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JKD UnderGround >> Initial basic elements to teach


8/12/11 3:38 PM
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jrrrrr
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To keep up some MA relevant threads, I'm starting this one.

If someone comes to you to train, what elements would you want the person to have in say the first month of training?

example, when I am working with people, I'll do a lot of weight shifting drills.
This is so that they feel the ground under them and how to create power from the ground. From there I'll work with them on punching or kicking, always getting the person to feel that connection. From there I'll do more stance work and footwork.

what would you do?
8/12/11 3:47 PM
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jrrrrr
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ttt
8/12/11 5:21 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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It has always proven beneficial to explain to persons that "just because they are training MMA/JKD/Boxing etc. that they should not do things, go places etc. that they wouldn't have done otherwise".
8/12/11 7:19 PM
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Adam Singer
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Boxing, wrestling, bjj Phone Post
8/12/11 8:21 PM
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BshMstr
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jrrrrr - To keep up some MA relevant threads, I'm starting this one.

If someone comes to you to train, what elements would you want the person to have in say the first month of training?

example, when I am working with people, I'll do a lot of weight shifting drills.
This is so that they feel the ground under them and how to create power from the ground. From there I'll work with them on punching or kicking, always getting the person to feel that connection. From there I'll do more stance work and footwork.

what would you do?


-get used to getting hit

-learn a jab

-learn to strike and move

-learn to sprawl

8/12/11 8:53 PM
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jrrrrr
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Are there basic concepts/principles that you would hammer in that first month when the person is most open to ideas/training?
8/14/11 4:47 AM
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FatBuddha
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That's a good one Demi

I would teach them about sudden attacks when standing and talking face to face with someone (sucker punch, push, tackle, etc.) before it ever gets to the two people in a fighting stance situation. On the ground, I would focus on defending chokes and punches from guard bottom and mount bottom. I would also teach how to control mount top and the lion killer (rear naked) choke.
8/14/11 10:22 AM
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Demitrius Barbito
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FatBuddha - That's a good one Demi

I would teach them about sudden attacks when standing and talking face to face with someone (sucker punch, push, tackle, etc.) before it ever gets to the two people in a fighting stance situation. On the ground, I would focus on defending chokes and punches from guard bottom and mount bottom. I would also teach how to control mount top and the lion killer (rear naked) choke.
That's cool that you mentioned the "lion killer". Not everybody knows that reference...
 
8/14/11 1:24 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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FatBuddha - That's a good one Demi

I would teach them about sudden attacks when standing and talking face to face with someone (sucker punch, push, tackle, etc.) before it ever gets to the two people in a fighting stance situation. On the ground, I would focus on defending chokes and punches from guard bottom and mount bottom. I would also teach how to control mount top and the lion killer (rear naked) choke.

Agree. I struggled for the longest time on what to teach Women's Self Defense. It's really simple when you figure it out, but hard to conceptualize if you don't make the right framework.

1. Teach defense of the rape position - that's right ladies, you have to learn to control the opponent in your guard.
2. Teach them CM boxing for -defense-. Forget striking at first. Teach them the weave and liver strike, not some stupid poke out their eyes BS.
3. When their defensive shell is good, teach them how to fight in close, trip and takedown or pull guard to a triangle. Some me gravitate to this some may not.
4. It's partly with women to give them permission to be aggro and hit someone or counter-aggress. They may have all the 'tools' but lack the attitude. I think model mugging training is a good adjunct here.
5. Women are not durable and don't have big hands. That's why I de-emphasize striking.
6. Emphasize, 'if you're serious' learn to run/sprint, do burst training and get and learn to fight with a handgun, carry OC-spray and a tac light or tazer and learn to use them against resisting opponents (see Demi's stuff on OC training).

...and so forth. You have to adapt the training to the person, not the person to your training plan. So you have to have the ability to analyze the person's capabilities, weaknesses and holes in their system. Teach them 'how to train' and how to self-coach and you're good.

$0.02

8/15/11 12:10 AM
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John Frankl
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Avoid avoidable problems.

Avoid avoidable bad places, people, situations.

Eat a paleo (esque) diet.

Sleep 8-9 hours per night in a pitch black room.

Lose the gut.

Then we'll talk about your chances of being mugged, raped, etc. Most people kill themselves through crap habits and lifestyle. Very few are killed in situations wher a good jab or sprawl would have saved them.
8/15/11 1:26 PM
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shoe
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Excellent point about the primacy of general health. For most of us, the first and last attack we ever suffer, will be a heart attack. I would add some basic fitness work. Nothing quite like seeing Sensi Jiggle Jaws saying "and then i would just run away"
"Okee dokee, sir, could you demo that ?"

Long silence as the man in the XXXL Gi looks down at where his feet might be...
8/17/11 8:56 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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 We may have gotten away from jrrrrr's question.

What would you teach.

I would like to teach:
1. How to learn, how to research, how to research your own experience;
2. How to analyze things in tactical terms;
3. How to develop frameworks. Once you understand frameworks you can find a lot of 'solutions' to many things, including SD;
4. How to be your own coach;
5. How to motivate yourself;
6. How to define basic terms in relation to other terms. For example 1+2=3. 3=2-1; 1+2/3=3/3 (dividing each side by 3). Now in algebra we substitute to get solutions. 1+2=(2-1) (see above where we redefine 3). You can do this in MA also. I see a basic technique happening in grappling, I try to find this technique in striking. Example: In grappling 'position before submission' and 'making space' are valuable concepts. I try to find these concepts in striking. I try to look deeply and not shallowly when I make these redifinitions.

Another example is redefining a martial art in terms of its ranges of fighting.
Judo=throwing, grip fighting, single and double collar tie ups, foot sweeps, body clashing, tackling, takedowns, ground fighting, limb strangulations, wrenches, levers, pinches (slicers), atemi, and a lot of other things we don't normally see in tournaments. Judoists, by defining their sport in a limited way, back in the 70s took a back seat to 'karate'. But it's actually a more dynamic art/range.

Wrestling was also like this. Only a few people knew that back in the heyday of Karate that wrestlers would probably whip most karate BB's asses easily. Nor did they know why. If 'karate guys' really knew that wrestlers were that tough and had that much to offer they might have gone over and tried to train with them. By redefining and examining what they were really doing, how effectively they were training and why, they could have learned that well in advance of the UFC (some did).

7. Another thing is the psychology of fighting and of contesting and winning and losing. An underdeveloped area. How do we develop formidable psycological attributes?

8. Mastering yourself. What does this mean and how do we do it? (hint: developing good habits, self-talk, experience and force-on-force psychology - we develop it under stress, not sitting in a lotus position).

9. How to see 'deeply' into a subject. How to go back to original sources, how to use math and physics and other frameworks to transform your vision of self and your capabilities?

10. How to make the general specific and the specific general - how to see 'through' things (like analyzing stage magic tricks).

Just some random thoughts...

8/18/11 4:32 AM
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John Frankl
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Here is the actual question:

"If someone comes to you to train, what elements would you want the person to have in say the first month of training?"

Widespread, Your list is absolutely fantastic. But it may take a bit more than a month, more than a lifetime for most.
8/18/11 8:06 AM
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BigSifu
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 What I am doing right now is getting in shape. I've been getting lazy,all the technique won't help without fitness. So the first month would be spent on things that are sport specific for martial arts (combat athletics).
8/18/11 9:33 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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John Frankl - Here is the actual question:

"If someone comes to you to train, what elements would you want the person to have in say the first month of training?"

Widespread, Your list is absolutely fantastic. But it may take a bit more than a month, more than a lifetime for most.

What I have learned recently is that it's not the 'what', it's the 'how'. I'd invite everyone to look at my list, make up their own comparable list and/or answer my list in their own minds and then research more of the same.

How do you learn to become your own coach?
1. Coaching is about collecting data, being consistent, resolving errors, finding where you excel and enhancing that, being objective about your abilities while not being 'negative', finding trends. How do you collect data? Journaling, videotaping and watching your performance (need a buddy or a tripod). How do you be consistent?

Being consistent involves setups.
1. Get your gear out the night before and get dressed in your stuff when you get up;
2. Have a training buddy;
3. Have a 'terrible purpose';
4. Do your supplemental stuff, and access the synergy effect;
5. Have some base training you can do every day (cycling, swimming, walking);
6. Self-talk (no negative tapes, no 'I can't' internal or external dialog;
7. Have back up gear (an extra bicycle if you wake up and have a flat);
8. Don't make any one session too hard so that you end up dreading the next workout;
9. Compete against yourself, but don't go too far out there during normal phase training;
10. Find your peaks (due to journaling) and push yourself past your expectations once in a while (4x/year);
11. Document, film, journal, talk, self-talk, include good diet and vitamins;
12. Emphasize recovery above training (sleep, nutrition, good company);
13. Train as though you are your idol, be your idol, live the life and soon your fantasy will become you;
14. Do what you can to decrease the negative inertia (it's raining, I feel crappy - just say "I'll do 15 minutes and if I still feel bad, I'll go home". 99% of the time I feel better and keep going).
...and so on.

If I get up and put on my bibs and jersy and cycling socks and cleats, eat, journal, surf, I will eventually get out there and do my workout. Only twice in 5 years did I get dressed in my gear and not work out and I do it 6-7 days a week. Because I can recover from my base training within 6 hours, I can work out about 7-12 times per week (sometimes do two-a-days with a nap in between in season).

Many people feel you have to go 'ball-to-the-wall' and you do, but it's a pyramid - you build up to it, taper and then go back to base building. BUT you don't know when you're peaking unless you are out there every day doing base, AND you journal and track your peaks. I know I have 4 major peaks per year (I still can't quite predict them).

Learn how to taper (backing off when in heavy training before an event, causing supercompensation).

Just some ideas...

So go take my list or your own version and answer those questions. Learn to deep vertical analyse stuff - you get better with practice.

8/18/11 3:23 PM
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jrrrrr
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wow widespread..you took my basic question and ran with it... thank you
8/19/11 2:31 AM
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keseki
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Edited: 08/20/11 3:58 AM
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.
8/19/11 9:46 AM
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Joe Maffei
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WP you are light years away from 98% of the heads out here, nothing personal guys, but he is. WP has a system for himself, links, a connection of parts. Analyze and evaluation plan. What he said is not confusing or complex to someone who does the same, hence the name...."widespread". John's points are valid as well, but also common sense taught to your 5 year old, what does that tell most???

Anyway great thread but don't expect copping WP format that is something that has been developing for a long time leading to his recent revelation. People have to find their own JKD and the clues lie way beyond just MA or MMA.

Anyone who tells you this is the way does not know the way. An accumulation of trial and error knowledge across the board from specialist leads you to internal truths. Truth is truth. I watched sons of guns the other night and they brought in the kid from American chopper. who gave mechanical advice for a gun, why????? truth is truth across the board. That advice could have been dismissed as "get out of here kid that ain't no bike"

Jrrrr that was a good feed..
8/19/11 10:57 PM
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keseki
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Edited: 08/20/11 3:58 AM
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8/22/11 2:36 AM
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John Frankl
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"John's points are valid as well, but also common sense taught to your 5 year old, what does that tell most???"

I wish it were true, Joe, but it isn't.

For just one example, the FDA recommends a high-carb, low fat diet that makes you fat and sick.
8/24/11 3:21 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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One thing that BL often said and I'm paraphrasing. "My system is not your system'. What works for you can not be taught to you by mimicking someone else. Their attributes are different. Except for a few (Matt Thornton) almost all of his 'disciples' have forgotten that.

However, I can still go back to Guro Dan's points -
o Research your own experience (how?);
o Absorb/Find what is useful (but useful for what?);
o Discard what isn't working for you (working in the 'now'; but it may work in the future);
o Have specific short term, medium term and long term goals - (these can seem to conflict).

But 'life' is not about blindly following aphorisms. Get up and look around - see what you're missing by "experiencing".

I would add that feedback is key, the more exquisite and directed to your systems the better. But you must go out and act - you can not develop in isolation. Also key is specificity. Be durable, know how to endure, make weak things stronger, close the holes in your system (learn to spot the holes), use 'overlapping' systems (the concept of 'cross training' is one - what are others?), have redundancy. Understand the concept of a 'force multiplier' and don't use it incorrectly.

What is 'dogma' today is BS tomorrow - figure out why.

Look for the close up view, the intermediate view and the 10,000 foot view. Have a point of view, then change it. We ALL can become myopic (only see the close up view).

Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. For example a 'higher' carb, lower fat diet has some application, but is it in a transition phase.
1. Lower carb transitions to lower calorie which transitions to lower fat, which transitions to higher carbs. All the while protein must be within a narrow range;
2. You can't cut protein much - you'll go into catabolism;
3. If you know your body, know your intake (tracking) you can alter three items. Carbs, Fat, Calories. Each must be in a fairly narrow range for a specific activity at a specific time.

For example the Tour de France riders are doing very high calorie, very high carbs (relatively speaking). Why? Their expenditure for those 21 days is >10,000 calories/day. Their systems can not tolerate much beyond soft foods and 'Gu' (syrupy gel) because (during the four to six hour race) the blood flow is being directed away from the digestive system. After the race is over they must transition back to higher protein to rebuild lost muscle (or take steroids and ergogenic aids) and they must have some fat to keep from getting diarrhea.

...just some random thought. Good thread.
8/24/11 3:31 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 08/24/11 3:38 AM
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What are overlapping systems and redundancy.

I'll apply it to combat pistolcraft, personal and household and car safety.

I have (for example) an alarm system. But what if I fail to set it? I add a loud dog; I add outdoor lighting; I add motion detection, I add fencing and a gated community; I add robust windows and doors in my home; I add inaccessibility (like a moat or an embankment or a hilltop); I add 'always lock the doors'; I add handguns and edged weapons and training force-on-force; I add the training to all family members; I add teamwork (two people carrying, like husband and wife, cop and partner. Figure out what layers are available to you now.

One of these systems may fail, but it's unlikely all will fail at the same time (in a normal situation).

In my EDC, one might have a flashlight with >100 lumens, a cell phone, OC spray, a camera, a folding knife, a 'fake' wallet, a laser (pointer or handgun laser), a cane, a car with self-locking doors. What are the limitations?

Any one system can fail, you might forget something, it might not be feasible to carry at a particular time. Now add a partner who is similarly equipped. Both cell phones are unlikely to fail at the same time. Two people with good SA (Situational Awareness) are more than twice as good as one person (except when it's not). Both are unlikely to forget to carry or leave their wallet at home. A sniper needs himself and a spotter (delivery system). It's just more robust (but not foolproof) than non-redundant systems. But even redundancy has a failure point

Your systems must be 'transparent' - you must be able to apply them without undue complexity. You can't have such a large handgun/flashlight/knife that you just stop carrying it. A smaller HG in loser caliber can be a problem. So you carry (for example) a .380 BUG semi-auto, your partner carries a revolver and a BUG (Back Up Gun). Both might run out of ammo, so you carry a knife or knives. You have a folder, partner a fixed blade. Maybe one of you has one or more throwaway weapons (it's not always about carrying a Kimber and a Damascus blade, (lol)). You must have non-lethal options (Spray, combat light, taser, etc.) sometimes you can't use the lethal option right away.

These are examples. Seek your own areas of redundancy, transparency, over-lapping systems. Understand the delivery system of your regime. it's all about the 'how', not the 'what'.

...more random thoughts at Oh-three dot thirty, lol.
8/24/11 8:43 AM
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Paul Hopkins
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guy started with me two weeks ago. he has been weeding my garden. once that is done i will have him painting my house. in time he will understand
8/24/11 11:14 AM
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John Frankl
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Paul, But can he cook?

WP, Are you a big fan of "Dr. Strangelove"?
8/24/11 11:26 AM
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John Frankl
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"Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater."

Totally agree.

"For example a 'higher' carb, lower fat diet has some application, but is it in a transition phase.
1. Lower carb transitions to lower calorie which transitions to lower fat, which transitions to higher carbs. All the while protein must be within a narrow range;
2. You can't cut protein much - you'll go into catabolism;"

You totally lost me here. 1)Plenty of ways to stay high calorie and low carb. 2)You can cut protein quite a bit. Do a search on the Katavans.

"3. If you know your body, know your intake (tracking) you can alter thre"e items. Carbs, Fat, Calories. Each must be in a fairly narrow range for a specific activity at a specific time."

Not sure why this would be true at all. Eating "paleo"--that is focusing on food quality rather than calories and macronutrients--yields excellent results. Of course, from there you can adjust your fuel mixture depending on type, intensity, and duration of activity for even better results.

"For example the Tour de France riders are doing very high calorie, very high carbs (relatively speaking). Why? Their expenditure for those 21 days is >10,000 calories/day. Their systems can not tolerate much beyond soft foods and 'Gu' (syrupy gel) because (during the four to six hour race) the blood flow is being directed away from the digestive system."

Used to carry potatoes in their pockets, before Gu and all that. Basically all are on drugs. Check Loren Cordain and Joe Friel for other ways to do the endurance thing.

"After the race is over they must transition back to higher protein to rebuild lost muscle (or take steroids and ergogenic aids) and they must have some fat to keep from getting diarrhea."

Many don't do high protein, ever. Virtually all are on drugs, before, during, and after. Too much fat also give you diarrhea.

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