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HolyGround >> Have you ever converted someone?

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9/28/11 9:38 PM
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JesusTapped
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reverend john - and it means more than intelectual assent to doctrine. The truth is that the enemy understands the correct doctrine, true biblical belief means following the commands of Jesus.

There once was a man who walked a tight rope across niagra falls. Everyone cheered. He then walked a wheelbarrow across. Then filled it and walked it across to the cheers of the crowds. Then he announced he would walk across pushing someone in the wheelbarrow. Everyone shouted their approval. He asked if they all believed he could do it, and they all shouted their affirmation. Then he asked for a volunteer and it appears belief did not mean what they thought it meant. Nobody got in the bucket.

rev
Who exactly is the "enemy", rev? Phone Post
9/29/11 4:12 AM
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DyingBreed
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JT, have you read "the screwtape letters" by cs lewis? whether you believe in God or not, it is an excellent read, i promise. its from the point of view of a senior demon writing to his nephew on how to keep the human he is in charge of. it sheds light on "the human condition" and a masterpiece of literature in my opinion.


just thought i would offer
9/29/11 9:27 AM
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reverend john
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Edited: 09/29/11 11:03 AM
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well I could cop out and say Satan

But I believe that Satan is the personification, the very real form and reality, of the domination system that controls the world. It is the corporate identity that all corporate identities that are not submitted to God are submitted to. How that exactly works, I am not sure. Whether it means that a fallen angelic physical being has created this corporate identity and controls it, or if the identity was created by humanity and this angel controls it, or it was created by man and this fallen angel is the result of this creation... I just don't know. But I cannot look at the killing fields, the starvation in the horn of Africa, the corporate greed of America and not believe in evil corporate identities. And I believe they are demonic.

rev
9/29/11 11:41 AM
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ironmongoose
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reverend john - and it means more than intelectual assent to doctrine. The truth is that the enemy understands the correct doctrine, true biblical belief means following the commands of Jesus.

There once was a man who walked a tight rope across niagra falls. Everyone cheered. He then walked a wheelbarrow across. Then filled it and walked it across to the cheers of the crowds. Then he announced he would walk across pushing someone in the wheelbarrow. Everyone shouted their approval. He asked if they all believed he could do it, and they all shouted their affirmation. Then he asked for a volunteer and it appears belief did not mean what they thought it meant. Nobody got in the bucket.

rev

Now you sound like you get it.
9/29/11 12:13 PM
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zealot66
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Edited: 09/29/11 12:14 PM
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John, how would you answer this:
coorporations are neither good nor evil. Its like a gun. Its all in the use. The starvation you speak of and the oppression is only taken away when western civilization moves in and puts people to work. The congo is a particular interest to me and the fighting in the EAST kivu provinces. They live in the jungle mountains with no civil authority only to be rampaged and raped by whoever has the most guns. There lives will only be better when the area is tamed by law and infrastructure is built. There isnt another answer. This new movie Machine Gun preacher should be an interesting thing to think about. Where there is no capitalism, the people suffer. YOu cant show a place where this isnt true. John I love you but full bore socialism just doesnt work. The wealth has to come from somewhere.  

All of the places in the world that suffer are at the hands of despotic dictators where people have no freedom.
9/29/11 12:58 PM
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reverend john
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and how does despotic dictators not fit the criteria of the global system of oppression? Whenever any system or structure of power, is not submitted to God, it is a fallen entity. The entity is a personality of its own, and works for the oppression of people. In democracy you can have the oppression of the minority by the majority. In many instances that you have called out the despotic rulers are supported by corporations and governments as it helps them.

I am not a socialist, I am a Christian anarchist, big difference. However, I could be persuaded that God seeks to redeem even the powers

rev
9/29/11 5:30 PM
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JesusTapped
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reverend john - well I could cop out and say Satan

But I believe that Satan is the personification, the very real form and reality, of the domination system that controls the world. It is the corporate identity that all corporate identities that are not submitted to God are submitted to. How that exactly works, I am not sure. Whether it means that a fallen angelic physical being has created this corporate identity and controls it, or if the identity was created by humanity and this angel controls it, or it was created by man and this fallen angel is the result of this creation... I just don't know. But I cannot look at the killing fields, the starvation in the horn of Africa, the corporate greed of America and not believe in evil corporate identities. And I believe they are demonic.

rev
Not to descend into a semantical debate, but I'm assuming this demonic entity you speak of is, for lack of a better phrase, a literal supernatural being? Just curious. I suppose if you're going to follow the teachings and writings within the Bible, you'd have to believe in these "supernatural" entities' actual existence. And I presume you do, as you also reference fallen angels...

I appreciate that. Many Christians attempt to intellectualize the Bible. Suddenly, anything that is supernatural or beyond logical explanation becomes parable. Almost as if to correct scripture, to proclaim, "..well, you see, what it's REALLY saying is..." rather than accepting the words on the page.

While I'll likely not often agree with your viewpoints, it's nice to see conviction in believers. Makes me a little less cynical.

....a little. Phone Post
9/29/11 5:35 PM
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reverend john
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I believe that often the two go hand in hand. Like I said, in different words, whether it was a supernatural being that built this culture of oppression, or took control of what we already built, or came into being as a result of our building it, I am not sure. I also believe in the literal physical resurrection of Jesus, the virgin birth (though I do not think this is as important as some and hate how some use it to make sex sinful) and the miracles of Jesus. I believe God created the world, but did so in stages, as the bible alludes to. I believe that these things are historical realities, and also parables and metaphors.

rev
9/29/11 5:59 PM
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JesusTapped
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reverend john - I believe that often the two go hand in hand. Like I said, in different words, whether it was a supernatural being that built this culture of oppression, or took control of what we already built, or came into being as a result of our building it, I am not sure. I also believe in the literal physical resurrection of Jesus, the virgin birth (though I do not think this is as important as some and hate how some use it to make sex sinful) and the miracles of Jesus. I believe God created the world, but did so in stages, as the bible alludes to. I believe that these things are historical realities, and also parables and metaphors.

rev
You see, the problem (for me anyway) is the Bible doesn't have footnotes which state, "this verse is literal" or otherwise. This gives a lot of room for interpretation..something you may not desire in a holy text that serves, if only in part, as a guide for living.

I mean, where would it end? If we intellectualize a seven day creation of the earth, why not do the same for resurrection? Most Christians have abandoned the literal interpretation of Noah's arc, which causes me to ask from whom the received their editorial credentials.

Shouldn't Christians assume God meant what he said? Interpretation is a slippery slope when your talking the word of God. Keep going and it's just the word of man, no? Phone Post
9/29/11 6:16 PM
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reverend john
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I think you can often tell by how something is written. Genesis is written in a mythological style, and even in a way contradicts itself in the first two chapters.

As to what to take literally and what to take figuratively... Well that is the essence of interpretation, and everyone is forced to do it. You cannot just take everything literally as it is an interesting book with many different forms of writing and the use of narrative devices like hyperbole, metaphor and apocalyptic style.

So is it the word of God? Yes Is it also the word of man? yes, which is why there is the Spirit to guide us, and Christ among us.

rev
9/29/11 6:38 PM
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gord96
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reverend john - So is it the word of God? Yes Is it also the word of man? yes, which is why there is the Spirit to guide us, and Christ among us.

rev


good points. i remember when I thought the Bible was hogwash. Even when I thought I was a Christian, I just thought it was a dumb book of rules and stories and what not and I was going to find Jesus myself. years later, when God regenerated my heart, the Bible came alive and the Spirit has guided me in God's word ever since.

So in short, if a person is not a Christian, I can understand why the the Bible is really nothing to them. It's silly when a Christian tries to prove a point to a non believer by saying "the Bible says it's so.." because to a non believer that means nothing.
9/29/11 7:14 PM
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JesusTapped
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reverend john - I think you can often tell by how something is written. Genesis is written in a mythological style, and even in a way contradicts itself in the first two chapters.

As to what to take literally and what to take figuratively... Well that is the essence of interpretation, and everyone is forced to do it. You cannot just take everything literally as it is an interesting book with many different forms of writing and the use of narrative devices like hyperbole, metaphor and apocalyptic style.

So is it the word of God? Yes Is it also the word of man? yes, which is why there is the Spirit to guide us, and Christ among us.

rev
Without getting too critical, your theory on biblical interpretation isn't shared by all...which contributes to my point. A quick glance at Christianity tells the story...sects and subsects all formed out of differing interpretations. Methodists, Lutherans, Baptists, 1st Baptist, Southern Baptist, Episcopalians, Shakers, Quakers, Coptic, Ethiopian Orthodox, Orthodox...all have differing takes on Christianity's tenants and interpretations. And all are as certain as you that they have the "Correct" interpretation. That's why religion loses me. Is it not good enough to be a good person, live well, show kindness and respect to others...without the adoption of deities, mythologies, and some reward of everlasting eternal bliss? We have to do all that and then worship the right way...when no one seems to agree on how to do that.

When I look up into the night's sky and see countless stars, beyond which exist countless galaxies within countless universes, I'm content to KNOW that there is SOOOO much beyond the present reach
and scope of the human mind. I'm just happy to be a part of it. I dont need myths, real or otherwise, to help me fit it all safely in an understandable box. Phone Post
9/29/11 7:43 PM
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reverend john
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I completely understand every point you made. I feel much the same. Except I cannot unring the bell of Gods spirit. As far as divisions well that is the problem when you minor on action and major on esoteric understandings of words

Rev Phone Post
9/30/11 9:04 AM
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zealot66
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 JT, I feel I've moved on from those insane things that divide christians. I have a personal faith that is christian but it leaves me out in the cold except maybe at Johns house ( he seems to take in anybody!) so having a critical eye is often the death nail for people seeking fellowship with 99.9 percent of other christians.

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