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HolyGround >> who is going to hell?


10/17/11 2:12 AM
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Juijitsuboxer
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Polycarp’s Letter to the Philippians with New Testament Scriptural Annotations

The Apostle John, appointed as one of the original apostles by Jesus of Nazareth, appears to be the last one to die. He also was the last one to write of any of the books included in the New Testament canon. The literature places his death about CE 96.

According to Tertullian, Polycarp of Smyrna was a disciple of the Apostle John (Tertullian, Liber de praescriptione haereticorum) and Irenaeus (Irenaeus, Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus). Irenaeus reports that the apostles appointed Polycarp as the overseer of the Church in Smyrna (Ibid).

Polycarp was a major leader, if not the most important one, of the Christian church in the 2nd century. Although based in Asia Minor, he was the first known Christian leader to go to Rome for the express purpose of denouncing various heretics/heresies and to turn people back to the true Christian church (Ibid and Irenaeus, Adversus Haeres, Bk. III). Polycarp, according to Irenaeus, denounced the heretics Marcion and Valentinus as well as pointing out errors of the Bishop of Rome (Ibid).

Despite his influence, only one document written by Polycarp remains. Commonly known as Polycarp’s Letter to the Philippians, or The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians, it dates to ca. CE 110-135). One of the letters more remarkable aspects is its clear demonstration of Polycarp’s heavy reliance on the New Testament.

While different theologians have varying views on the number of New Testament books that Polycarp either quotes or alludes to, it seems that in his small letter he alludes to Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Philemon, Hebrews, James, 1 & 2 Peter, 1,2,&3 John, Jude, and Revelation—which is to say, all of the 27 books of the New Testament.


Polycarp 2:1

"Wherefore, girding up your loins," "serve the Lord in fear" and truth, as those who have forsaken the vain, empty talk and error of the multitude, and "believed in Him who raised up our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead, and gave Him glory," and a throne at His right hand. To Him all things" in heaven and on earth are subject. Him every spirit serves. He comes as the Judge of the living and the dead. His blood will God require of those who do not believe in Him.
10/17/11 1:22 PM
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colubrid1
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John 3:36

Interesting this comes right after the infamous John 3:16

John 3:36
he who beleives in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not "OBEY" the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides "on" him.

repentence, obedience, wrath....why are these mentioned so many times if God did not call us to those things?

the gates are narrow. I personally think that many 'so called" christians will end up not making it because they use their grace card and ignore Hell and His wrath .
10/18/11 9:20 PM
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reverend john
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never met anyone who used the term "so called christians" who didn't think that meant those other people. God's wrath is different than what we expect, just like God's salvation was different than what was expected in the Messiah.

rev
10/18/11 10:18 PM
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Workman
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Hi John,

It has been a while. I hope all is well with you and your family.

I'd love to hear more about the subject of hell as you understanding it according to the Bible.

Do you think that 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 explains God's wrath?

If not, then what passages would you cite to illustrate God's wrath?

And what are the criteria that determines who receives God's wrath?

I look forward to your answers.
10/21/11 9:25 AM
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reverend john
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That does indeed describe it, but what does it mean? The Jews thought they knew what the Messiah meant, but they were wrong weren't they? Who responded? uneducated, non scribal people, who themselves didn't understand, and felt like the Jesus was actually not the Messiah when he was crucified. What we figure out about God is not always what we get, is this not shown to be true in history? or are we better than they?

But let me ask you a question. When Isaiah proclaimed God's wrath, how was it fulfilled?

rev
10/21/11 11:56 PM
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Workman
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Hey John,

Thanks for responding.

Just to confirm; so you so think that Jesus will return to take "vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"?

And you do believe that Jesus will punish unbelievers "with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"?

As for your question; are you referring to Isaiah 34, Isaiah 61....? Please specify with a chapter and verse(s).
10/22/11 7:15 AM
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JesusTapped
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Verse wars.

The battle for the better believer. Phone Post
10/22/11 8:24 AM
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Juijitsuboxer
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Information on Apocalypse of Peter (Akhmim)

C. Detlef G. Müller writes (New Testament Apocrypha, vol. 2, p. 622):

Period of origin and circulation: we do not know the original text of the Apocalypse of Peter. The translation below makes it clear that the Greek and Ethiopic texts frequently diverge from one another. The Ethiopic version contains a series of linguistic obscurities which are evidently to be traced back to lacunae and defects in the transmission of the text. In this respect it deserves attention that Clement of Alexandria regards the Apocalypse of Peter as Holy Scriptures (cf. Euseb. HE VI 14.1), which is proof of an origin at least in the first half of the 2nd century. The terminus a quo can be more precisely determined through the time of origin of 4 Est. (about 100 A.D.), which was probably used in the Apocalypse of Peter (cf. 4 Est. with c. 3), and 2 Peter, the priority of which was demonstrated by F. Spitta. We thus come, with H. Weinel, to approximately the year 135 as the probable time of origin, if in interpreting the parable of the fig-tree in c. 2 we also relate the Jewish Antichrist who persecutes the Christians to Bar Cochba.

The Apocalypse presumably came into being in Egypt (cf. Clement of Alexandria); the reference to the Egyptian worship of animals also points in this direction, in so far as this passage belongs to the original content. In this connection however we must refer above al to the ancient Egyptian Peter tradition (cf. esp. Berger, 275). Starting from a first rendering into Coptic, the Ethiopic translation probably came into being - as usual - though the medium of Arabic versions. To this extent our Ethiopic text, linguistically not altogether unexceptionable, is only the last in a series, with all the imponderables that entails.
10/22/11 8:25 AM
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Juijitsuboxer
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THE APOCALYPSE OF PETER

1 . . . . many of them will be false prophets, and will teach divers ways and doctrines of perdition: but these will become sons of perdition. 3. And then God will come unto my faithful ones who hunger and thirst and are afflicted and purify their souls in this life; and he will judge the sons of lawlessness.

4. And furthermore the Lord said: Let us go into the mountain: Let us pray.. And going with him, we, the twelve disciples, begged that he would show us one of our brethren, the righteous who are gone forth out of the world, in order that we might see of what manner of form they are, and having taken courage, might also encourage the men who hear us.

6. And as we prayed, suddenly there appeared two men standing before the Lord towards the East, on whom we were not able to look; 7, for there came forth from their countenance a ray as of the sun, and their raiment was shining, such as eye of man never saw; for no mouth is able to express or heart to conceive the glory with which they were endued, and the beauty of their appearance. 8. And as we looked upon them, we were astounded; for their bodies were whiter than any snow and ruddier than any rose; 9, and the red thereof was mingled with the white, and I am utterly unable to express their beauty; 10, for their hair was curly and bright and seemly both on their face and shoulders, as it were a wreath woven of spikenard and divers-coloured flowers, or like a rainbow in the sky, such was their seemliness.

11. Seeing therefore their beauty we became astounded at them, since they appeared suddenly. 12. And I approached the Lord and said: Who are these? 13. He saith to me: These are your brethren the righteous, whose forms ye desired to see. 14. And I said to him: And where are all the righteous ones and what is the aeon in which they are and have this glory?

15. And the Lord showed me a very great country outside of this world, exceeding bright with light, and the air there lighted with the rays of the sun, and the earth itself blooming with unfading flowers and full of spices and plants, fair-flowering and incorruptible and bearing blessed fruit. 16. And so great was the perfume that it was borne thence even unto us. 17. And the dwellers in that place were clad in the raiment of shining angels and their raiment was like unto their country; and angels hovered about them there. 18. And the glory of the dwellers there was equal, and with one voice they sang praises alternately to the Lord God, rejoicing in that place. 19. The Lord saith to us: This is the place of your high-priests, the righteous men.

20. And over against that place I saw another, squalid, and it was the place of punishment; and those who were punished there and the punishing angels had their raiment dark like the air of the place.

21. And there were certain there hanging by the tongue: and these were the blasphemers of the way of righteousness; and under them lay fire, burning and punishing them. 22. And there was a great lake, full of flaming mire, in which were certain men that pervert righteousness, and tormenting angels afflicted them.

23. And there were also others, women, hanged by their hair over that mire that bubbled up: and these were they who adorned themselves for adultery; and the men who mingled with them in the defilement of adultery, were hanging by the feet and their heads in that mire. And I said: I did not believe that I should come into this place.

24. And I saw the murderers and those who conspired with them, cast into a certain strait place, full of evil snakes, and smitten by those beasts, and thus turning to and fro in that punishment; and worms, as it were clouds of darkness, afflicted them. And the souls of the murdered stood and looked upon the punishment of those murderers and said: O God, thy judgment is just.

25. And near that place I saw another strait place into which the gore and the filth of those who were being punished ran down and became there as it were a lake: and there sat women having the gore up to their necks, and over against them sat many children who were born to them out of due time, crying; and there came forth from them sparks of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were the accursed who conceived and caused abortion.

26. And other men and women were burning up to the middle and were cast into a dark place and were beaten by evil spirits, and their inwards were eaten by restless worms: and these were they who persecuted the righteous and delivered them up.

27. And near those there were again women and men gnawing their own lips, and being punished and receiving a red-hot iron in their eyes: and these were they who blasphemed and slandered the way of righteousness.

28. And over against these again other men and women gnawing their tongues and having flaming fire in their mouths: and these were the false witnesses.

29. And in a certain other place there were pebbles sharper than swords or any spit, red-hot, and women and men in tattered and filthy raiment rolled about on them in punishment: and these were the rich who trusted in their riches and had no pity for orphans and widows, and despised the commandment of God.

30. And in another great lake, full of pitch and blood and mire bubbling up, there stood men and women up to their knees: and these were the usurers and those who take interest on interest.

31. And other men and women were being hurled down from a great cliff and reached the bottom, and again were driven by those who were set over them to climb up upon the cliff, and thence were hurled down again, and had no rest from this punishment: and these were they who defiled their bodies acting as women; and the women who were with them were those who lay with one another as a man with a woman.

32. And alongside of that cliff there was a place full of much fire, and there stood men who with their own hands had made for themselves carven images instead of God. And alongside of these were other men and women, having rods and striking each other and never ceasing from such punishment.

33. And others again near them, women and men, burning and turning themselves and roasting: and these were they that leaving the way of God

FRAGMENTS OF THE APOCALYPSE OF PETER.

1. CLEMENS ALEXANDRINUS, Eclog. 48. For instance, Peter in the Apocalypse says that the children who are born out of due time shall be of the better part: and that these are delivered over to a care-taking angel that they may attain a share of knowledge and gain the better abode [after suffering what they would have suffered if they had been in the body: but the others shall merely obtain salvation as injured beings to whom mercy is shown, and remain without punishment, receiving this as a reward].*

2. CLEM. ALEX. Eclog. 49. But the milk of the women running down from their breasts and congealing shall engender small flesh eating beasts: and these run up upon them and devour them.

3. MACARIUS MAGNES, Apocritica iv., 6 cf. 16. The earth, it (sc. the Apoc. of Peter) says, "shall present all men before God at the day of judgment, being itself also to be judged, with the heaven also which encompasses it."

4. CLEM. ALEX. Eclog. 41. The scripture says that infants that have been exposed are delivered to a care-taking angel, by whom they are educated and so grow up, and they will be, it says, as the faithful of a hundred years old are here.

5. METHODIUS, Conviv. ii., 6. Whence also we have received in divinely-inspired scriptures that untimely births are delivered to care-taking angels, even if they are the offspring of adultery.
10/22/11 10:41 AM
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reverend john
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JesusTapped - Verse wars.

The battle for the better believer. Phone Post

sometimes if a subject is important enough I feel compelled to play. It is sad though isn't it? The church used to be known as "the way" because of the way they lived so differently, caring for others and each other. Now they are known for supporting conservative policies that kill people, imprison people and subjugate people and arguing over minutia of esoteric theology.

Now I am convincing myself that maybe this isn't worth it after all, workman has no thought of conversation, he just wants to prove me wrong.

thanks

rev
10/22/11 10:43 PM
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Workman
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John, what does it mean to have "no thought of conversation"?

As well; why do you assume that I think I can prove you wrong?

Wouldn't you agree that God's Word is sufficient enough to prove man to be a liar, while God alone is Truth?
10/23/11 9:58 PM
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reverend john
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I will continue to follow Christ, I will continue to do so in deed, word and thought. I will not however argue with you, nor justify myself to you. I pray your life follows the path of the cross.

rev
10/24/11 12:37 AM
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Workman
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Edited: 10/24/11 8:04 AM
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I understand John...

You have no problems writing theological blogs/threads...you just don't like being tested (1 John 4:1-2).

And by the way...no one spoke more about an everlasting /eternal Hell than the same Jesus you claim to follow.

Lastly, it is the same Jesus who will return to take "vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

And the same Jesus who will punish unbelievers "with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

Just thought that the visitors to this thread should be fully aware of what the word of God says, as opposed to some man's earthly wisdom from below.
10/24/11 11:15 AM
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reverend john
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No, I don't like being tested by smug religious people that are not interested in discussion, or discovery, but only beating people over the head with their own interpretation of scripture. The scribes were such people, and they said the same things about Jesus, not that I am Jesus.

As for any visitors to this thread you should be fully aware of who the word of God is, as opposed to some mans earthly love of a book.

rev
10/24/11 11:27 AM
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reverend john
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I read the bible as a whole, not as a bunch of bits and pieces to use for making doctrines and arguments. I view it as a complete story of Gods creation, and liberation of that creation. I believe this narrative is fulfilled in the person of Jesus, the Christ, and that Jesus not the bible is the center of my faith. But... Jesus is also the center of the narrative of the bible, he is the center and fulfillment of this story. The scriptures are important as they reveal Christ. The scriptures are only understood through the person of Christ. In addition, in order to understand properly the scriptures, we must understand the context in which the scripture was written. Christ did not come in the midst of a dominant culture, but came in the midst of occupation.

rev
10/24/11 1:58 PM
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Lahi
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Edited: 10/24/11 4:40 PM
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"And by the way...no one spoke more about an everlasting /eternal Hell than the same Jesus you claim to follow."

Could you give some examples? In most cases I don't think its clear at all that Jesus means "eternal hell." If anything, it seems he's usually not talking about hell at all in the way we've been taught to think of it.

Workman, does the idea of a loving Father torturing people in probably the worst imaginable way FOREVER bother you at all? Because it makes no sense to me.

I realize that love isn't always gentle, and that sometimes we need a good hard shot to the face from God to jar us awake (just my opinion). I can see a loving father, or a loving teacher, being hard sometimes in ways that might be very uncomfortable to us. I'm glad my teachers have kicked my ass sometimes, even though sometimes I hated them when it was going on. But I can't see a good Father or Teacher burning someone alive for a second, let alone eternity, for any reason at all...
10/24/11 2:08 PM
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Lahi
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Edited: 10/24/11 2:09 PM
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NT Wright on Hell, just some food for thought:

"The word hell has had a checkered career in the history of the church. And it wasnt hugely important in the early days. It was important, but not nearly as important as it became in the middle ages. And the in the middle ages, you get this polarization of heaven over here and hell over there, and you have to go to one place or the other eventually. So you have the Sistine Chapel, with that great thing behind the altar. This enormous great judgment seat, with the souls going off into these different directions.

Very interestingly, I was sitting in the Sistine chapel just a few weeks ago. I was sitting for a service, and I was sitting next to a Greek Orthodox...who said to me, looking at the pictures of Jesus on one wall. He said, these I can understand. The pictures of Moses on the other wall, he said, those I can understand. Then he pointed at the end wall of judgment, and said, that I cannot understand. Thats how you in the west have talked about judgment and heaven and hell. He said, we have never done it that way before, because the bible doesnt do it that way.

I thought, whoops. I think he's right actually. And whether you're Catholic or Protestant, that scenario which is etched into the consciousness of Western Christianity really has to be shaken about a bit. Because if heaven and earth are to join together...its not a matter of leaving earth and going to heaven. Its heaven and earth joined together. And hell is what happens when human beings say, the God in whose image they were made, we dont want to worship you. We dont want our human life to be shaped by you. We dont want, who we are as humans to be transformed by the love of Jesus dying and rising for us. We dont want any of that. We want to stay as we are and do our own thing. And if you do that, what youre saying is, you want to stop being image bearing human being within this good world that God has made. And you are colluding with your own progressive dehumanization.

And that is such a shocking and horrible thing, that its not surprising that the biblical writers and others have used very vivid and terrifying language about it. But, people have picked that up and said, this is a literal description of reality. Somewhere down there, there is a lake of fire, and its got worms in it and its got serpents and demons and there coming to get you.

But I think actually, the reality is more sober and sad than that, which is this progressive shrinking of human life. And that happens during this life, but it seems to be that if someone resolutely says to God, Im not going to worship you...its not just Ill not come to church. Its a matter of deep down somewhere, there is a rejection of the good creator God, then that it the choice humans make.

In other words, I think the human choices in this life really matter. Were not just playing a game of chess, where tomorrow morning God will put the pieces back on the board and say, Ok that was just a game. Now were doing something different. The choices we make here really do matter. There's part of me that would love to be a universalist, and say, it'll be alright. Everyone will get there in the end. I actually think...the choices you make in the present are more important than that."
10/24/11 2:10 PM
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Lahi
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Edited: 10/24/11 2:55 PM
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I don't agree with everything he says on Universalism, but he makes some very good points IMO.
10/24/11 5:55 PM
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zealot66
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 By 99 percent of Christian consensus, Im on a one way ticket. Darn the luck.
10/24/11 7:04 PM
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reverend john
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Not luck it's Gods sovereign will for you to burn he creates you for it

Or it all your choice and you are choosing to deny Christ, even though you haven't just what some people say about Him

Rev Phone Post
10/24/11 7:10 PM
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Malvert the Janitor
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Live well.

Then, hell or not, you needn't be concerned with punishment - eternally or otherwise. Phone Post
10/24/11 9:15 PM
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gord96
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Edited: 10/25/11 5:42 PM
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Lahi - Workman, does the idea of a loving Father torturing people in probably the worst imaginable way FOREVER bother you at all? Because it makes no sense to me.


Truth is, it doesn't matter if it makes sense to us. We are but the molded and God the molder.

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
(Romans 9:20 ESV)

I'm not arguing about eternal punishment or what hell actually is, but God will do as He wills. If God but chose to save one person in history, he would still be good, as our salvation is completely undeserved.

edited for clarity.
10/24/11 9:29 PM
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LoveToChoke
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Gord, so you would still contend that God was good if he burned everyone who ever lived for eternity?

For consistency's sake, I'm guessing you are forgiving of Hitler because his actions were on a much smaller scale right? Phone Post
10/24/11 9:49 PM
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gord96
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Edited: 10/24/11 10:32 PM
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if God did send everyone to hell then i would probably not feel any love towards God as I would be hardened towards God and exposed to God's full wrath. would he be justified? yeah. but i wouldn't agree and would probably curse God to the end.

but since God did decided to save his elect, then I do think him good.

i don't really get the Hitler comment. why would Hitler deserve any forgiveness from me?
10/24/11 10:06 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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""" i don't really get the Hitler comment. why would Hitler deserve any forgiveness from me?"""

In Gods eyes we are all Hitler.

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