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7/1/11 9:49 PM
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wolfwood
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Edited: 07/01/11 9:54 PM
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Well, let this be a lesson to the newbs out there thinking about going to law school. Get into a first tier law school or don't go unless your family has a firm, you want to go out on your own or you plan on doing JAG
there is a video in the link
the girl doing the suit
http://students.tjsl.edu/files/news/Anna-Alaburda,-Rep.jpg

\
the complaint is right here
http://lawschooltransparency.com/lawsuits/Alaburda_v_TJSL-Complaint.pdf

http://www.760kfmb.com/story/14831984/san-diego-law-school-grad-sues-her-alma-mater-for-50-million?redirected=true.com
SAN DIEGO (CBS 8) - A former local law student is suing her alma mater for $50 million, after she couldn't find a job.

The student, San Diegan Anna Alaburda, graduated with honors from the Thomas Jefferson School of Law and passed the bar on her first try. She claims she has been unable to find full-time work as an attorney for the past three years.

She is now suing the school that educated her, the Thomas Jefferson School of Law, claiming the school falsified its employment numbers.

It's a claim the school flatly denies, saying this lawsuit is about a much bigger debate.

"It's just sort of bewildering: that is the best word I can come up with," said Beth Kransberger, Associate Dean for Student Affairs at Thomas Jefferson.

Alaburda, a 2008 graduate of TJSL, claims in a recent lawsuit that the school committed intentional fraud by misrepresenting employment statistics for its graduates.

According to the complaint, which is seeking $50 million, Alaburda chose Thomas Jefferson law school based on its published post-graduation employment rates, which typically exceed 70 percent.

Those were numbers that, unbeknownst to Alaburda, included part-time employment as well as non-law positions, according to the lawsuit.

Since graduating with honors, Alaburda has been "unable to secure a full time job as an attorney that pays more than non-legal jobs available to her," according to the suit, adding she would "not have attended TJSL and incurred more than $150,000 in school loans if she knew the truth about her job prospects upon graduation."

But Kransberger says the school has never misrepresented its employment numbers.

"We have always followed the system given to us by the ABA," she told News 8. "We have always reported accurately and as thoroughly as humanly possible."

The school says this lawsuit is more about the debate over whether pursuing a graduate degree, and the massive debt it can incur, is worth it in an unpredictable job market.

"It is certainly the product of a difficult economy," Kransberger added.

"Even if they keep totally valid statistics, that doesn't say anything about what's going to happen to you personally," said career counselor Judy Kaplan Baron.

Kaplan Baron added that schools are in the business of educating, not finding its graduates work.

"It is the responsibility of the person who is paying so much for an education to figure out what they're going to be able to do with it," Kaplan Baron told News 8. "That is going in with your eyes open: I guess it's a very expensive life lesson."

According to the complaint, Alaburda has been working as a document reviewer on a freelance basis, still unable to find work as a full-time attorney.

For its part, the law school says Alaburda's experience was not that of the majority of her fellow graduates.

According to a new report by the National Association for Law Placement, the overall employment rate for new law school graduates throughout the country is at a 15-year low, at under 88 percent.
7/1/11 9:50 PM
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wolfwood
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geez been a long time since I posted on here the format is a little different than sherdog. Sorry for screwing that up
7/2/11 12:47 AM
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bigskymma
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She went to one of the worst schools in the nation. She was too damn dumb to realize that she was vastly overpaying for a sub-par legal education.

She should have done some research on cost, real job placement stats, and realistic salary numbers before she went to that dump. Seriously, people who go to this school (and their ilk) are part of why people hate attorneys.

As a law student I feel no remorse for idiots like this. I did research and understand what the job market holds and my realistic chances.
7/2/11 2:41 AM
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wolfwood
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like failcake said

"I've got no dog in this fight. I didn't go to Thomas Jefferson. I don't know anyone who went there, save for an aquintance. But that's some bullshit.

Where do you get off saying it's one of the worst schools in the nation, it's sub par, and their alums are why people hate attorneys?

Sure it's fourth tier but it's still legit; it's ABA-accredited (the highest accreditation for US law schools). Their bar pass rate is 70% for California while the overall California pass rate is in the low 60s. There are plenty of respected attorneys who went there, including federal and superior court judges. So tell me, just what the fuck are you talking about?

You'll need to change your attitude if you ever plan on practicing law. First, you're acting like a smug fuck. You're going to rub the wrong person the wrong way with that crap. People can make your life hell. Worse still, if you say that garbage about an actual attorney you'll find yourself in a defamation suit."
7/3/11 1:14 PM
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bigskymma
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Wolfwood:

We will begin with the ABA accredited. It is absolute horse shit. There are 201 accredited schools. Getting accredited is not overly difficult. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure that the failure rate of not being approved is very low.


The majority of those schools exist for one single reason: to make money. These schools tend to have high student to professor ratio, incredibly high tuition, place badly, and generally leave students with few options after law school.

Moving on to attorney/judges that came out of that school. TJLS accepts almost 900 people a year. It is not too difficult to find a few people who are going to become good attorneys or judges.

Moreover compare their number to schools located in the same geographic area. Berkley, USC, UCLA, and Stanford turn out a higher percentage (per capita) and simply more judges and respected attorneys.

Furthermore, out of those 900 people only 200 graduate. Only 48 of those transfer out. that means they fail roughly 650 people PER CLASS. Pretty easy to turn out the better students. Easy money pit.

On bar passage. Big whoop. That is exactly what a law school should prepare you for. Let's take a look at the most recent bar passage rates. TJLS had a whopping 59 percent pass rate. Let's compare that to TJLS competitor schools:

Stanford - 98
Berkley - 91
USC - 90
Pepperdine - 88
Loyola - 84
UCLA - 83.5
Western State - 83.3
UC Davis - 81.3
UC Hasting - 80.8
Univ. of San Fran - 76
Pacific McGeorge - 71
Santa Clara - 70.4
California Western - 70.1
Chapman - 69.6
Univ. of San Diego - 65
Southwestern - 59
TJSL - 58
Golden Gate - 57
Whittier - 53
La Verne - 43

Let's compare nationally for school's who had at least 20 people take the bar. Out of 19 schools only 2 fared worse than TJLS. University of Miami and Cooley.

Source: http://www.protectconsumerjustice.org/2010-california-bar-exam-pass-rates-by-law-school-2.html

Honestly what this all comes down to is competition. Why would you choose to go to a school that places poorly nationally and has to compete with schools like Stanford, Berkley, UCLA, and USC? Furthermore, since you are in California you are likely going to have to compete with students from Yale, Harvard, and other T14 schools.

Add on top of that the tuition is over 30k/yr. That is 90k in tuition only over 3 years. Add in some living expenses and you are looking at over 100k before you even sniff a job.


Defemation: Highly unlikely. No damage. Likely not a public concern.

Smug asshole: Why? Because I think people should do some research and do some critical thinking before throwing down 100K? 5 minutes with google tells anyone who cares to know:

1. Legal job market is poor
2. Law schools fudge their data for USN
3. Going to a low ranked school is financial suicide for 99 percent of applicants
4. If your not going T14 you better be going for cheap and want to work regionally
7/4/11 9:55 PM
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thesleeper
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Schools are deliberately making it difficult to discern their placement record. People go to school to learn how to analyze ambiguous information, schools should be regulate to be transparent. The schools are trying to capture financial aid dollars, which come from all of our tax dollars. So technically we all have a stake in the effectiveness of education...
7/5/11 8:46 AM
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Fake Pie
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Cooley is shit and I don't feel bad for anyone that went there. You could spend 5 minutes on Google and realize what the deal with Cooley is. You are a fucking moron if you go there and a functioning retard if you take loans to go there.
7/7/11 1:00 AM
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bigskymma
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TJLS is the Cooley of California.
7/8/11 1:29 AM
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KenTheWalrus
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Law schools get sued by their students all the time.

70% employment rate is not a good rate.

Other than Cooley printing their own rankings, which are retarded, I don't understand why people give the school such a hard time.

I also don't understand why people follow the U.S. News rankings since they are so easily manipulated.
7/8/11 10:00 AM
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419
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As one of my professors said, the rankings matter because the rankings matter.
7/8/11 1:08 PM
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KenTheWalrus
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But they don't for most students. Top 20, yes, it matters. After that it's more about performance and experience than the school name.

7/9/11 3:12 PM
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419
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The rankings matter because some prospective students believe they matter.
10/26/11 11:59 PM
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RickStormsHotSister
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The rankings matter because it is the surefire way of discerning who the top candidates are - which is important in a competitive field like law.

Do you really want to say that a Cooley grad is no different from a Notre Dame grad when the Cooley grad could have had a 2.8 GPA in college and scored in the 40th percentile of the LSAT while the Notre Dame grad had a 3.7 and scored in the 97th percentile?

It's not to say that any one ND grad is better than any one Cooley grad, but let's just say that if I have ten candidates's applications and I see 5 Cooley grads and 5 ND grads - I'd be stupid to equivocate the Cooley grads with the ND grads.
10/27/11 12:06 PM
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WikiTheWalrus
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Yes, I would put Cooley grads in the same boat as ND grads. How many of you have ever worked with a Cooley grad? Or are you all just working on your assumptions and other people's experiences? I have worked with alot of them, and they were all fine at their jobs. Some were better than grads from other schools.

There are a ton of very successful Cooley grads in Michigan. All of the top firms in Michigan have Cooley grads working for them. My first mentor was a Cooley grad and he was one of the most successful litigators in the state.

I don't let US News or anyone else make my decisions for me. When I look at a resume I look at how well that person performed through their entire law school career and I don't even care about their LSAT results. If someone went through three years of law school and couldn't perform better on the LSAT, they just wasted those three years or scored perfect on the test to begin with. I do look at undergrad GPA, but the only reason I do that is to see if the candidate was dedicated to scholastic excellence from the start, worked harder in law school, or was average their entire scholastic career.

I understand why Cooley gets a bad rap, and I believe the school deserves it to some extent for the stupid shit they do, but I don't let the school's reputation interfere with the grad's reputation. I've heard how Cooley is a degree mill (not true, I've seen the stats), how Cooley will take anyone (not true, I've seen the stats), and how Cooley ranks itself higher than traditionally top ten schools. But I have never heard of the faculty being subpar or the education being subpar. Actually, most people in Michigan that I know believe Cooley is the harder school to graduate from, and I agree (again, I've seen the stats).

10/27/11 12:23 PM
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RickStormsHotSister
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Wiki, most students who go to Cooley are ones who:

A) Didn't do well in college
B) Did very poorly on the LSAT
C) Didn't put the time into researching Cooley
D) Were willing to spend top dollar on an inferior legal education

Cooley is a degree mill (see: new campus in FL), Cooley will take almost anyone (see: their stats), and they are foolish in the way they conduct themselves.

Of course, this is not a personal reflection upon any one person. I have a friend who went to Cooley and I have never mocked her for it.

Let's just keep it real, though, man.
10/27/11 12:40 PM
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RickStormsHotSister
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The other thing is this: people always talk about older graduates of a law school - which is what they do with John Marshall in Chicago. But here's the thing, back in the day - it didn't matter where you went to law school and, if anything, you were more likely to stay local because you probably had a family.

While there may be great Cooley '74 grads, I doubt you'll hear much from unconnected Cooley '14 grads. Phone Post
10/27/11 12:57 PM
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WikiTheWalrus
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Edited: 10/27/11 1:10 PM
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RickStormsHotSister - Wiki, most students who go to Cooley are ones who:

A) Didn't do well in college
B) Did very poorly on the LSAT
C) Didn't put the time into researching Cooley
D) Were willing to spend top dollar on an inferior legal education

Cooley is a degree mill (see: new campus in FL), Cooley will take almost anyone (see: their stats), and they are foolish in the way they conduct themselves.

Of course, this is not a personal reflection upon any one person. I have a friend who went to Cooley and I have never mocked her for it.

Let's just keep it real, though, man.
I've personally seen all of Cooley's statsand you are completely wrong. 

a) The average UGPA (at the time I saw it) was a 2.8. (I think) I saw a bunch of students with 4.0s from very reputable undergrad programs.
b) I don't remember the average LSAT, but I remember seeing a bunch of students with 170+ LSAT scores.
c) Every Cooley student and grad I've known knew all about Cooley before applying.
d) The majority of Cooley students receive some type of school scholarship, and at one time at least, half of the students were receiving half-tuition partial scholarships, which equated roughly 8-9k per semester.

Having more campuses does not lessen the requirements for graduation, it only allows for more students to attend the school.

Do you personally have any experience working with Cooley grads? You mention one person you know that went there, but did you work with her?  Did she work in a less than professinal way? Did she not know the procedures or the substantive law she was required to know? 
10/27/11 1:06 PM
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WikiTheWalrus
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RickStormsHotSister -  The other thing is this: people always talk about older graduates of a law school - which is what they do with John Marshall in Chicago. But here's the thing, back in the day - it didn't matter where you went to law school and, if anything, you were more likely to stay local because you probably had a family.

While there may be great Cooley '74 grads, I doubt you'll hear much from unconnected Cooley '14 grads. Phone Post
You're still using the same failed logic. Simply because Cooley has a poor reputation (whether it's deserved or not) does not mean that reputation will define someone's entire career. Yes, Cooley's rep will have an effect on recent grads, but I'm not arguing that it will. I am arguing that Cooley's rep shouldn't have an effect, not that it does or doesn't. In my experience working with, alongside, and for Cooley grads, the education they received was just the same as my colleagues who went to Harvard, Yale, or U of M. (On a side note, I always found it odd that I worked with more Harvard and Yale grads than U of M grads). Some areas, like judicial posiions and academia, will be significantly hindered by Cooley's rep, but that's a failure of the system in those areas still being an old boys club (to an extent)., or otherwise using criteria that is not based upon performance. 
10/27/11 1:09 PM
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WikiTheWalrus
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RickStormsHotSister -  The other thing is this: people always talk about older graduates of a law school - which is what they do with John Marshall in Chicago. But here's the thing, back in the day - it didn't matter where you went to law school and, if anything, you were more likely to stay local because you probably had a family.

While there may be great Cooley '74 grads, I doubt you'll hear much from unconnected Cooley '14 grads. Phone Post
Every school talks about the accomplishments of their alumni, not just two schools. And you're assuming my mentor was old. He isn't.
 
10/27/11 1:19 PM
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RickStormsHotSister
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I am assuming that your mentor didn't graduate in the "new era" of law, and I'm right. With so many JDs for so few jobs, ranking has never mattered more; it is a useful heuristic, no matter how much you want to discount it.

I don't think that Cooley students receive inferior training, other than the extent to which their fellow classmates play a role in that training. As for it being a diploma mill, the fact that they have so many campuses does lend to them deserving that moniker.

I didn't mention the Cooley student I know as anecdotal evidence, I was trying to make it clear that I don't have anything against them personally. But you are obviously committed to using anecdotal and unrepresentative data; there are some 170's, really? That doesn't change the fact that they take students who scored in the 140's.

As for the scholarships, I have heard that they are really difficult to keep - which is why they grant so many of them; they know students will lose them in future years. Phone Post
10/27/11 1:28 PM
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RickStormsHotSister
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25th/75th

LSAT: 144/149
GPA: 2.7/3.3

75% (probably more like 90%) of the class consists of students who would objectively be described as sub-par. It's all good, it's not that they're bad people or that they wouldn't have a good legal career - but at the time of matriculation, Cooley 0L's are not promising law students. Phone Post
10/27/11 1:36 PM
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WikiTheWalrus
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RickStormsHotSister -  I am assuming that your mentor didn't graduate in the "new era" of law, and I'm right. With so many JDs for so few jobs, ranking has never mattered more; it is a useful heuristic, no matter how much you want to discount it.

I don't think that Cooley students receive inferior training, other than the extent to which their fellow classmates play a role in that training. As for it being a diploma mill, the fact that they have so many campuses does lend to them deserving that moniker.

I didn't mention the Cooley student I know as anecdotal evidence, I was trying to make it clear that I don't have anything against them personally. But you are obviously committed to using anecdotal and unrepresentative data; there are some 170's, really? That doesn't change the fact that they take students who scored in the 140's.

As for the scholarships, I have heard that they are really difficult to keep - which is why they grant so many of them; they know students will lose them in future years.
Phone Post
I'm not going to get into some e-battle over this. I just thought the two bolded statements were funny.

I realize the legal world has been, and probably always will, see Cooley as something less than a credible school. I simply see things differently based upon my own experience and not someting "I heard" or what some other source says. 
10/27/11 1:40 PM
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RickStormsHotSister
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"I have heard" = I have seen the stipulations they put on 1L's. That they have to maintain a top 25% ranking to keep their scholarship, and that this is done for more than 25% of students so some are destined to lose their scholarship.

I was going to accuse you of trolling in my last couple of posts, now it is clear I would have been right in doing so. Phone Post
10/27/11 1:41 PM
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RickStormsHotSister
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RickStormsHotSister - 25th/75th

LSAT: 144/149
GPA: 2.7/3.3

75% (probably more like 90%) of the class consists of students who would objectively be described as sub-par. It's all good, it's not that they're bad people or that they wouldn't have a good legal career - but at the time of matriculation, Cooley 0L's are not promising law students. Phone Post
Like I said. Phone Post
10/27/11 1:43 PM
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WikiTheWalrus
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RickStormsHotSister -  25th/75th

LSAT: 144/149
GPA: 2.7/3.3

75% (probably more like 90%) of the class consists of students who would objectively be described as sub-par. It's all good, it's not that they're bad people or that they wouldn't have a good legal career - but at the time of matriculation, Cooley 0L's are not promising law students. Phone Post
It just dawned on me, are you the same guy who is now preparing for the LSAT?

Your whole statement is premised on the idea that the LSAT is the sole indicator, or at the very least the greatest indicator, of a law student's performance. I don't believe it is, no matter how much the LSAC tries to sell that idea to me.

The fact of the matter is that you don't seem to have any professional working experience with any Cooley grads, where I do. If you want to base your opinion on information that you received from purely secondary sources, then sweet, go for it. I'm just saying in my own personal experience I have found Cooley grads and their performance to be equal to, or sometimes above, their counterparts from other schools.
 

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