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Boxing UnderGround >> Joe Louis' Style?


8/22/11 10:28 AM
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Ogami Itto
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Just finished Joe Louis: Hard Times Man, by Randy Roberts. pretty good book, mostly focused on what Louis meant to Americans rather than Louis himself.

Like a lot of boxing biographies I have read, the writer has what sounds like a pretty good knowledge of boxing but does not go into the essence of how this fighter fought stylistically. He says that when Chappie took over coaching the Bomber that he stopped Joe from stick and move style, slippery boxing and had him stand more flat footed and deliver power punches.

Not sure how well that describes how Joe fought but does anyone have any thoughts on it? I'm trying to watch some more vids of the Bomber in action and he certainly seemed to emphasize his power hitting.
8/22/11 2:10 PM
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Joe Ray
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He used little movement, a style meant to conserve energy by avoiding unneccessary moves.

And his punches were very compact and tight. Short and accurate.
8/22/11 7:42 PM
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Chappie
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Edited: 08/22/11 7:44 PM
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"He says that when Chappie took over coaching the Bomber that he stopped Joe from stick and move style, slippery boxing and had him stand more flat footed and deliver power punches."

The great Jack Blackburn reportedly patterned Louis' style after Joe Gans and Sam Langford. Blackburn stressed balance,short, compact punches and usage of feints to keep opponents off balance. Prior to meeting Blackburn, Louis was already an accomplished amatuer having won the 1934 national golden glove title.

Even as an amatuer, Louis was already a big puncher. In 54 amatuer bouts (50-4), Louis recorded 43 knockouts. Upon viewing Louis for the first time, Blackburn quickly saw Louis' potential, but also observed a number of flaws in Louis's stlye. Per everything that I ever read, prior to Blackburn, Louis had a tendency to over commit on punches and to punch prior to setting his feet. Upon becoming Louis' trainer, Blackburn had Louis do nothing but work on punching a heavybag for several weeks in order to concentrate on shortening Louis' punches.

As an amatuer Louis was trained by Alter Ellis, the owner of Stillman's Gym, and future hall of famer, Holman Williams.
8/22/11 7:53 PM
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Chappie
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I found this article online which is a hell of a lot better than anything that I said above.

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-435631.html
8/23/11 12:55 AM
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Diesel67
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 Max Schmeling feels the Brown Bomber's power
8/23/11 9:21 AM
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Ogami Itto
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Chappie - 
As an amatuer Louis was trained by Alter Ellis, the owner of Stillman's Gym, and future hall of famer, Holman Williams.


Thanks! But actually, that's not the name of the amateur trainer I remember from the book. I'll look it up, but Joe trained as an amateur in Detroit at a recreational league gym - not the Kronk but a rec center that probably isn't there anymore. I'll look it up.
8/23/11 9:24 AM
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Ogami Itto
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Looks like Joe had a pretty square stance.

Man, he was fucking mad for that second Schmeling fight. He told a friend before that fight, "I'm scared..... scared I'm going to kill him."
8/23/11 9:41 AM
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Ogami Itto
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Oh, look what I found, and scratch that about the square stance.

8/23/11 2:49 PM
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pharochuck
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Joe Ray - He used little movement, a style meant to conserve energy by avoiding unneccessary moves.

And his punches were very compact and tight. Short and accurate.
yes, tremendous sharp shooter for a heavy. i think in this era of guys who carry the left low and lunge on hooks and can't properly throw the right and often bring it back incorrectly, louis would be quite successful. i think size wouldn't be too much of an issue as guys like haye at 22 were 191 and louis at 22 was fighting at 200.
 
8/24/11 9:37 AM
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Ogami Itto
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It seems there's not as much parrying going on in the HW division these days. Maybe I'm wrong.
8/24/11 2:42 PM
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U4EA
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He was like a robot - but in the cyborg sense, not the Klitscho sense.

I think without question the greatest combination puncher in HW history. Incrediblely short, accurate, powerful and fluid combinations. Devastating with either hand. Tremendous finisher. I cant think off the top of my head one time he had a guy badly hurt and didnt put him away.

The fact that Blackburn taught Louis to move less shows you have good his footwork was - he needed a lot less movement than anyone else.

Only Ali and Dempsey were up to the task of beating him. Ali vs Louis was 50/50 but I think Dempsey would have been too much for him. Of the great HWs, he would have been most impressive against Foreman, who would have been hammered right down the middle as he came in with wide punches.
8/24/11 4:30 PM
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Ogami Itto
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I know next to nothing about Dempsey's style. Forum member martinburke posted about it quite a bit.
8/24/11 4:36 PM
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pharochuck
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U4EA -
I think Dempsey would have been too much for him. 
i'm gonna respectfully disagree. i don't think the manassas mauler would have had anything for him. fighter who came forward were tailor made for louis
8/25/11 5:47 AM
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Traditionalist
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Dempsey threw wide hooks a lot and rolling punches that were very simplistic. Sure it was effective, but feints to back him up and a more direct approach should be fit to beat him.


The gym Lewis trained at is gone. As are all good rec center gyms in Detroit, if not all (I know of none). KRONK is not even at the KRONK rec center anymore, its operated out of a store front in a neighboring town.
8/25/11 11:12 AM
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HULC
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I don't think anyone who's ever read Dempsey's book would describe his punches as simplistic. I think Dempsey had the speed and power to match Louis punch for punch... but in a match up of styles Dempsey plays to Louis' strengths, and i see him losing out.

On the other hand i think Marciano had the beating of Louis at any point in his career simply because he would have outworked Louis and disrupted him too much.
8/25/11 12:05 PM
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Chappie
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"He was like a robot - but in the cyborg sense, not the Klitscho sense."

Lol, good description. On another note, what the hell happened to Martin Burke? Perhaps he discovered black & white internet porn or those long lost topless photos of the woman that Stantly Ketchel got shot over, but I can't recall seeing him post on here in a few months.
8/25/11 12:44 PM
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Ogami Itto
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He popped up on an OG thread.
8/25/11 12:46 PM
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Traditionalist
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HULC - I don't think anyone who's ever read Dempsey's book would describe his punches as simplistic. I think Dempsey had the speed and power to match Louis punch for punch... but in a match up of styles Dempsey plays to Louis' strengths, and i see him losing out.

On the other hand i think Marciano had the beating of Louis at any point in his career simply because he would have outworked Louis and disrupted him too much.


His book still is the boxing bible. But boxing has still evolved leaps and bounds. For his time he was miles ahead of his competition. Still, in actual fights (The fights we have recordings of) he comes in wide. Guys tighten up to protect the body, he goes head, body, head, body and KO's and or mauls most men. It was very effective. It used advanced weight shifting, superb balance, raw KO power and his great mind to be one of the greats.

But his style of coming in tight, opening up with hooks and uppers was polished. Its called Mike Tyson. Smaller than anyone he fought, nasty KO power, weight shifting, level changes, and so on.

Tyson is not as smart as Dempsey, but has a more polished 'style' off of the Dempsey proto-type. Its amazing, but its not pure 'boxing' that we know.

The problem is, Dempsey had a wider arsenal than he used. His competition was at the point that pressure, opening up, and wide hooks and uppers will get you dozens of KO's. But going by the hypothetical is useless. A lot of boxers had 'more' to them. Does Floyd use the philly defense? Did Louis use his solid amateur 'standard' boxing to demolish the competition? Do the Klitschko brothers use the Detroit Hitman style they learned from Manny Steward? Does Pacman use his raw power and leaning in and out of punches like he did before he met Freddy Roach? The answer is no. Why? Something else is being used to win.

8/25/11 1:30 PM
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U4EA
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Chappie - On another note, what the hell happened to Martin Burke? Perhaps he discovered black & white internet porn or those long lost topless photos of the woman that Stantly Ketchel got shot over, but I can't recall seeing him post on here in a few months.


Just been on email with him. He's done posting here. Straight from Le Cheval's mouth...

"Saw your post on the Joe Louis thread on the OG. LOL at how fast people want to shoot down Dempsey.

Tried to contact chappie but I'm not a pro fighter. Wanted to tell him I don't post because there are too many know-it-all douchebags there...mods included"
8/25/11 1:37 PM
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Ogami Itto
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Boooo! Valued forum member martinburke.
8/25/11 1:57 PM
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OctopusFighter
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If martin's been run off it's a great loss to the forums, especially the boxing forum. I felt like I learned something just about every time he posted, even when I didn't fully agree with him.
8/25/11 2:15 PM
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Ogami Itto
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He was a fag anyway who knew jack shit about boxing.

*waits to see if this lures him back*
8/25/11 2:16 PM
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pharochuck
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HULC - I don't think anyone who's ever read Dempsey's book would describe his punches as simplistic. I think Dempsey had the speed and power to match Louis punch for punch... but in a match up of styles Dempsey plays to Louis' strengths, and i see him losing out.

On the other hand i think Marciano had the beating of Louis at any point in his career simply because he would have outworked Louis and disrupted him too much.
over the hill louis had a couple of good moments against marciano. i think a 10 year younger and 10 year sharper louis would have been able to match marciano's pressure. i see louis by decision. marciano was tough as nails, but charles and walcott looked pretty good against him and prime louis is just a significantly better fighter than them.
 
8/25/11 2:51 PM
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PoundforPound
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Yeah, no offense to Marciano, but I think a prime Joe Louis takes him out with no problem.
8/25/11 3:58 PM
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Ogami Itto
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Louis-Ali?

Louis-Charley Burley?

Louis-Jack Johnson?

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