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HolyGround >> Why do Christians interpret it as Thou... Kill?


9/15/11 11:01 AM
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Lymond
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I'm a Jew, grew up going to an Orthodox day school wherein we spent 1/2 the day on religion. We always learned that Commandment as a prohibition against murder. I didn't realize until much later that Christians say it is a prohibition against killing. Does anyone know why there is a difference?

Is it just a difference in translation, or is it a change brought about by Jesus, since from my limited knowledge he was about mercy/peace and turning the other cheek?

Given the above interpretation I don't get how any Christian could be a soldier, unless there is some sort of exception.
9/15/11 4:35 PM
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zealot66
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 its murder, but the early translators didnt refelect that so we get Kill instead of murder. Interesting how things like that happen, like urban legends. I woould like to comment on my opinion on soldiers and christians which we have discussed on here alot and I came across something the other day that adds another layer to the apparent lack of commandment one way or another.
9/15/11 7:51 PM
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JesusTapped
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IMO, translation issue or not, the "murder vs. killing" debate is nothing more than word play meant to justify the taking of life when deemed appropriate by man...

Rather than stand in conflict with "holy" mandates, man manipulates text when he sees fit. People say, "oh no, he meant this..." as if they were holding the candle by which these manuscripts were written.

Did God give up writing? I mean, couldn't he just give us an updated version of things so we can clear all this up? Phone Post
9/16/11 11:19 AM
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Lymond
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zealot66 -  its murder, but the early translators didnt refelect that so we get Kill instead of murder. Interesting how things like that happen, like urban legends. I woould like to comment on my opinion on soldiers and christians which we have discussed on here alot and I came across something the other day that adds another layer to the apparent lack of commandment one way or another.


Thanks, I was wondering if it was translation or choice, nice to have an answer.

Tapped, in this case semantics is important. Much like the interpretation of modern laws.
9/16/11 3:08 PM
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Grakman
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Tapped, on what basis do you personally judge whether killing another human being is wrong? Phone Post
9/16/11 4:22 PM
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JesusTapped
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Grakman - Tapped, on what basis do you personally judge whether killing another human being is wrong? Phone Post
Not a Biblical basis, that's for sure...

You see, I don't believe that the concepts of "right and wrong" originated from holy texts. I believe in societal dos and dont's...and it's from that notion of the greater good that I find my personal barring.

I believe, for example, that some people are so dangerous that - in the interest if the greater good - they should be killed. Pedafiles come to mind quite readily. An adult who looks upon a child with sexual intent should, in my opinion, be killed.

But I don't feel the need to reconcile the killing of a pedafile (sp) any further than I did above. In fact, to kill that pedafile, regardless of the intention behind the killing is, indeed, murder. And I'm perfectly okay with that. To kill intentionally is to murder.

I don't splice hairs. Taking life is murder...and it doesn't effect my opinion on life taking in the least. Phone Post
9/17/11 10:20 AM
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zealot66
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 There are hebrew words for kill and murder.
9/17/11 5:59 PM
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Grakman
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Glad you only dislike pedophiles.

If someone thinks someone else is dangerous, say Jews or black people for instance, is it ok to kill them? As your metric for justifiable murder appears to be based on one's personal opinion of danger, that would be ok if the murderer thinks they're dangerous, right? Phone Post
9/18/11 8:58 AM
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JesusTapped
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Grakman - Glad you only dislike pedophiles.

If someone thinks someone else is dangerous, say Jews or black people for instance, is it ok to kill them? As your metric for justifiable murder appears to be based on one's personal opinion of danger, that would be ok if the murderer thinks they're dangerous, right? Phone Post
I was asked my opinion, I gave it. I didn't preface my statement with any suggestions for society at large...

I used the example of a pedophile deserving death, IMO of course. How YOU make the leap from pedophiles (individuals who engage in unquestionably inhumane acts of sexual violence) to "black people" is beyond me...and is actually kinda scary.

The question I was asked regarded the considerations I would make when sanctioning death. My example highlighted behavior....not ethnicity, race, sexual orientation, cognitive functioning, iris color, or any other superficial attribute.

I would suggest societies judge individuals based upon their actions as well.

But, since we're in the HG forums, what does your holy book say? I'm not sure if you have a religion but most suggest much harsher penalties for much more minor offenses than I described....didn't God tell the Iranians to stone a woman to death for adultery last year?? Phone Post
9/18/11 10:36 AM
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Lahi
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zealot66 -  I woould like to comment on my opinion on soldiers and christians which we have discussed on here alot and I came across something the other day that adds another layer to the apparent lack of commandment one way or another.


If you have a minute I'd be interested to hear it.
9/18/11 12:16 PM
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Lahi
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Its a subject that's almost always in the back of my mind. I know I've sounded pretty dogmatic about non-violence on here before. Right now I'm at a point where I think we are at least called to be as non-violent as we can. I really don't know what we should do when faced with no other choice anymore.

I still think the pro-war Christians are missing something. Its a very complicated issue for me. I don't make it a line in the sand issue with friends or fellow believers. With my pro-war, cop and military friends, I don't usually say straight out that I believe in non-violence unless they ask. I usually try and get them to take a serious look at Jesus teachings when the issue comes up, try to get some discussion going, and share as much as I can without them tuning me out. I don't deny what I believe either, but maybe I am being a hypocrite here I don't know.
9/19/11 12:33 AM
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yusul
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at the very least, the english word kill doesn't make sense in this context, or else we'd be required to eat the way jainism prescribes.
10/16/11 4:40 PM
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rls99
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I am a Christian, and have always gone with the "Thou shalt not murder," version. Taking a life is sometimes "not a bad thing." Check out Exodus 22:2. Pretty old-school, but if someone breaks into my house at night, I will sleep comfortably after removing him with a 12-gauge. Not to mention, the old testament is filled with more wars and bloodshed than the Malazan series.
11/2/11 11:25 AM
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reverend john
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Though I love the Malazan reference, I believe Jesus shows us a more perfect way, and that you cannot love your enemy and kill him. Traditionally the word murder did not include blood revenge, capital punishment, self defense or legitimate war.

rev
11/4/11 1:50 AM
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yusul
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^i agree with rev in that you cannot love your enemy and kill him. there is the example of Jesus healing the Centurian's ear after Peter cut it off, even though Jesus knew the Centurian was there to deliver him to those who would crucify him.
12/5/11 11:20 PM
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TheStewedOwl
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Depends on which English translation you use:

New International Version (©1984)
"You shall not murder.

New Living Translation (©2007)
"You must not murder.

English Standard Version (©2001)
“You shall not murder.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"You shall not murder.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Thou shalt not kill.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"Never murder.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
You shall not kill.

American King James Version
You shall not kill.

American Standard Version
Thou shalt not kill.

Bible in Basic English
Do not put anyone to death without cause.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Thou shalt not kill.

Darby Bible Translation
Thou shalt not kill.

English Revised Version
Thou shalt do no murder.

Webster's Bible Translation
Thou shalt not kill.

World English Bible
"You shall not murder.

Young's Literal Translation
'Thou dost not murder.

There are others of course. The Hebrew word used is RATSACH, which is generally used for unjustified or felonious murder.

There were many Christians who were soldiers, and saints such as St. Joan of Arc, St. John of Capistrano, etc.,
12/6/11 11:35 AM
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reverend john
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not til later, the first 150 years there were no Christian soldiers. There is a story where one man was converted to Christianity and then executed the same day (as he knew he would be) as he could no longer bear the sword. Christianity was almost exclusively non violent till 150, and mostly non violent until around 360 where Augustine's just war theory made Christian inclusion in war acceptable to the church.

rev
12/6/11 2:06 PM
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TheStewedOwl
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reverend john - not til later, the first 150 years there were no Christian soldiers. There is a story where one man was converted to Christianity and then executed the same day (as he knew he would be) as he could no longer bear the sword. Christianity was almost exclusively non violent till 150, and mostly non violent until around 360 where Augustine's just war theory made Christian inclusion in war acceptable to the church.

rev


Well, there numbers were initially few, Rev, but I wouldn't say there were NO Christian soldiers for the first 150 years. Matthew 8:5 tells of a Centurion who converted to Christianity, and there are other mentions, if memory serves, of Roman soldiers who were convinced of the truth of Christianity. Christian distaste for serving in the Roman army may have had less to do with pacifism and more to do with the official pagan rituals in which the army participated, and the use of the army to oppress Christian communities.

Before 360, the 40 Martyrs of Sebaste, all soldiers of the Legio XII Fulminata (Armed with Lightning) were martyred for the Christian faith in 320 en masse in Armenia. Their feast day is March 10 in the Orthodox liturgical calendar.
12/7/11 11:31 AM
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reverend john
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Justin Martyr said, "when Christ disarmed Peter, he disarmed us all"

and there was strict orders that anyone serving in the army, or as a judge or athlete (gladiator) had to renounce the sword in order to be baptised.

So yes, they were converted, but not they did not stay soldiers. As with the anarchic nature of the church, the prominence of women, and communal economics, things very quickly started to mirror the world around them. This is very normal, and the result of not taking seriously the spiritual battle we are always under.

rev
12/9/11 10:53 AM
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reverend john
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Jesus told Peter, "lay down your sword, those that live by the sword die by it"

He also said, "love your enemies, and do good to those that persecute you"

He also said, "do not return evil for evil, but return good for evil"

and also, "do not violently resist an evil man"

The early church understood that following Jesus was not just about believing the right set of doctrines, but adhering to a new way of life, the birthing of God's kingdom into this world. And those that wished to become a part of this community were to submit to this new world, which was a non violent reality.

rev

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