.
11/6/11 11:18 PM
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shen
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I liked the book quite a bit, it was right up my alley.

I have been interested in KMA history since I was a kid in Hapkido where we were literally taught that Hapkido was "a 1,000 year old martial art, created by our teacher's teacher"

--Wait, what...?

If you know anything about KMAs you know they are rife with B.S. in terms of history, for all sorts of reasons --FAR more so than Japanese Martial Arts. I've always found that kinda fascinating.

But the problem is, relatively few people seem to seriously study the real history of KMAs compared to Japanese or Chinese Martial arts.

Anyway, fun read for anyone from any style that is into martial arts history. And it really answers the OP's question like a m-fer.

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