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HolyGround >> who is going to hell?


10/25/11 4:43 PM
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gord96
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Edited: 10/25/11 4:45 PM
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no worries bro. glad to chat with you.

when i do read back on what i said with the verse from Romans I admit i came across wrong. I did say "we shouldn't ever question God." i didn't mean that we should blindly follow whatever someone says or not question or study scripture. that was my bad. God encourages us to delve into his word help solidify our faith through questions. i meant more..who are WE to question what GOD says when we come across one of his more difficult truths just because it is not easy for us to swallow. and that truth could take years of questioning and prayer and meditation to come to.

sorry about that.
10/25/11 4:46 PM
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reverend john
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gord96 - 
reverend john - Gord, its easiest to digest for everyone not just unbelievers. Now you have reasons to no accept the easiest and I understand that. But the problems I have, is you have a God that tells us to forgive endlessly, a God that is most clearly reflected in Christ who forgave even as He was being nailed to the cross, to unrepentant people, we have all of creation being made good, all humanity being made in God's image, and everything having be sustained by and filled with God's glory... how does the God of redemption, mercy, and love not show mercy, and redemption of all of creation, and glory in the victory of love?

But is God also a God of justice? Of course, which actually was the original question of this thread. As we read through the gospels who does Jesus warn of the coming hell? those that by their greed, and power mongering, oppress others. The question becomes in my mind how does God judge? How is God's wrath actually accomplished?

rev


Hey John

Everything you say about God is correct. He is a God of redemption, mercy, and love. He is also a God of wrath. And it glorifies him to show both mercy and wrath.

i like this little blurb from blurb for the ESV commentary on Romans 9:22-23.

"God created a world in which both his wrath and his mercy would be displayed. Indeed, his mercy shines against the backdrop of his just wrath, showing thereby that the salvation of any person is due to the marvelous grace and love of God. If this is difficult to understand, it is because people mistakenly think God owes them salvation!"

Who did Jesus warn? The rich, the unrepentant, one of the thief's who hung next to him on the cross, the authorities, the elite, EVERYONE pretty much. Scripture is filled with warnings to Christians. Warnings that especially ring true to Christians in our western society of excess.


Gord, Jesus didn't address the other thief, I would suspect he got the same forgiveness prayer the others did.

I think that Jesus comes and perfect our understanding of God. As we look through scripture God's wrath is often the result of our sin. Israel is told God's wrath will be poured out upon them, but how does that happen? Persia, or Babylon come. But if those nations were the weapon of God's wrath... how come God judges them for what they did?

They did God's will in orchestrating His wrath, but then they are judged for not being merciful towards His people?

When the Jewish people were expecting the Messiah, they were expecting a king, what they didn't expect was a king that was poor, and crucified, and non violent. It wasn't that they didn't have evidence for that, but it was that their frame of reference was off. Now my frame of reference may be off as well, but I am focusing on the person of Jesus. In the end I call people to follow Jesus, I believe in Him crucified, and risen, I believe in the indwelling of God's Spirit, and the deity of Jesus. So is the proper doctrine of hell essential to salvation? I have never met a person who came to Christ because they were scared of hell, but many who have come to Christ because they see in Christ a sacrificial love that will go across any divide to save us.

If the Calvinists are right I am either saved or not and there is nothing I can do about it, nor anything I say will do anything about anyone else, so who cares?

rev
10/25/11 5:06 PM
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gord96
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reverend john - Gord, Jesus didn't address the other thief, I would suspect he got the same forgiveness prayer the others did.

I think that Jesus comes and perfect our understanding of God. As we look through scripture God's wrath is often the result of our sin. Israel is told God's wrath will be poured out upon them, but how does that happen? Persia, or Babylon come. But if those nations were the weapon of God's wrath... how come God judges them for what they did?

They did God's will in orchestrating His wrath, but then they are judged for not being merciful towards His people?

When the Jewish people were expecting the Messiah, they were expecting a king, what they didn't expect was a king that was poor, and crucified, and non violent. It wasn't that they didn't have evidence for that, but it was that their frame of reference was off. Now my frame of reference may be off as well, but I am focusing on the person of Jesus. In the end I call people to follow Jesus, I believe in Him crucified, and risen, I believe in the indwelling of God's Spirit, and the deity of Jesus. So is the proper doctrine of hell essential to salvation? I have never met a person who came to Christ because they were scared of hell, but many who have come to Christ because they see in Christ a sacrificial love that will go across any divide to save us.

If the Calvinists are right I am either saved or not and there is nothing I can do about it, nor anything I say will do anything about anyone else, so who cares?

rev


Hi John,

true about the thief. i mentioned him as a point that the two thieves symbolize God's sheep and the goats. the elect and the reprobate. one thief saw Jesus for who he was and was assured of paradise while the other mocked the Lord.

it wasn't me that said the proper doctrine of hell is essential to salvation. i agree with you when doctrine and theology do not play much into a person's salvation. i think they come after to help sharpen a person's faith. i always like AW Tozer's quote when it came to any thing like this;

"God will not hold us responsible to understand the mysteries of election, predestination and the divine sovereignty. The best and safest way to deal with these truths is to raise our eyes to God and in deepest reverence say "Oh Lord thou knowest!"

i see hell as the same way. but i don't run from something i see as a gospel truth.

i agree with pretty much the rest of your post. except the part about Calvinism. and i won't get into it on this thread but that is the last way a Calvinist would think. that sounds more like Antinomianism to me, which any Calvinist i know would not agree with. The Lord calls us to action. so to say 'who cares' would be to disobey the Lord which in turn is not something a Christian would want to do.
10/25/11 5:29 PM
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zealot66
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reverend john -  Not luck it's Gods sovereign will for you to burn he creates you for it

Or it all your choice and you are choosing to deny Christ, even though you haven't just what some people say about Him

Rev Phone Post
I've stated before, I have no other religion and Christ is my only interest. I just cannot fall in with the crowd. 
 
10/25/11 5:43 PM
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reverend john
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Gord but the way it actually works out is since I don't believe such and such it is proof that he isn't elect. And my preaching something wrongly cannot make someone else become unelected. So practically it doesn't matter. Phone Post
10/25/11 6:28 PM
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gord96
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Edited: 10/25/11 6:41 PM
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Unless it is God's will that your preaching or your ministry with the homeless will convert someone. Election and predestination are two hard concepts that some people put way to much thought into. We aren't puppets on God's strings. All predestination is, is the fact that God knows everything from the beginning to the end. That when there was just God, he already knew the outcome of everything.

that's my view on it anyways. it is one of those mysteries that we can't worry about too much. see the Tozer quote above.

to add to it, it is much as you say john in your blogs about "who's theology is better?" etc. election and predestination are biblical truths, but God didn't worry too much about explaining them in exact detail as complete understanding of them is probably impossible for fallen men and really just not vital to salvation. it's fun to get into debates about it after the fact, but it is what it is.
10/26/11 9:21 AM
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reverend john
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but Calvinism goes further saying that you cannot resist God's call, that Christ only died for the elect and that you are totally depraved and have no ability to choose God.

rev
10/26/11 9:33 AM
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gord96
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Edited: 10/26/11 9:38 AM
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indeed it does. irresistible grace and total depravity are two of the points of Calvinism that i find hard to deny and fully agree with. if the Lord goes after you. he's coming back with you.

let's not derail the thread any further with silly theology ;) i am no Calvinist apologist.
10/26/11 4:15 PM
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reverend john
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agreed :) I am no apologist at all lately... I am just not sorry for anything :)

rev
10/26/11 5:03 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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""" but Calvinism goes further saying that you cannot resist God's call, that Christ only died for the elect and that you are totally depraved and have no ability to choose God."""

Calvinism doesn't just say that. Scripture does...

;)
10/27/11 10:52 AM
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reverend john
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choose ye this day whom ye will serve, (oh never mind I will choose for you) :)

rev
10/27/11 4:23 PM
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Juijitsuboxer
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Jesus (God) went after Judas Iscariot but did not come back with him.
10/27/11 4:38 PM
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Juijitsuboxer
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1 Genesis 6

5 The Lord observed the extent of human wickedness on the earth, and he saw that everything they thought or imagined was consistently and totally evil.

6 So the Lord was sorry he had ever made them and put them on the earth. It broke his heart.

7 And the Lord said, “I will wipe this human race I have created from the face of the earth. Yes, and I will destroy every living thing—all the people, the large animals, the small animals that scurry along the ground, and even the birds of the sky. I am sorry I ever made them.”

8 But Noah found favor with the Lord.






As you can see above, God made humans and set them on their own path. The decisions that humans made that drove the world to evil made God sorry he ever made them/us.

Did God predestine that he would feel sorry for creating humanity based on what actions we chose or did God respond emotionally with sadness based off the choices we all made based on our own desires / destiny?
10/27/11 4:47 PM
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gord96
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Edited: 10/27/11 7:27 PM
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Juijitsuboxer - Jesus (God) went after Judas Iscariot but did not come back with him.


I seem to remember someone saying it would be better if he was never born as his fate was for destruction.

I can't see how you think God went after Judas in some hope of salvation for him. You think God was surprised that Judas betrayed Jesus? Jesus knew what Judas was up to all along. :)

edited to add more Phone Post
10/27/11 5:04 PM
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reverend john
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but if it was God's will for Jesus to die then Judas did exactly what he was needed to do right? Why is he judged for what he could not have resisted doing? It gets all esoteric and weird if you keep going down these paths.

I say, choose to follow Jesus, in deed, and faith.

rev
10/27/11 7:10 PM
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gord96
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Juijitsuboxer - 1 Genesis 6

5 The Lord observed the extent of human wickedness on the earth, and he saw that everything they thought or imagined was consistently and totally evil.

6 So the Lord was sorry he had ever made them and put them on the earth. It broke his heart.

7 And the Lord said, "I will wipe this human race I have created from the face of the earth. Yes, and I will destroy every living thing--all the people, the large animals, the small animals that scurry along the ground, and even the birds of the sky. I am sorry I ever made them."

8 But Noah found favor with the Lord.






As you can see above, God made humans and set them on their own path. The decisions that humans made that drove the world to evil made God sorry he ever made them/us.

Did God predestine that he would feel sorry for creating humanity based on what actions we chose or did God respond emotionally with sadness based off the choices we all made based on our own desires / destiny?


the Bible was written by men that were inspired by the Lord and divinely led. The Bible is from man's point of view. It would be impossible to make it from God's point of view. It would be beyond the scope of words and human understanding. God is sovereign though and his will is done as he sees fit and preordained in the beginning. We get hints and gleamings and musings and solid proof of this all through scripture. But humans can't really think like that and scripture reflects it.

I will repeat Tozer's quote "God will not hold us responsible to understand the mysteries of election, predestination and the divine sovereignty. The best and safest way to deal with these truths is to raise our eyes to God and in deepest reverence say "Oh Lord thou knowest!"

I find it troubling some people see God as some sort of cowboy who creates the world then goes "Yeehaw! Let's see how this goes! I wonder what these humans are going to get up to?"

Most importantly though, as John says, follow Jesus, in deed and in faith!

Although I do like me some good theology and debates. Iron sharpens iron. :)
10/27/11 7:51 PM
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inlikeflynn
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gord96 - 
I find it troubling some people see God as some sort of cowboy who creates the world then goes "Yeehaw! Let's see how this goes! I wonder what these humans are going to get up to?"


I find that a lot less troubling than some people thinking that God pre-destined a large portion of humanity to everlasting torment. Not saying that you believe that, but clearly, there are those on this board that do.

I agree that we would do well to just follow Jesus, but these ideas are important as they have implications regarding God's character.
10/27/11 8:45 PM
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gord96
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i understand old bean. i struggled with these truths for a very long time. God bless.
10/27/11 9:21 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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 One statement cannot direct our theology.

In the bible it said Caesar taxed "the whole world". HE DID NOT. So is the bible flawed/ NOPE. It's contextual. We know what that meant. It meant THE ROMAN CONTOLLED WORLD - but that's not what scripture says...

The totality of meanings of ideas in scripture have to reconciled from Genesis to Revelation.

Still, I offer this as a basic premise that although we have freedom of choice/free agency - We are still limited to a very short range of choices and none include God. So he MUST choose those incapable of choosing him.

Rom 1:29-31 (We hate God in our natural state)

29They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

Psalm 51:5

Behold I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother concieve me.

John 10:28-30

28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

AND BEST OF ALL: John 6:43

44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.


 
10/28/11 9:33 AM
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Demitrius Barbito
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 """but if it was God's will for Jesus to die then Judas did exactly what he was needed to do right? Why is he judged for what he could not have resisted doing?"""

Actually the bible says that "Satan entered peter".

The bible also says that Pharoh hardened his own heart and that God also hardened Pharoh heart. 

10/28/11 9:37 AM
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Demitrius Barbito
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 I do feel that debates over theology should be good natured and short lived. Nobody wan'ts to cause divisions between brothers. It's just helpful for everyone to know where everyone else stands. Kind of an open book policy among friends.
11/8/11 7:38 AM
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CJJScout
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reverend john - but Calvinism goes further saying that you cannot resist God's call, that Christ only died for the elect and that you are totally depraved and have no ability to choose God.

rev

Driscoll would actually disagree with part of this. Be careful rev, you may be in agreement with him on some stuff!

Late to the game, but I do have this question: are any one of God's attributes more fully Him than any of the others?
11/8/11 2:50 PM
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reverend john
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Of course I do, I believe Jesus is God, I believe he rose from the grave, I believe he ascended into heaven, I believe he is coming again, I believe he is the Messiah, I believe in the Tri Unity of God, I believe many many things that Driscoll believes. I also believe he is a jackass, which I think he believes too, in fact I think he prides himself on it, so we have that in common.

Meaning we both are jackasses and enjoy being so. But TULIP actually teaches,

Total depravity
Unconditional election
Limited atonement
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the saints

this equals exactly what I said. You are unable to even respond to God, that God initiates and enables you to respond, and you cannot resist His call. He only calls some, and those He did not call he did not die for. And once you are one of the ones he called, you can never stop being one.

This is basic calvinism, if Driscoll departs from that I have no idea, don't care, and never actually said anything about him.

rev
11/8/11 2:54 PM
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reverend john
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Yes, God is love. Love that is defined by Christ's dying for even those that hated him.

That is God's prevailing character. Don't tell me about justice when you are willing to sweep justice under the rug for the saints. Well Jesus' blood covers those sins, he paid those penalties. God has had his blood lust fulfilled for our sins because we have accepted him.

So God is not just towards us, he is gracious to us because of Christ.

Exactly!

And I believe God's grace through Christ is even greater, extending throughout eternity, never stopping in its eternal call.

rev
11/8/11 4:52 PM
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Juijitsuboxer
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"I am sorry I ever made them." - God

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