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JKD UnderGround >> Training Conundrum


7/11/11 6:53 PM
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Missing Glove Tape
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Will do.
7/11/11 8:36 PM
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Adam Singer
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Mgt
I will make you a deal. If you post a list of succinct questions that you would like answered. I will have a world class mma coach (me). Answer them.
Deal
Adam Phone Post
7/11/11 9:06 PM
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John Frankl
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Adam,

But that might put an end to lots of unproductive discussion...and what fun would that be:)

Okay, on a slightly more serious note, I do have a question for Adam and everyone else:

A few years ago there was some debate about the future of MMA. Roughly, the two camps were...

1. MMA is a new sport. That is the reason athletes with a base in wrestling, BJJ, kickboxing, ??? can still dominate once they acquire other skills. In the future, athletes who begin and end training in MMA will dominate.

2. MMA will always be dominated by athletes who have reached a very high level in one combat sport before branching out.

My own thoughts were and are that number 1 (with exceptions made for certain freak athletes that would dominate with either approach) is the case. I simply don't think a beginner can develop a truly excellent takedown game while someone is trying to punch him, nor can a striker become proficient while someone is trying to double leg him from day one.

Thoughts?
7/11/11 9:38 PM
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impactks
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Good question John. Phone Post
7/11/11 9:44 PM
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Adam Singer
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John, I dont think there is a standard blueprint. More importantly from what I have seen even if a person starts at zero, prior to having any real success the fighter will have to make at least 1 of the games a high level strength. At the top levels our champions are all world class athletes and a world class level in multiple games. A real strenght in one area (especially wrestling) makes it a lot easier to get there in standup and bjj. There are NO current UFC champions that did not have a Base in something first.
135 - Cruz - High school state champ wrestler (maybe the best MMA takedowns) - Has developed his own style of standup
145 - Aldo - BJJ blackbelt, Took to Thai very fast
155 - Edgar - National qualifier wrestler, BJJ brown, took very fast to boxing.
170 - GSP - GREAT athlete from a strong karate background. Has reached black belt and national level wrestling.
185 - anderson - Pro thai, blackbelt
205 - Jones - Juco allamerican wrestling. Sick athlete. Will become world class in bjj and standup over time.
Hwt - Cain - wrestling all american, developing very good striking and will be a BJJ black soon.

No matter what they started as they had to get that second game to be great. The third game will make them all timers.

For me I can work with either guy. Both the guys I have made into world champions have had limited backgrounds in anything. But both are phantastic athletes.

In the end the biggest evolution in MMA will take place when the future NFLs, NBAers, etc choose MMA at 13 instead of football and basketball. Until then I would rather have a young ex wrestler as my clay.

Sorry for the rant. I have hundreds of pages I could write on these topics. Thats why questions are easier for me to answer. They keep me on topic.LOL
7/11/11 9:48 PM
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Adam Singer
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"My own thoughts were and are that number 1 (with exceptions made for certain freak athletes that would dominate with either approach) is the case. I simply don't think a beginner can develop a truly excellent takedown game while someone is trying to punch him, nor can a striker become proficient while someone is trying to double leg him from day one."


John this is a different point. This is the question of how do we train the fighters. Do we have different classes for each range so they can learn the needed skills without fear then put it together or do we train them in "MMA" from day one. I will keep my answer to this one for now.
7/12/11 4:23 AM
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cfadeftac
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MGT,

I think we also have to acknowledge that Boxing, Wrestling, BJJ, and Thai were the most accesible ring arts that fit closely with MMA. In the main countries it developed. It is pretty difficult to find a legit Savate or Sanda coach in most areas and when MMA was developing it was even more so.

I think it is important to note that MMA will evolve because surprise techniques can be effective and as soon as they are introduced defences will be developed. Look at sport TKD when hands were de emphasized they developed more kicks, but since they had no ring speed was paramount (as well as the need to chase down an opponent with kicks), then they added armour and the shaking rule so power had to be re introduced. As rules evolve so will the sport and I agree with Rory any sport will always focus on winning, if an athlete finds in sparring that he can surprise his opponent with a handstand kick he will try them until the failure rate is too high and then he will go back to basics.

I have read that top level MMA guys do experiment with just about anything that comes along, but there are limits to training time and some techniques do not work well with some structures. In my limited experience Thai and Savate do not blend well because of the basic stance and strategy differences.

Just rambling

Andrew
7/12/11 12:31 PM
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John Frankl
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Thanks.
BTW, I brain farted. I meant to write I agree with number 2.
7/12/11 1:22 PM
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Adam Singer
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John,
I agree that number 2 is always going to be the easier path towards MMA success. THis will only change when those athletes choose MMA first. Its the same thing with soccer in this country. Take the running backs, wide receivers and corner backs playing in the NFL right now. Have them start soccer instead of football and we are the best country in the world (provided the right coaching and support).
Adam
7/12/11 8:34 PM
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Matt Thornton
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The form follows function principle Adam is advocating seems to be so foreign when contrasted with most "Martial Arts" that some folks just can't grasp it. Why on earth would all of us who are involved in Alive arts, combat sports, and sports in general, 'not' adopt a particular strategy, series of movements, or training method, if it meant more wins? It isn't about dogma, it is about function. I couldn't agree more with both Adam and Cane here. www.aliveness101.blogspot.com
7/14/11 7:40 AM
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Spartan79
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Mgt = noob just mho Phone Post
7/14/11 11:07 AM
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Joe Maffei
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No, Mgt may be a noob to sports but I think that when it comes to creative expression he may be right on.

Creative expression is individually based. Everyone has an opinion. I like the Savate kick, I think boxing should be used more, I like that painting, I like that song, love their pizza etc. There's no right and wrong, it's whatever you think...

Now sports is different, right and wrong is determined by the win /lose column...period.
Many athletes forget this when they lose a decision, leaving it up to the judges to give "their" opinion. That's why you never leave it up to the judges.

RBSD and sports have much more in common then most think, why? it's also determined by the win/lose = live/die column. And as the athlete does, the RBSD fighter also will do anything to win. including testing their empty hand gross motor skills in a safe arena (MMA) prior to testing it on the battle field.
7/14/11 12:38 PM
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BigSifu
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Edited: 07/14/11 12:39 PM
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Joe Maffei - No, Mgt may be a noob to sports but I think that when it comes to creative expression he may be right on.

Creative expression is individually based. Everyone has an opinion. I like the Savate kick, I think boxing should be used more, I like that painting, I like that song, love their pizza etc. There's no right and wrong, it's whatever you think...

Now sports is different, right and wrong is determined by the win /lose column...period.
Many athletes forget this when they lose a decision, leaving it up to the judges to give "their" opinion. That's why you never leave it up to the judges.

RBSD and sports have much more in common then most think, why? it's also determined by the win/lose = live/die column. And as the athlete does, the RBSD fighter also will do anything to win. including testing their empty hand gross motor skills in a safe arena (MMA) prior to testing it on the battle field.

 This gets my seal of approval...

Btw,I would've watched this more,but I was out hiking/picniking w/the wife & kids. Way better for my stress levels than reading this thread... 
7/14/11 12:44 PM
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Spartan79
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Fair enough. My comment really comes from preveious debates.;-) Phone Post
7/22/11 10:41 AM
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Adam Singer
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Y4L.
1. We spend NO time exploring arts that are outside of the effective delivery systems we use. Why would we? My guys win a lot more than they loss. However if someone used a technique in MMA that was effective we would look to either incorporate or counter it. Or both. I am not saying that those arts might not have something to offer but in my experience effective techniques of dead arts exist in our common delivery systems. Show me two Akido guys having a "no rules" fight and I will show you bad Kick boxing.

2. We spend all our time here. Just like in Football where you constantly refine your passing game, running game, 2 min offense. Etc.

As an answer to your question: This is my lifelong pursuit. But not in the sense of NEW techniques. Because there really are NO NEW techniques. Its all about application. My gyms standup game looks nothing like it did even 3 years ago. Why? More influence of the Dutch STYLE. And seeing the evolution of movement and distancing. And this is where this entire thread went off track for me. Who cares where something comes from. We all have 2 legs/2 arms. There is no dogma. I could care less about other "arts." What there is, is thousands of fights and millions of man hours of training. If there is a technique from an alive art that works under 100% stress than we investigate it.

I am more than willing to continue any discussions on this topic but please format anything you would like my response to in a q&a format.

Adam
7/22/11 11:53 AM
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Joe Maffei
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If you guys are into sport fighting you should listen to Adam, that's what he does.
If you are into self defense ask someone else questions. You don't ask a chef about plumbing.
7/22/11 2:55 PM
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Matt Thornton
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I was just thinking, if I could attack anyone on the street, a trained expert with decades of experience, highly skilled at fighting standing, in the clinch, and on the ground, like Adam, would be top of my list. It would be just like asking a chef to fix a toilet; great point! It is that kind of lucid thinking that keep martial arts moving forward.
7/22/11 4:05 PM
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Radd
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Here is one thing Matt that caught me by surprise.

Lee Morrison does a drill where after you hit someone and the person has been knocked out, he rushes in to either hug or underhook the ko'ed person because the assumption is the landing could cause severe injury - even a fatality -- when the ground is concrete.

You can take two moves from MMA here: a cross and an underhook for the above scenario. Most people including myself never thought about the potential traumatic brain injury could result on the landing and the serious legal problems that could arise.

So, folks that do invest time in more self-defense specific issues may have different tips, insights, and perspectives that we don't immediately think of until someone points it out.

7/22/11 4:22 PM
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Matt Thornton
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There are things to consider in any situation. However, I can assure you that is what you are doing is actually functional, then the Aliveness training methodology and the core deliver systems used, will not change. Each profession will have different objectives, equipment, and considerations; but that doesn't rationalize the street versus sport fallacy.
7/22/11 4:29 PM
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Adam Singer
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Street vs sport is about intent. Phone Post
7/22/11 4:34 PM
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Matt Thornton
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Absolutely.
7/22/11 4:46 PM
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Radd
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What I generally recommend to people seeking reality based self defense is to put most emphasis on evasion, escape, and avoidance as opposed to actual physical confrontation UNLESS you have no choice in the matter. Any physical confrontation in an uncontrolled environment is DANGEROUS and potentially life changing and life threatening. You must use judgment in such situations.

Much of what is taught as "self defense" is actually aggravated assault. I'm telling you, you are going to get in trouble when go down this route and if anyone serious about learning self-defense better understand that and start understanding it YESTERDAY.



7/22/11 5:44 PM
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impactks
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Adam, I would love to get more insight into the evolution of your gym and training. Is it more training method related or technique based?

Do you find that you are more likely to "stumble" across improvements through training or is it watching/analyzing numerous fights and then application? Phone Post
7/22/11 7:52 PM
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Joe Maffei
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Matt LOL common man I'm trying to help out Adam here bro. no lucid thinking dude...;-)
Adams talking about the sport of MMA, he lives it, combat sports, athletes, football,you know that. He is asking for a Q & A on what he loves The sport of MMA . Please don't bring that street /self defense thing back into this again Let Adam do what he has been trying to do for this entire thread. the training methods used in every sport. amd how athletes adhere and evolve from those time tested training methods.

impsctkt has a good question for him.
But like I said, if you want to talk MMA with a guy who lives for sport, Adam is the man, thats his thing. Jf you want to talk RBSD see someone like Massad Ayoob with lethal Force institute that's his thing.
7/22/11 7:57 PM
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Matt Thornton
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No worries, I can't take the concept of street versus sport seriously.

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