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HolyGround >> who is going to hell?


10/24/11 10:41 PM
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Malvert the Janitor
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Demitrius Barbito - """ i don't really get the Hitler comment. why would Hitler deserve any forgiveness from me?"""

In Gods eyes we are all Hitler.
Then God is REALLY reading into things.

Kid steals a pack of gum, man tortures and murders millions of Jews...six of one, half dozen of the other, I guess. Phone Post
10/25/11 12:01 AM
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Workman
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reverend john - No, I don't like being tested by smug religious people that are not interested in discussion, or discovery, but only beating people over the head with their own interpretation of scripture. The scribes were such people, and they said the same things about Jesus, not that I am Jesus.

As for any visitors to this thread you should be fully aware of who the word of God is, as opposed to some mans earthly love of a book.

rev


Hey John, I'm confused...what is so smug about testing what you believe, teach, and promote on these various threads of yours?

And what do you mean by "religious people"?

My questions to you seem fully in line with open discussion unless you can kindly point out the flaw(s).

Lastly, show us a chapter and verse where the scribes "said the same things about Jesus".

I've love to see evidence which shows that the scribes tested Jesus as to the validity of an eternal / everlasting hell.
10/25/11 12:06 AM
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Workman
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reverend john - I read the bible as a whole, not as a bunch of bits and pieces to use for making doctrines and arguments. I view it as a complete story of Gods creation, and liberation of that creation. I believe this narrative is fulfilled in the person of Jesus, the Christ, and that Jesus not the bible is the center of my faith. But... Jesus is also the center of the narrative of the bible, he is the center and fulfillment of this story. The scriptures are important as they reveal Christ. The scriptures are only understood through the person of Christ. In addition, in order to understand properly the scriptures, we must understand the context in which the scripture was written. Christ did not come in the midst of a dominant culture, but came in the midst of occupation.

rev


Are you making the claim that you are the 1st and only person to have ever "read the bible as a whole"?

And you mean to tell me that this theologically based topic on hell has nothing to do with your doctrinal belief?!?!

With all due respect, your kinda behaving like a cult leader when you make such illogical and fallacious statements.
10/25/11 12:37 AM
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Workman
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Lahi - "And by the way...no one spoke more about an everlasting /eternal Hell than the same Jesus you claim to follow."

Could you give some examples? In most cases I don't think its clear at all that Jesus means "eternal hell." If anything, it seems he's usually not talking about hell at all in the way we've been taught to think of it.

Workman, does the idea of a loving Father torturing people in probably the worst imaginable way FOREVER bother you at all? Because it makes no sense to me.

I realize that love isn't always gentle, and that sometimes we need a good hard shot to the face from God to jar us awake (just my opinion). I can see a loving father, or a loving teacher, being hard sometimes in ways that might be very uncomfortable to us. I'm glad my teachers have kicked my ass sometimes, even though sometimes I hated them when it was going on. But I can't see a good Father or Teacher burning someone alive for a second, let alone eternity, for any reason at all...


Lahi, in general, folks do not obviously appreciate the idea of an eternal hell, and separation from God. Especially those who are unbelievers, since they understand that according to the Bible, they would be the one's who end up in such a place.

But one's denial of it doesn't make it any less real.

Jesus mentioned Hell during the sermon on the mount (Matthew 5:22 & 30).

Hell is the same place of doom and gloom that Jesus described a couple of chapters over, when He said, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:" (Matthew 7:13)

A few chapters over Jesus warns gives a stark warning in Matthew 10:28:

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Jesus even gave it to the Pharisees Matthew 23:33, where He told them:

"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"

And in Matthew 25:41, Jesus refers to Hell as an "everlasting fire". Now whatever you want to call Hell, it is declared to be "everlasting", and describing it with the metaphor / term "fire" does not exactly invoke Disney world.

I trust that these examples suffice...!

Lastly, if you can accept God's Love, Mercy, and Grace to receive the gift of Eternal life, then it is perfectly logical to believe that this same love God wouldn't allow unbelieving and unrepentant sinners to dwell in the same place and at the same time in eternity with the believing and repentant sinners.

Furthermore, it would perfectly rational to believe that just as an earthly father loves his child, there is an understanding that any responsible and loving father will discipline their child when necessary since they are expected as adults to know what is best and fair given the situation.

How much more is God Just in His ways?!

There are only 2 roads, and you can live "eternally" in both; it just so happens that one is in peace and joy in union with God.

While the other is complete separation from all that is Good, and that is God.





10/25/11 2:01 AM
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inlikeflynn
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Workman Furthermore, it would perfectly rational to believe that just as an earthly father loves his child, there is an understanding that any responsible and loving father will discipline their child when necessary since they are expected as adults to know what is best and fair given the situation.

How much more is God Just in His ways?!



Discipline implies a corrective/redemptive purpose. The Hell most evangelicals propose is one of strictly punishment. And since I do expect God to be more just in His ways, eternal punishment for a temporal crime doesn't really jibe.
10/25/11 2:19 AM
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inlikeflynn
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gord96 - if God did send everyone to hell then i would probably not feel any love towards God as I would be hardened towards God and exposed to God's full wrath. would he be justified? yeah. but i wouldn't agree and would probably curse God to the end.

but since God did decided to save his elect, then I do think him good.

i don't really get the Hitler comment. why would Hitler deserve any forgiveness from me?


Gord, I honestly don't get this reasoning. God made us, with full knowledge that we would fall, then he arbitrarily decides to save a small portion (I assume you're taking a Calvanist position here), and condemns the rest to eternal torture and this is good?
10/25/11 3:41 AM
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LoveToChoke
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My point is that if God does decide to let billions burn in Hell for eternity, then he is far worse than Hitler - and is evil on a greater scale. Phone Post
10/25/11 8:17 AM
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Workman
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inlikeflynn - 
Workman Furthermore, it would perfectly rational to believe that just as an earthly father loves his child, there is an understanding that any responsible and loving father will discipline their child when necessary since they are expected as adults to know what is best and fair given the situation.

How much more is God Just in His ways?!



Discipline implies a corrective/redemptive purpose. The Hell most evangelicals propose is one of strictly punishment. And since I do expect God to be more just in His ways, eternal punishment for a temporal crime doesn't really jibe.


Discipline has more than one purpose. Yes, it is true that correction is certainly one of them.

However, wouldn't you agree that punishment is another purpose?

It even conforms to the reality some places that currently enforce capital punishment to those who take away the life of another.

Hypothetically, if you had a daughter who was murdered and raped, wouldn't you want Justice, or should the judge sweep the crime under the carpet and allow the perpetrator to go free?

If we don't expect that here on earth, what makes it any more logical to expect a Just God to do it for those who have eternally sinned against Him?

His creation...His rules....just like an earthly father who sets the agenda, proper example, expectations, leadership, and disciplinary actions in his own household.
10/25/11 8:22 AM
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Workman
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explodin - 
LoveToChoke - My point is that if God does decide to let billions burn in Hell for eternity, then he is far worse than Hitler - and is evil on a greater scale. <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>
You bring up an excellent argument! I completely understand why any belief in God would sound silly to a nonbeliever. I do agree with Workman's point that Jesus may not have been implying an "eternal" hell. I realize there is not a suitable answer, because you are most likely just trying to point out how silly our belief is. If you don't believe Jesus was the son of God, or that there is even a God for that matter, then any answer to your question would seem stupid. But you do bring up a very good point! <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>


Hey Explodin, I must not have done a very good job of getting my point across, so I will state it here.

I actually do believe that Hell is a place that is reserved for the rebellious angels and unrepentant sinners, and I do believe that Jesus declares it to be an eternally existing place.
10/25/11 9:26 AM
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gord96
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inlikeflynn - 
gord96 - if God did send everyone to hell then i would probably not feel any love towards God as I would be hardened towards God and exposed to God's full wrath. would he be justified? yeah. but i wouldn't agree and would probably curse God to the end.

but since God did decided to save his elect, then I do think him good.

i don't really get the Hitler comment. why would Hitler deserve any forgiveness from me?


Gord, I honestly don't get this reasoning. God made us, with full knowledge that we would fall, then he arbitrarily decides to save a small portion (I assume you're taking a Calvanist position here), and condemns the rest to eternal torture and this is good?


Hello Inlikeflynn!

I'm not sure what your beliefs are, but first I would say, what part do you not get? God's full knowledge? Saving a few and condemning the rest?

I didn't say a small portion would be saved and i don't think that's a Calvinist position either. Only God would know the full number of his elect. I would also say that i don't know what hell will be like. Maybe there will be some redemptive purposes. who knows.

my point for even posting in this thread was to point out that how we feel and what 'jives' with us doesn't really matter. Romans 9 does a nice job explaining that.

but that the Almighty, a being who created the universe, decided to redeem his fallen people, instead of letting them fall into destruction, by allowing his Son to be killed by the same people, to me is good. (run on sentence alert)

like i said i don't really know your believes old chap so not sure what kind of answer you were looking for :)
10/25/11 9:31 AM
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gord96
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explodin - If you don't believe Jesus was the son of God, or that there is even a God for that matter, then any answer to your question would seem stupid. Phone Post


well put. an atheist's heart is hardened. there is really nothing that can be said to make him understand. i actually understand how Love to Choke would think we are all loons as I was once where he was. (sorry if you're not an atheist LTC. I seem to remember you saying you were once.)
10/25/11 10:09 AM
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LoveToChoke
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I am an Atheist.
To me, the Rev's position is more logically sound. How can you claim a being is love or good, if that being is worse than Hitler? Why would one worship such a being as the Calvinist god?

Even the destruction of souls makes more sense than eternal punishment for everyone but a select few. Otherwise the idea of a loving God is simply a falsehood. Phone Post
10/25/11 10:22 AM
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gord96
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understandable old bean.

Rev's view would be the most easy to digest for an unbeliever.
10/25/11 10:46 AM
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reverend john
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Workman I am speaking of narrative theology I never once suggested I was the only who did so. But systematic theology turns the bible into a weapon. Which is how the pharisees used the scriptures the woman caught in adultery is one of many examples

I have had many long and drawn out conversations with people about my beliefs and why I hold them. I am learning however that if you are intent on protecting your point of view and not listening nor answering the others questions, it becomes biblical warfare. I am no longer interested in doing that

I apologize for calling you smug and I pray that Gods love is poured out upon you today my brother in Christ

Rev Phone Post
10/25/11 11:03 AM
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reverend john
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Gord, its easiest to digest for everyone not just unbelievers. Now you have reasons to no accept the easiest and I understand that. But the problems I have, is you have a God that tells us to forgive endlessly, a God that is most clearly reflected in Christ who forgave even as He was being nailed to the cross, to unrepentant people, we have all of creation being made good, all humanity being made in God's image, and everything having be sustained by and filled with God's glory... how does the God of redemption, mercy, and love not show mercy, and redemption of all of creation, and glory in the victory of love?

But is God also a God of justice? Of course, which actually was the original question of this thread. As we read through the gospels who does Jesus warn of the coming hell? those that by their greed, and power mongering, oppress others. The question becomes in my mind how does God judge? How is God's wrath actually accomplished?

rev
10/25/11 12:18 PM
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inlikeflynn
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Discipline has more than one purpose. Yes, it is true that correction is certainly one of them.

However, wouldn't you agree that punishment is another purpose?

It even conforms to the reality some places that currently enforce capital punishment to those who take away the life of another.

Hypothetically, if you had a daughter who was murdered and raped, wouldn't you want Justice, or should the judge sweep the crime under the carpet and allow the perpetrator to go free?

If we don't expect that here on earth, what makes it any more logical to expect a Just God to do it for those who have eternally sinned against Him?


Of course I would want justice. But what would that look like? Would torturing that person day and night for the rest of his life be justice? Is there something between that and letting him go free? Here on earth, we recognize that a sense of proportionality is inherent in the concept of justice. That's why we don't execute people for shoplifting. Why would we expect less from God?


His creation...His rules....just like an earthly father who sets the agenda, proper example, expectations, leadership, and disciplinary actions in his own household.


Absolutely. But wouldn't you agree that what God decides to do with that creation and the rules He makes have a bearing on whether or not He can be considered good/loving?
That's really what the issue is here.
10/25/11 12:43 PM
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inlikeflynn
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gord96 - 
inlikeflynn - 
gord96 - if God did send everyone to hell then i would probably not feel any love towards God as I would be hardened towards God and exposed to God's full wrath. would he be justified? yeah. but i wouldn't agree and would probably curse God to the end.

but since God did decided to save his elect, then I do think him good.

i don't really get the Hitler comment. why would Hitler deserve any forgiveness from me?


Gord, I honestly don't get this reasoning. God made us, with full knowledge that we would fall, then he arbitrarily decides to save a small portion (I assume you're taking a Calvanist position here), and condemns the rest to eternal torture and this is good?


Hello Inlikeflynn!

I'm not sure what your beliefs are, but first I would say, what part do you not get? God's full knowledge? Saving a few and condemning the rest?

I didn't say a small portion would be saved and i don't think that's a Calvinist position either. Only God would know the full number of his elect. I would also say that i don't know what hell will be like. Maybe there will be some redemptive purposes. who knows.

my point for even posting in this thread was to point out that how we feel and what 'jives' with us doesn't really matter. Romans 9 does a nice job explaining that.

but that the Almighty, a being who created the universe, decided to redeem his fallen people, instead of letting them fall into destruction, by allowing his Son to be killed by the same people, to me is good. (run on sentence alert)

like i said i don't really know your believes old chap so not sure what kind of answer you were looking for :)


My beliefs? I am a Christian. I come from an evangelical background but have become increasingly uncomfortable with a number of their theological concepts/practices, including this one.

What I don't get is Calvanist theology. I thought you were taking a hard line Calvanist position, but it appears you weren't so I don't know if we disagree all that much.

One thing I would mention is the quote from Job you mentioned earlier about who are we to question God. I find Job to be an attempt to answer the problem of suffering here on Earth, and not necessarily applicable here. What I mean is if we look at God's overall plan of the redemption of the whole creation, we can leave open the possibility that the suffering here on earth, even if we don't always understand it, somehow serves a purpose in that plan, and that this life is just a blip on the screen of our existance, and something better awaits us (how's that for a run on sentence). But, if Hell is a place of everlasting punishment, with no chance of repentance/redemption ever, how does that fit into the plan of a loving creator redeeming His creation?

Furthermore, we have no problem using our human judgement to determine that God is loving. We say things like "God sacrificed his only son to save us. Can you imagine sacrificing one of your children to save someone else? He must really love us." But, when someone asks "What kind of loving father would condemn their child to everlasting punishment, with no hope of redemption?", we say "Whoa there. God is above us. You can't judge him by human standards." It's silly.
10/25/11 12:57 PM
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gord96
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reverend john - Gord, its easiest to digest for everyone not just unbelievers. Now you have reasons to no accept the easiest and I understand that. But the problems I have, is you have a God that tells us to forgive endlessly, a God that is most clearly reflected in Christ who forgave even as He was being nailed to the cross, to unrepentant people, we have all of creation being made good, all humanity being made in God's image, and everything having be sustained by and filled with God's glory... how does the God of redemption, mercy, and love not show mercy, and redemption of all of creation, and glory in the victory of love?

But is God also a God of justice? Of course, which actually was the original question of this thread. As we read through the gospels who does Jesus warn of the coming hell? those that by their greed, and power mongering, oppress others. The question becomes in my mind how does God judge? How is God's wrath actually accomplished?

rev


Hey John

Everything you say about God is correct. He is a God of redemption, mercy, and love. He is also a God of wrath. And it glorifies him to show both mercy and wrath.

i like this little blurb from blurb for the ESV commentary on Romans 9:22-23.

"God created a world in which both his wrath and his mercy would be displayed. Indeed, his mercy shines against the backdrop of his just wrath, showing thereby that the salvation of any person is due to the marvelous grace and love of God. If this is difficult to understand, it is because people mistakenly think God owes them salvation!"

Who did Jesus warn? The rich, the unrepentant, one of the thief's who hung next to him on the cross, the authorities, the elite, EVERYONE pretty much. Scripture is filled with warnings to Christians. Warnings that especially ring true to Christians in our western society of excess.
10/25/11 2:15 PM
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Lahi
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gord96 - 
Lahi - Workman, does the idea of a loving Father torturing people in probably the worst imaginable way FOREVER bother you at all? Because it makes no sense to me.


Truth is, it doesn't matter if it makes sense to us. We are but the molded and God the molder.

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
(Romans 9:20 ESV)

I'm not arguing about eternal punishment or what hell actually is, but we are in no position to ever question God. God will do as He wills. If God but chose to save one person in history, he would still be good, as our salvation is completely undeserved.



So does that text mean we never wrestle with the character of God? Because the Christian and Hebrew traditions are filled with prophets and writers of Scripture to whom that struggle was central to their faith.

Does it mean we don't admit when things don't make sense? Jesus Himself did that. Abraham did that several times.

Does it mean we blindly accept what someone tells us about God? Does it mean we take at face value what Scripture seems to tell us about God without questioning it and searching for deeper meanings?

I don't think Paul meant any of those things.

The problem as I see it is this: first, that Workmans idea of Hell is something that seems to work if you take the scriptures at face value, and don't place the words Jesus used in their theological and cultural context.

Second, if turning from God really means He will literally burn us alive forever, it means that God is desecrating those he made in his image. I don't see any difference (this is crude but I think a fair comparison) between burning people alive forever, and having them raped, or whatever other terrible think you can imagine - accept that probably being burned alive would be worse.

This would make God a torturer, and a sadist as far as I can see. It doesn't make sense to me to say "He's God, and I'm not. Whatever He tells me to do, I'll do, whether its killing little kids or whatever." Abraham didn't seem to see things this way.

10/25/11 2:18 PM
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Lahi
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If something someone teaches in the name of God doesn't square with other aspects of God's character, I think we have to admit that. If it seems to come from a spiritually trustworthy source (and I don't think this idea of Hell does, it is a tradition of man as far as I can see), then we have to be honest that God's character doesn't make sense and contradicts itself in apparently horrible ways. But I don't see that as being the case here, or anywhere when we look at scripture through the light of Jesus.

10/25/11 2:54 PM
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gord96
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not sure where you get we don't question God's character Lahi. The scriptures is full of stuff like that and it helps show and reveal God's character to us. But in the end, God is who he is.

the rest of your post is kinda scattered. talking about God torturing and raping and killing little kids or something. not sure what to make of all that. sorry :(

i don't know what hell is. but God's wrath will be upon the world one day. and we are warned about this many times in scripture and by Christ himself. if you had to ask for my personal interpretation of hell then I would go back to my old Orthodox days and say that hell will be the experience of God's unending light on an unbeliever. While it will comfort the believer.... "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."" Rev 21:4, while to a unbeliever it will burn like fire. the full knowledge of their sins will be revealed and being eternally embraced by a God they hate will be their fate. God's love will also be his wrath for many.
10/25/11 2:58 PM
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Lahi
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I'll come back on and try to make it a bit more clear later. Didn't you say it doesn't matter what we think of what God does? I was trying to explain why it did matter, and why that text in Romans doesn't fit every situation.
10/25/11 3:01 PM
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Lahi
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My point is that if we accept a God who says its good to burn people alive forever, do we question if he tells us to do other things equally terrible - like rape and torture - that people do in God's name all the time? Or is it OK to question those things, but just not Hell. In the Abraham story it apparantly mattered what Abraham thought of God's character as compared to what God was asking him to do.

Does that really not make any sense?
10/25/11 3:57 PM
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gord96
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Lahi - My point is that if we accept a God who says its good to burn people alive forever, do we question if he tells us to do other things equally terrible - like rape and torture - that people do in God's name all the time? Or is it OK to question those things, but just not Hell. In the Abraham story it apparantly mattered what Abraham thought of God's character as compared to what God was asking him to do.

Does that really not make any sense?


rape and torture? i must have missed the part in the Gospels where Jesus says that that is ok to do.

i don't see why you think anyone who thinks there is a hell is 'blindly' following scripture and not questioning things. i questioned hell for years and studied scripture and other sources exhaustively. but as i said, all hell is to me is facing the full measure of God's wrath.
10/25/11 4:31 PM
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Lahi
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Maybe I am in too much of an argumentative mood and not coming across well because of that. Or maybe I am completely misunderstanding what you are saying.

I'll try to get on later and make a little more sense. I think somehow we are on two completely different pages.

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