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TMA UnderGround >> Karate for MMA?


9/6/11 9:23 PM
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coolio82394
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Specifically, adapting the movements, the strikes, and the defensive manuevers for a more straight foward, full contact style with takedowns and grappling involved. More specifically, learning how to set up different unorthodox kicks and punches, using sin no sin and go no sin to defend against different attacks and set up different strikes and takedowns.
9/8/11 2:52 PM
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Skpotamus
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Go to a mma gym, try to figure out ways to use your karate in practice against your partners.

You'll probably find most of the blocks don't work so well and adopt more boxing style head defenses. Also, that punching from the waist won't land often. Your upper body defense/hand work will probably start to look a LOT more like boxing than traditional martial arts whereas your kicks probably won't change too much.

YMMV.
9/10/11 5:56 PM
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Palmala Handerson
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Skpotamus - Go to a mma gym, try to figure out ways to use your karate in practice against your partners.

You'll probably find most of the blocks don't work so well and adopt more boxing style head defenses. Also, that punching from the waist won't land often. Your upper body defense/hand work will probably start to look a LOT more like boxing than traditional martial arts whereas your kicks probably won't change too much.

YMMV.


It works really well, a lot of the punching from the waist in Karate is more of an excercise than actual application.

Most people see Karate excercises and think that's EXACTLY the way it's applied IRL and it's not true. There's a lot of neat angular hook punches that are very effective in any situation not just MMA. Most trane UFC douche bags though are so brainwashed they have no idea what the hell they're talking about.
9/16/11 9:57 AM
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FRANKI2154
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i think styles like kyokushin or an offshoot can be beneficial to striking in mma
9/25/11 10:03 AM
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SamboMMA
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Skpotamus - Go to a mma gym, try to figure out ways to use your karate in practice against your partners.

You'll probably find most of the blocks don't work so well and adopt more boxing style head defenses. Also, that punching from the waist won't land often. Your upper body defense/hand work will probably start to look a LOT more like boxing than traditional martial arts whereas your kicks probably won't change too much.

YMMV.


Agreed. I was doing Oyama Karate[Kyokushin Karate offshoot]recently until the club shut down. We trained to use parries and shorter blocks instead of the the traditional blocks.
9/25/11 1:16 PM
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cdueck
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I believe that a big downfall of Kyokushin for mma is that they learn to stand and trade and don't move enough. There is many good things about it and it will make you tough as hell. 
9/25/11 1:28 PM
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SamboMMA
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Funny enough that's what fan and promoters want. Guys that just stand there and trade like Rock'em, Sock'em robots [ie. Bonnar-Griffin]
9/28/11 8:25 AM
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Outkaster
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Some of these assholes in MMA think that they know it all. The problem with some traditional arts is they leave you in a bad position for how an MMA fighter fights. You have to learn to adapt and that is hard once you have had training in a traditional system, but it is not impossible . Like someone pointed out already above it is more about exercise than application.
10/1/11 10:57 AM
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cdueck
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Yoshida, yes everybody loves the stand a trade guys. The problem I see with Kyokushin fighters is there lack of mobility makes it easier to get taken down. It is bad for the fighters but good for the crowd, I guess I should have been more clear. 
10/5/11 11:05 AM
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Twinkle Toes
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I personally just started adding it to my training and i think its very beneficial. It's a matter of figuring out what good to take from it and what to leave.

My kicks have gotten exponentially better. When sparring in my mma class i'll try stuff randomly and you'd be suprised how well a spinning cresant kick, side kick, or spinning back kick will work against a guy who's only done boxing and MT... Quiet a few times i'll land it and the guy will just put his hands down like "what the hell man? where'd that shit come form?".
10/5/11 7:22 PM
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FRANKI2154
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i agree with twinkle toes. you take what you can apply to your style that will work effectively. i have recently took up seiwakai combat karate, which is a kyokushin offshoot, and it definitely helps when sparring. kudo daido juku is a new form of karate mma which has everything mma does plus headbutts and minus ground and pound
10/21/11 10:55 AM
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Kolsyrade
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FRANKI2154 -and minus ground and pound

Actually Daido juku has G&P, but they are not allowed to put force into it. They just gets points for it.
10/25/11 12:00 PM
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MIKE CIESNOLEVICZ
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ttt
10/28/11 8:34 AM
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Kumite4
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Palmala Handerson - 
Skpotamus - Go to a mma gym, try to figure out ways to use your karate in practice against your partners.

You'll probably find most of the blocks don't work so well and adopt more boxing style head defenses. Also, that punching from the waist won't land often. Your upper body defense/hand work will probably start to look a LOT more like boxing than traditional martial arts whereas your kicks probably won't change too much.

YMMV.


It works really well, a lot of the punching from the waist in Karate is more of an excercise than actual application.

Most people see Karate excercises and think that's EXACTLY the way it's applied IRL and it's not true. There's a lot of neat angular hook punches that are very effective in any situation not just MMA. Most trane UFC douche bags though are so brainwashed they have no idea what the hell they're talking about.



Nicely put... The drills karate guys practice are no different than other arts but somehow people seem to think thats how they plan to fight.
10/29/11 11:04 PM
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Kolsyrade
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Edited: 10/29/11 11:10 PM
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 This is karate.

so is this

and this

and this


There are so many ways to do karate that you cannot say much about anything for certain. Some hold their hands low (usually solar plexus height) other shoulder high and some very high. It all depends on range, rules and the individual fighter. But noone chambers their guard at the hip in fighting.
 
Yes it is not uncommon to pull back one hand low in a punch, but that is not uncommon in other arts either

10/30/11 2:03 AM
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Kolsyrade
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Edited: 10/30/11 2:03 AM
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And then there are other uses for the "guard"/"chamber", Like the classic "grab&pull" application,  that is not easy to pull of against a sweaty, trained fighter with no sleeves to grab hold of, during a fight, but much more useful in other situations (where I live you can expect anyone attacking you to wear atleast a light jacket, for all but a few short weeks during summer).
Form:


Application:
 
11/1/11 12:23 PM
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MIKE CIESNOLEVICZ
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ttt
11/25/11 11:01 PM
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Bloodstorm
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alot of great post and Kolsyrade was right. There are so many styles of karate and they all have good things about them. Check out old videos of the World Combat League. The karate guys did well. You can also note that most of the karate guys did nothing but point fighting before hand.

Check out Raymond Daniels WCL videos. He uses a blend of point karate and TKD in his fighting.

I guess what i want to say is keep an open mind there is no best way and theres more then one way to skin a cat. Every style has something good to offer. Let it be footwork of point karate or clinch work from sabaki
11/30/11 4:07 PM
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Skpotamus
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Edited: 11/30/11 4:08 PM
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The above post showing a still shot of Joe Frazier throwing a hook at Ali with Frazier dropping his hand is somewhat misleading. Yes, frazier dropped his hand while punching, however, boxing uses more head movement and footwork for defense, doesn't have to deal with knees, kicks, and fighting from a body clinch, so it works for their rule sets. It can also work for most karate tournament rules since leg kicks, knees, clinch work, grappling etc aren't allowed. Besides, Frazier still kept his hands up in a guard when not attacking. He didn't keep them down around his waist like daniels did, and the way most karate schools train (at least all I've ever seen).

Ray Daniels first, and only, mma match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyZbaklbPXw

He didn't even land a single strike in the 7 minutes or so the match lasted. He kept his hands down by his waist and couldn't use anything in the match. He should've gone into a mma gym and tried some sparring with them beforehand to determine what would actually work and what wouldn't. Instead, it looks like the greatest karate point fighter today trained with his normal people his normal way and wasn't ready for someone fighting under mma rules. He got out struck (his opponent landed the only standing strike of the fight during the second round), got taken down and dominated the entire first round, and second round until he got submitted.

Now, would someone explain to me how the traditional blocks of karate can be used in mma? Hell, I don't see them used in karate tournaments.
12/3/11 1:08 PM
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Bloodstorm
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I hear you about Raymond, but i was saying his style of stand up could be used well in the cage. I think we all know if a striker isnt well rounded he wont do well. I also dont think him getting punched one time then getting OWNED on the ground doesnt point out how well his karate is. Last time I checked Karate was known for its stand up skill set and not its ground fighting.

His one fight was irrelevant unless he got a whooping while he was on his feet. So are we now saying San Shou wont work in mma b/c cung le lost? I sure hope not. I think every poster in this thread knows better then that
12/3/11 1:22 PM
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Bloodstorm
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Ok well his is a local fighter by me who is a good striker. Hes is a karate blackbelt. He told me his stand up style is a mix of Sport(point)karate,sabaki,muay thai,and american kickboxing. Ive seen the guy fight at least 5-6 times and in every fight Ive seen him do a few axe kicks,spinning back kicks.and sometimes side kicks

any blue name feel free to help me out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIZgrtp9b7g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm56fArjqZw&feature=fvsr

this is a kickboxing fight he lost but he fought up in weight vs a way bigger MT champ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d0sCmQTeVE
12/3/11 7:30 PM
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Kolsyrade
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Edited: 12/03/11 7:31 PM
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Bloodstorm - 
any blue name feel free to help me out







12/4/11 11:09 PM
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Skpotamus
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Bloodstorm - I hear you about Raymond, but i was saying his style of stand up could be used well in the cage. I think we all know if a striker isnt well rounded he wont do well. I also dont think him getting punched one time then getting OWNED on the ground doesnt point out how well his karate is. Last time I checked Karate was known for its stand up skill set and not its ground fighting.

His one fight was irrelevant unless he got a whooping while he was on his feet. So are we now saying San Shou wont work in mma b/c cung le lost? I sure hope not. I think every poster in this thread knows better then that


So Ray Daniels Style will work well for mma but he can't get it to work? Hmmm, methinks your logic is a bit faulty. This isn't 1993, people know what they need to train in to succeed as a striker in mma. Daniels didn't use any footwork or strikes, he moved straight forwards and backwards, didn't keep his hips back and didn't even try to sprawl. He didn't land anything on the feet at all. Using someone who failed to land a single strike in their mma match as an example of great striking skills for mma is kinda silly don't ya think? Use someone who actually does well that had a traditional background at least, like St. Pierre, Machida etc.

Re-read my posts, I've not said that karate won't work for mma or that karate sucks, I'm saying the traditional karate blocks and upper body strikes don't work well in mma and a lot of the training practices don't work well. At least, not that I've seen or experienced. I also said that the kicks probably won't change much but your upper body work will look more and more like boxing. The guy you cite, torrance taylor is a great example. He looks more like a thai boxer that throws the occasional TMA style kick (axe kick, side kick). In the muay thai vid posted he looked like a thai boxer who threw a few axe kicks.

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