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JKD UnderGround >> Training Conundrum


7/22/11 8:45 PM
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cfadeftac
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I think that the main thing to remember is street will never be as pure or simple as sport. Adam says it well when he points out that the only objective for a MMA fighter is to win; this is a beautiful thing and leads to probably the best soloutions to winning within the parameters of whatever sport you choose and I fully beleive that any MMA coach who comes across something that works for his sport will adopt it immediately.

The main difference for the "street" is the definition of a win is different for every situation. I really like that drill from Lee Morrison, he was a bouncer wasn't he?, since it actually helps achieve one win (no homicide charge).

Andrew
7/22/11 9:05 PM
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Adam Singer
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Thanks Joe Phone Post
7/22/11 9:18 PM
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Adam Singer
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Is it more training method related or technique based?

I would say that the training method and competition push the evolution. There are really a finite number of techniques that work in an alive setting. However the application of these evolve and adapt. Its funny because today I took a private with my old Thai Coach. He is hardcore into the harder styles of Thai boxing. Although some of what he worked with me I have seen before he just applied it differently. We talked about evolution in sports. He told me that in Bangkok its rare to see guys kick the legs because everyone can defend it. But in ten years guys wont be able to defend it as well (from lack of seeing it) and therefore it will make a comeback.

Do you find that you are more likely to "stumble" across improvements through training or is it watching/analyzing numerous fights and then application?

Watching and analyzing as well as seeking people out. Back to my sports references, but its not uncommon for coaches from one college to visit another to learn a new system. Its also very common for coaches to visit a high school with an innovative coach. If we just close the doors in the room and try to evolve we get incestuous.
7/22/11 9:25 PM
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Radd
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The main differences to be explored in the street vs. sport argumnent should surround on legal issues, environmental concerns, psychological profiles of different predators and their motivations, and the like.

It is also necessary to examine what led up to the violence. Unless you have been ambushed, you could have likely avoided things. Even then, there are ambush situations that could be avoided such as walking up to an ATM in a desolate area at 1am.

Of course, when violence is unavoidable, you must not be on the losing end due to the potential serious risks present in such a scenario.
7/23/11 8:04 PM
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Radd
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"But I have no desire to prove it, since the art's practitioners gained a reputation in full contact kickboxing competitions and public challenge matches long before Maeda met the Gracies. It was even made the basis for close quarter combat training in the Chinese army (before world War II)."

Hsing I is among the category of holistic and internal arts so it is likely derived from something from Chinese military. Hsing I as the art you are seeing is probably far removed from the origins you are describing.

Actually, many Chinese martial arts derive from classical military training. However, the common forms of the martial arts we are familiar with have been altered dramatically to hide the original movements and to create the "style" which is intended to be the gateway to the origins of the art. This was the common cultural approach in Chinese martial arts over many hundreds of years.

The idea of creating a secret art deriving from military or sportive origins likely originated from the notion that arrest was likely if it was assumed that your were training to fight because you were plotting against the emperor because in the 14th century leaders did have to seriously worry about assasinations.

When you jump hundreds of years later to the 19th century, these arts became part of the cultural landscape and where a traditional "secret" passed down to friends and family.

You can't remove an art from, say, 800 years ago without examining it in its historical context.

7/23/11 11:58 PM
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markijkd
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Wow,

Great thread! I want to bring up the adrenal dump thing that can overload us both in sport and street.

In my limited street encounters, the dump always happend after the fight. In the ring, (KB) it usually came in the form of dejavu/slow mo after having received a heavy blow that didn't drop me.

It appears that this adrenalin dump is different for everyone... I have always thought that to reduce/prolong the dump is better than relying on gross motor skills during the dump...

Your thoughts?

M...
7/24/11 10:13 AM
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Demitrius Barbito
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Yoshida4Life - I am wondering if, perhaps, the fact that one is in a life or death situation makes a difference to how one's body moves and reacts to stimuli. If that is true (and it sounds plausible to me), then sport techniques may not transfer all that well tolife or death situations.

I am not making any dogmatic claims here, just wondering out aloud, and hoping that this will turn out to be a frutiful line of inquiry.

The total opposite is true.

Since sport thechs can be trained progressivly all the way to full contact they can be trained AND USED commonly under the adrenal dump.

Life or death teachs, such as eye gouging and going for the groin or throat CAN NEVER actually be trained. They are always simulated. SO if you simply "attach" them to the sport end of things you get better function.
7/24/11 10:27 AM
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Joe Maffei
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We are all over the place here guys and very tough to stay on track so.
Hsing yi
human response
MMA
Life/death

Sometimes this is why folks start disagreeing. In the end it all becomes ONE, in the end, but when staring we come from different spokes on the wheel. As one of the ref's out here I suggest one spoke at a time or new threads.
Just my 2 cents
7/24/11 11:46 AM
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impactks
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Another question for Adam...

How do you incorporate weight training with your fighters? Is it more of a circuit style training (higher reps, lower weight, shorter rest periods) or something else?

Do you do the traditional strength lifts or something else?

Thanks in advance for your answers! Phone Post
7/24/11 12:43 PM
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Radd
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I meant CMA in general and not just Hsing I.
8/7/11 9:05 PM
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Seul
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Many sport techniques are completely and purely applicable for self-defense/"combat"; as mentioned before, the difference is intent. The difference between choking someone into submission, choking them unconscious, and killing them is intent. The technique used can be identical. Phone Post

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