UnderGround Forums
 

JKD UnderGround >> Training Conundrum


7/8/11 11:42 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Missing Glove Tape
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/12/10
Posts: 5202
 
Wasn't 100% sure where to put this thread, but since I've been rereading the Tao this week I found a quote that speaks to an issue I've been thinking about for awhile now.

"Do not deny the classical approach simply as a reaction, for you will have created another pattern and trapped yourself there"

Within the context of all that we despise about the classical approach re: TMA/JKD dogma, does anyone else, however seldom, feel like the rise of MMA is boxing us into the same kind of patterns/dogma at the other end of the spectrum? Meaning, the same shortcomings pertaining to styles and the cookie-cutter MMA fighter approach and all that implies re: bald heads, bare feet, rash guards, board shorts, 3 oz gloves and training in/for the 'cage'...

Not sure that I'm doing my thoughts justice, but it just seems like the trend/evolution towards MMA is locking people into the same classical mess described in the Tao. Where there should be completeness and self-expression, there is yet another confining 'method' people are trying to imitate and impose on others.
7/8/11 2:10 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Adam Singer
13 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/17/02
Posts: 2684
The beauty of the cage is that it lets us test and therefore there is no real "style" of MMA but pure self expression.
Adam
7/8/11 2:44 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Adam Singer
13 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/17/02
Posts: 2685
Yoshida, that's my point. Like any other sport mma will grow and evolve. Trust me as an mma insider. We are Always looking for new and improved. No different than football. Where was the spread offense 10 years ago. He beauty of sports is that a dogma is only as good as the record behind it. Even genius coaches and state of the art systems fail when they don't grow. Shit I would go as far as to say you don't even have two current champs with the same skill sets. Sports are usually the closest we can get to truth. Phone Post
7/8/11 3:03 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Missing Glove Tape
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/12/10
Posts: 5204
Adam Singer - The beauty of the cage is that it lets us test and therefore there is no real "style" of MMA but pure self expression.

Yes and no.

To mirror some of what Y4L wrote, in my experience the 'mma' recipe is a 4 piece puzzle of boxing, muay thai, wrestling, and bjj. And to that end people are well-rounded in their dogmatic incompleteness. Both in a practical and philosphical sense. Meaning, guys will train standup, clinch, and ground to be 'complete' fights, but (ime) they confine their thinking/understanding of what each style represents as a slice of the puzzle and how it all ties together. Look at the various structures of the cookie-cutter mma fighter as an example. Boxing hands, muay thai for in-fighting and the big round kick, wrestling for takedowns and top control, and bjj for pretty much everything on the ground. And in the context of how the average joe is training, there's very little in the way of different hand strikes, spinning techniques, etc, despite their success when used occasionally in mma. Few people really understand or appreciate clinch fighting, and fewer still know how to throw people with any great sucess. Kicking is even worse than most people's boxing, as it seems the extent of their kicking games is the lead leg teep, inside leg kick, and big round kick to the leg, body, and if flexibility allows, the head. And don't get me started on bjj(an art I love and respect dearly) re: takedowns, control, scrambling, and lower body submissions, etc.

Basically, I feel like all people are doing is taking the dogma from each individual style and combining it all to fit under the banner and sport of MMA, when what they should be doing (imo), since they have ample opportunity re: MMA espousing the idea of cross-training, is drawing from all styles to see what works (in alive environments) for the individual as functionality and self-expression. Yet people don't, and as a result *I* feel like MMA is producing less and will continue to do so thanks to dogma and people not having/pursuing expert resources(ie: a group boxing/muay thai 'class' at an MMA gym rather than people spending _____ amount of time training at real boxing gyms and muay thai camps under the guidance of professional coaches).

Still not sure if I'm adequately describing what I'm trying to say, but I hope it makes somekind of sense at least...
7/8/11 3:58 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Adam Singer
13 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/17/02
Posts: 2686
I mean this with no intended disrespect but it seems like there is a disconnect between what is really happening in MMA and what you perceive is happening in MMA. Every team in football has a running game and a passing game. But that does not mean that any two teams look alike. WINNING is everything and as such we will all look for any way to do that. Therefore there is never an end to evolution. EVERY sport is like that if the rules allow for evolution. Even a sport as dogmatic as baseball will see a new pitch come along every few years. I dont want to continue in a circular discussion so hopefully some other people will chime in.
7/8/11 5:31 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Missing Glove Tape
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/12/10
Posts: 5206
None taken.

Even though I draw a line between MMA at the everyman and elite/professional level, my point (as best I can describe it) is basically this; for all intents and purposes, MMA has been around as a spectacle and sport for nearly 20yrs. Yet even today, I think when you average things out from the perspective of dogma and skills/techniques used, we're *still* not seeing guys with solid boxing, kicking, clinch, or groundfighting who did not bring it with them to MMA from previous training(ie: bjj phenoms or former wrestlers, professional boxers, etc), nor are we seeing completeness at each range.

For example, compare the ring style of muay thai the cookie cutter thaiboxer and MMA fighter learns to something like muay boran, Burmese boxing, or even sanshou/sanda. Obviously, there's a disparity in skill between disciplines/fighters relative the popularity(or rather, obscurity) of each style. But what I'm trying my best to say is that what you see in MMA and/or when you talk to people who train/teach MMA at the everyman level, the dogmatic picture they paint is essentially that the ring style of muay thai is all there is re: functionality. Yet, when you back away to see the other styles, you see that's not actually the case at all. It's just that the other styles aren't nearly as popular therefore people don't consider their strengths/techniques because they don't feature in the dogma and practice of the ring style. And to give a personal illustration, years ago I had a coach who came up at Fairtex who, when about sanshou/Cung Le and sidekicks in particular, basically pushed the question(s) aside because his frame of reference was such that since they didn't feature in muay thai they weren't that good.

Same sorta thing in bjj itself and as the base for MMA grappling. How come we don't see more big throws? How come we don't see more leg submissions? IMO, it's because neither feature highly in bjj, therefore the perception...based on dogma...is that they're harder to learn, dangerous, lower percentage, etc. But again, we know that's not actually the case because both(throws/leglocks) have been around in other styles for years, and both now and back in the early days of MMA we've seen people with those backgrounds come in and demonstrate their effectiveness, yet the dogma(s) persists thanks to the confines of the 4 piece puzzle.

We even see the dogma in the context of something an individual learns needing to be absorbed/claimed under the veil of _____ style...especially as it concerns bjj and wrestling. Pick a technique that has historically been used in wrestling and has now made its way to bjj/grappling and you(I do, at least) will see/hear bjj guys saying _____ technique has been around forever and that _______ guy was using it back before bjj even came to America. Or the whole judo-bjj fued re: a propagandized non-judo history(fusen-ryu rather than Maeda being a kodokan representative) and techniques bjj has claimed to have 'invented' despite there being photo/video examples from judo often decades earlier. The dogma being so strong people (seemingly) feel as if they can't accept something until it be shown to spring from/fit within the confines of their style. It's really no different from the shenanigans going on in TMA re: karate and kung fu discovering their groundfighting histories that were hidden in kata/forms, or straight up deceptions re: Korean martial arts like TKD and hapkido claiming ancient taekkyeon(sp?) roots despite the fact that both styles basically come from shotokan and daito-ryu. And that's more or less what I see the Tao quote referring to in my original post. Trading one mess for another and finding out it's the same damn thing! lol
7/9/11 10:27 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Missing Glove Tape
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/12/10
Posts: 5208
Just wanted to clarify that I'm not bashing the environment of MMA as proving ground or whatnot, nor am I saying the 4 piece puzzle is all bad and that because of the success of Silva, Machida and even Barboza re: flashy kicks people should run down to their local TMA schools so they can again feed their fantasyland mystic martial appetites. What I am saying, however, is that I see MMA having its own dogma and cookie-cutter approach to training the Tao quote warns against. Perhaps it's a question of resources and the disparities in coaching available to most people that accounts for why we(I) don't see completeness across ranges or the variety of techniques I'm referring to. But, the dogma is definitely there despite the fact that the environment of MMA is ready made for self-expression.
7/9/11 11:29 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Joe Maffei
32 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 736
Silly boys....Use both approaches and make up some new ones.
The newbie learns MMA the way it's taught to them. The vet after learning the basics ventures off to learn new thing to give him the edge and the element of surprise. The retired fighter keeps his training for recreation, health and just in case he really needs it .

People discuss and disagree because they are in different stages of learning/training and life. As Adam said "WINNING is everything and as such we will all look for any way to do that."
At my stage of life I look for ways at my age to survive the greatest fighters in the world, the GSP's the Brooks, the Rampages.

Because MMA is a simple format you now have to deal with the MAN. An that MAN has timing, power, endurance and an understanding of distance. I don't care what style you pick or what label you put on you will always have to deal with a MAN who possesses these qualities.

Talented and Great fighters at times lose to untalented tougher guys.
7/9/11 11:45 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Missing Glove Tape
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/12/10
Posts: 5212
While I can't agree that winning is 'everything' as it concerns confining dogma and limited techniques, I do however, agree that people begin and come to 'truth' at different stages of the game so faulting their current stage and methods/dogma is neither necessary or healthy. But at the same time, I don't think that has anything to do with acknowledging that dogma exists where (maybe) it shouldn't and that self-expression is something the individual should never forget to strive towards.
7/9/11 2:28 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Adam Singer
13 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/17/02
Posts: 2687
Here is the problem and why it is a circle already. I am a COACH, MMA is a sport. In all sports we do what it takes to win. It is simple.
Find something that we think might work. Trust me we dont care where it comes from
Test it under alive conditions
Did it work?
Add to game or throw away
Repeat
7/9/11 3:23 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Missing Glove Tape
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/12/10
Posts: 5213
Yes, but it still says nothing about the dogma that exists re: the 4 piece puzzle and techniques used in MMA.

My point is not that every fighter needs to be equally skilled in all ranges or that they should even want veer too far outside their individual strengths and body types, but rather the incompleteness in/of the ranges themselves that is dictated by the dogma that is brought into MMA by the 4 main styles. Meaning, why is it only now, nearly 20yrs since the first UFC, that we are beginning to see fighters with kicking games more developed than the 3 techniques I mentioned before? Why is Silva still the only fighter to really bring savate techniques in MMA? Why can I count on one hand the number of fighters who've thrown opponents *off* the cage rather than fighting (often in vain) for singles/doubles? Why is Cung Le really still the first/only guy in MMA to not only integrate throws into his striking game, but have developed his game enough to be able to throw people *off* of strikes?

Are such things purely an individual attribute issue that don't work for everyone under alive conditions, or are they actually commonplace in the arts/sports they come from which illustrates the confining dogma inherent in the 4 piece puzzle of MMA? Take a guy like Matt Mitrione for example, since I'm pretty sure he came into MMA as an athlete with no real martial arts background(I think he did karate for a couple of years as a young kid). Taking *absolutely nothing* away from him as a fighter or his game at this stage in his career, but I think he's a picture perfect example of the cookie-cutter approach to building an MMA fighter. Here's a big, athletic guy with heavy hands no doubt, but to look at his game you see the same things I've mentioned before. Rudimentary boxing, the same 3 kicks, no real wrestling beyond sprawling and singles/doubles, and your standard (basic) bjj game. Of course, there's nothing wrong any of that from a technical standpoint or for a relatively green fighter. But in my opinion there is something wrong with it from a dogmatic 'method' perspective that I think the Tao quote hits on the head.

But perhaps you're right and this conversation can't help but turn circular and bear no solid conclusions. Nevertheless, I've enjoyed the input and the dialogue from everyone. Thanks!
7/9/11 4:11 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Adam Singer
13 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/17/02
Posts: 2688
Twenty years is nothing in a sport. Twenty years ago college teams would have still run a triple wing. Now it's all spread. Twenty years, are you kidding me.

I am done. To much circle. You worry about "dogma" and I will worry about truth. Phone Post
7/9/11 4:54 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Missing Glove Tape
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/12/10
Posts: 5215
LOL. Wow!

You say you'll worry about truth but yet you can't refute what I say as being untrue. Once upon a time, did we *not* have the striking vs. grappling debates? Did people *not* say kicks didn't work (at all)? Then later, did they *not* say that high kicks didn't work? Do we *not* still have the judo vs. bjj and bjj vs. wrestling debates? People dismissing cacc out of hand? Yes??? That my friend is dogma and its confining effect is why (imo) there hasn't been more completeness across ranges and self-expression in MMA even in its brief history thus far.

But again, despite the circling and jab I've enjoyed the dialogue.
7/9/11 5:05 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Adam Singer
13 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/17/02
Posts: 2689
Once upon a time they took set shoots and ran the wing formation. Once upon a time they had no gloves, dunks were illegal. Once upon a time there was no dh, no closer. Once upon a time Jews were really great boxers. Phone Post
7/9/11 5:12 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Adam Singer
13 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/17/02
Posts: 2690
Competition = truth
Aliveness = truth
Winning = truth Phone Post
7/9/11 5:16 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Missing Glove Tape
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/12/10
Posts: 5216
And that's *still* saying nothing about the dogma.

There is a difference between things like rules/true innovation and dogmatic methods. Meaning, for example, back when people(mostly grapplers from the bjj/wrestling camps) were saying kicks didn't work, were they right? Had kicks *not* be developed to a functional level at that time? Or was the 'truth' actually more along the lines of Gracie/bjj propaganda saying they didn't that set into people's minds while contemporary combat sports like muay thai, savate, shooto, kyokushin, etc that had been around longer than a mere 20yrs were busy putting them to use?
7/9/11 5:30 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Adam Singer
13 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/17/02
Posts: 2691
I have made it as clear as I could. Sports have no dogma other than : do everything needed for success. That is why they evolve. In twenty years mma will look different than it does now. And I don't care where it comes from. I have trained two mma world champions. One of them won a title with brutal leg kicks, one of them never kicks. My next one might use capoeria.
I am out
Thank you
Adam Phone Post
7/9/11 5:44 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
BigSifu
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/29/09
Posts: 272
 Epic thread! In before the lock....
7/9/11 6:06 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Missing Glove Tape
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/12/10
Posts: 5217
This isn't the UG/OG. No reason it'd be locked. Just a conversation about a thought I've had banging around in my head, and regardless of how divided our viewpoints may be I appreciate that people would offer their input.
7/9/11 6:11 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Adam Singer
13 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/17/02
Posts: 2692
I would love to see some other people weigh in. The glasses I look through say sports on them.
Adam Phone Post
7/9/11 6:33 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Missing Glove Tape
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/12/10
Posts: 5218
Mind clarifying that last sentence? Because I don't recall mentioning an art/style lacking a sporting element or even making an argument against MMA in that context. It's not like I'm asking why stuff from 'dead' arts like x-blocks and limb destructions isn't seen in MMA. What I'm taking about is the completeness across ranges that is lacking due (mainly) to the 4 piece puzzle which, if that were not the case, would naturally result in a wider variety of techniques (from other combat sports) having been used over the years.
7/9/11 6:49 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Adam Singer
13 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/17/02
Posts: 2693
One more time. Just because we do something one way in a sport right now does not mean we won't change tomm or the next day. And sports Always evolve in fascinating ways. Phone Post
7/9/11 6:50 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Adam Singer
13 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/17/02
Posts: 2694
There is some athlete or coach working on something no one has ever seen before. Phone Post
7/9/11 7:17 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Missing Glove Tape
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/12/10
Posts: 5219
And I've already conceded that point. Whatever you call it, evolution, innovation, progression, etc, sports do change (for better or worse) over time. It's natural and healthy. But again, that fact itself is NOT my point nor the question I'm asking which you are (seemingly) avoiding.

Please tell me why styles like sanshou or savate, that are/were 100% functional combat sports going strong before the MMA boom hit, have been given little consideration until recently if what you say is true re: MMA being non-dogmatic in its pursuit of victory by any means available/possible. You can't because the *only* explanation is the dogma from the 4 piece puzzle being absorbed into the MMA culture(for lack of a better word).

I mean, it wasn't so long ago that TUF contestant Kyacey Uscola who got bit in the dick by a pit bull, landed a sweet chasse bas during his fight with Kris McCray(iirc), yet the consensus here(mma.tv) was that it was a cheap, dangerous, and/or illegal technique. Why? Simply because it does not feature in the ring style of muay thai, therefore it's not apart of the MMA consciousness/dogma that is the 4 piece puzzle except by the two(Uscola and Silva) who've used it.
7/9/11 9:39 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Adam Singer
13 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 3/17/02
Posts: 2695
I will have to wait until Monday to answer.
Adam Phone Post

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.