UnderGround Forums
 

Anaconda No-Gi UnderGround >> Where did Rousimar Palhares Get His Leglocks?


9/16/11 3:19 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Tap21
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 09/16/11 4:35 AM
Member Since: 2/18/03
Posts: 1759
 
FRAT Warning!

Just a few random thoughts that have been rumbling around in my head about the source of Toquinho's leg lock skills.

Rousimar "Toquinho" Palhares, seemingly from the start of his MMA career, has presented that rare combination of excellent takedowns coupled with excellent lower body submissions.

He is one of the most exciting, albeit controversial, MMA fighters out there right now. He is exciting for two simple reasons...he actually tries to submit his opponents and he actually presents a credible threat that he can do it.

For many grapplers, his recently confirmed inclusion in the ADCC submission grappling tournament represents a glimmer of hope that the entire competition won't be mired in 50/50 position man-scissor boredom.

So, what educational forces produced this combination of elite takedowns and leglocks? Interestingly, neither excellent wrestling takedowns or excellent leglocks are generally included as the obvious hallmarks of BJJ. So, how did BTT (historically referred to as a BJJ based team) produce such an individual? Well, it's logical that his takedowns were rightly crafted at the hands of the long-time BTT wrestling coach, Darrel Gholar. But, where did his leglocks from?

BTT grapplers of the past did not seem to be standout in the leglock department. Murilo Bustamante, Mario Sperry, Ricardo Arono, Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, Antonio Rogerio Nogueira. None of these past BTT superstars ever showed the leglock skills of Toquinho. Also, the Carlson Gracie lineage BJJ that spawned these stars was also never known for a focus on the leglocks that BJJ practitioners in Rio de Janeiro had long ago dubbed "suburban techniques" (a pejorative linking leglocks with the poverty ridden suburbs of Rio). So we need to investigate further.

It's possible that Toquinho developed these techniques before he ever came to BTT. So, we will need to look back in history. Below is a video that purports to be of a 2004 Brazilian smoker fight featuring Toquinho. In this video, Toquinho's takedown's are obviously only a shadow of what he possesses today, and his grappling on the ground seems to consist almost entirely that of a standard guard player who only goes for armbars and the occasional triangle or backtake. What is definitely not featured is any kind of uber smooth mastery of leglocks. In fact, I could not find any leglock attempts or anything that indicated advanced (or any) leglock knowledge at all. So, it looks like Toquinho's training during 2004 and prior does not seem to be the source of his leglock mastery.

So, if the first generation of BTT didn't develop the super advanced leglocks of today's Toquinho, and he didn't seem to possess those skills (at least in the fight below) before BTT, where did he get them? The answer may lie in what was happening at BTT just prior to the time when Toquinho arrived there. It was invaded by a contingent of young and extremely technical no-gi luta livre black belts like Eraldo Paes, Milton Vieira, Bicudo, Carlos Clayton, William Parrudinho, Alexandre "Cacareco" Ferreira and Maicon Alarcao. Despite, the bloody BJJ x Luta Livre rivalry of past decades, BTT opened it's arms to the newest generation of its old enemies. This integration of luta livre into BTT was so complete that Eraldo Paes was made the submission wrestling coach for BTT (see http://www.onthemat.com/articles/Inside_Brazilian_Top_Team_09_21_2006.html). Further, the luta livre fighters were all eventually awarded BJJ blackbelts, and this was only topped by an award of a luta livre black belt to Murilo Bustamante himself (see http://www.graciemag.com/en/2010/11/murilo-bustamante-receives-yet-another-black-belt/).

This integration of luta livre into BTT has already been credited with the proliferation of the anaconda choke as it was Antonia Rodrigo Nogueira's use of the choke in Pride FC that led to its widespread mainstream popularity among grapplers, and it is widely understood that Nogueira learned the choke from luta livre black belt Milton Vieira. What's more important for the exploration here is that at least one person who claims to have trained at BTT alongside Toquinho, claims that Toquinho became a standout at BTT under the tutelage of the aforementioned luta livre black belt, Eraldo Paes (see http://herochat.com/forum/index.php?topic=215218.120;wap2).

Obviously, these are just bits and pieces of information, but if what's suggested by the information above is true; then the two best weapons of BTT's biggest current star, his takedowns and his leglocks, are the products of American Wrestling and luta livre. Back in the Pride glory days of BTT, I would never have imagined a near future where the biggest star at BTT would not count BJJ among his most primary weapons.

I'm sure someone else here has some additional information they can chime in with. Maybe this is already common knowledge about the source of Toquinho's skills, but as someone who followed the long string of excellent fights in Pride by the past BTT superstars who were strongly identified with BJJ, it is a little startling to realize how complete the integration of luta livre is at BTT.
9/16/11 3:20 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Tap21
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/18/03
Posts: 1760
2004 Fight where Toquinho seems to be a standard guard player who mainly goes for armbars and the occasional triangle or backtake.
9/16/11 4:45 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Shemhazai
23 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/27/08
Posts: 272
Agreed for the most part, but Toquinho definitely has primary weapons that are of BJJ origin. He loves the armbar from back control, for one.
9/17/11 5:46 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Tap21
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 09/18/11 1:03 AM
Member Since: 2/18/03
Posts: 1761
Yes, you can see him hitting the armbar from back control in his training video with Mayhem.

But, in MMA competition his record shows only 2 armbars out of 9 sub finishes. One was against Salaverry and was from back control. The other was against Renan Moraes five years ago. I haven't seen video on that one. In any case, armbars have accounted for only 22% of his sub finishes in MMA according to his published record.

Compared to those 2 armbars, he has 6 finishes by leglock (66% of his sub finishes).

He definitely has awesome all around grappling, no one can deny that. But, the primary source of his sub finishes (2/3 of them) have been leglocks.
9/18/11 11:27 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Shemhazai
23 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/27/08
Posts: 274
Sure. All I'm saying is that he's still very much a BJJ fighter, even though he has a heavy luta livre influence. The eclectic style is what makes BTT so friggin' awesome.
9/21/11 3:05 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Mayweedz
9 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/30/00
Posts: 747
I think you are looking to deep into it. Some people just seem to be good at leg locks, they can just manage to clamp down on the leg and mold the other person's leg in the position that they want. And unless you are learning how to chain together combinations of leg locks, getting the positioning is in some ways is less technical than other techniques. I've known guys who have managed to learn leg locks off of videos and in a short period of time are very good at.
9/21/11 9:13 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Tap21
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/18/03
Posts: 1764
Yes, I definitely know people who have developed really good leglock skills on their own from video and etc.

But, there are some factors here that indicate a luta livre origin for Palhare's leglock skills:

--He didn't exhibit any leglock skills at all in the 2004 fight above (prior to which he trained BJJ).

--He moves to BTT where it is reported that his main teacher was Eraldo Paes who happens to be a black belt in luta livre, a discipline that is great at leg locks.

--At this same time there is also an influx of other training partners for Palhares who are also luta livre fighters who he can work on leglocks with.

--The luta livre influence at BTT becomes so strong that even Murilo Bustamante is eventually awarded a luta livre black belt.

It could be that he developed these leglock skills on his own. But, it would also seem very plausible and even logical that he developed them under the tutelage of the aforementioned crew of luta livre guys at BTT.
9/21/11 11:45 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Hunter V
39 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 8265
makes sense, esp as most of the luta livre guys were also awarded full bjj black belts when they came to BTT and trained with them so much. So ONCE AGAIN, we have no gi bjj black belts! And guys in the US are stunned yet again, lol.
9/22/11 2:26 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
MickColins
156 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/14/08
Posts: 6656
 Yea, those old school Carlson guys didn't know leg locks. Oh wait. 


A screencap from the Wallid Ismail vale tudo vhs series from the 90s. That included a volume on...leglocks. zomg
9/22/11 2:39 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
MickColins
156 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/14/08
Posts: 6657
 And here's a pic of Carlson Sr from the old book he did doing a footlock. Zounds! But remember, BJJ guys didn't know footlocks. Only LL guys did.


9/23/11 11:09 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
skkrocks
20 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/9/04
Posts: 11
Mario sperry told me that toquino was the best sub grappler he'd ever seen. He didn't say jiu jitsu fighter, but sub grappler specifically. His compact build makes his entries into bent leg submissions more efficient than a lankier person. I remember BTT guys going after leg locks like crazy during a black belt only no gi class i sat in on back in 2005. They also tapped to them before they were ever even close to being finished. On that same trip, i got a nice intro to leg locking and leg lock prevention from roberto leitao, the father of luta livre/king of leg locks (as he's referred to in rio). I have played butterfly guard as my primary open guard style ever since Phone Post
9/23/11 6:18 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Tap21
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/18/03
Posts: 1767
MickColins -  And here's a pic of Carlson Sr from the old book he did doing a footlock. Zounds! But remember, BJJ guys didn't know footlocks. Only LL guys did.





Yeah, BJJ guys have always done non-reaping leg attacks. But, those non-reaping attacks are not the kind of advanced reaping leg attacks that I am talking about. As everyone knows, those kinds of advanced reaping leg attacks are still NOT EVEN LEGAL in BJJ.

There is a world of difference between the old BJJ leglock instructionals and something like Reilly Bodycomb's "SAMBO Leglocks for No-gi". His SAMBO based approach is just 100X more sophisticated.
9/23/11 6:23 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Tap21
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/18/03
Posts: 1768
skkrocks - Mario sperry told me that toquino was the best sub grappler he'd ever seen. He didn't say jiu jitsu fighter, but sub grappler specifically. His compact build makes his entries into bent leg submissions more efficient than a lankier person. I remember BTT guys going after leg locks like crazy during a black belt only no gi class i sat in on back in 2005. They also tapped to them before they were ever even close to being finished. On that same trip, i got a nice intro to leg locking and leg lock prevention from roberto leitao, the father of luta livre/king of leg locks (as he's referred to in rio). I have played butterfly guard as my primary open guard style ever since Phone Post


This is indicative of the strong luta livre influence at BTT. Sperry's choice of words also seems very telling as to the influence on Toquino's game specifically.
9/23/11 6:26 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Tap21
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/18/03
Posts: 1769
Hunter V - makes sense, esp as most of the luta livre guys were also awarded full bjj black belts when they came to BTT and trained with them so much. So ONCE AGAIN, we have no gi bjj black belts! And guys in the US are stunned yet again, lol.



Yeah, the U.S. BJJ community may have a "trying to be more Catholic than the Vatican" thing going on when it comes to awarding BJJ belts to purely no-gi guys.
9/24/11 2:51 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
MickColins
156 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/14/08
Posts: 6666
 

"But, those non-reaping attacks are not the kind of advanced reaping leg attacks that I am talking about. As everyone knows, those kinds of advanced reaping leg attacks are still NOT EVEN LEGAL in BJJ. "

That's a screencap from the Wallid video. He shows heelhooks and reaps. OMG

9/24/11 3:50 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Tap21
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/18/03
Posts: 1776
That pic illustrates my point.

That finishing position is much less safe than the positions advocated by guys like Bodycomb (Wallid's right ankle is vulnerable to an inside heelhook if the other guy just pushes it across his torso). Yet, even that vulnerable position, to the extent it involves reaping and the heel hook, would still be illegal in BJJ.
9/24/11 12:58 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
MickColins
156 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/14/08
Posts: 6667
Tap21 - That pic illustrates my point.

That finishing position is much less safe than the positions advocated by guys like Bodycomb (Wallid's right ankle is vulnerable to an inside heelhook if the other guy just pushes it across his torso). Yet, even that vulnerable position, to the extent it involves reaping and the heel hook, would still be illegal in BJJ.
Now you are just moving the goal posts. First, you claimed BTT guys had to have learned footlocks from luta live. I show a guy who trained up with the original BTT crew showing footlocks on old VHS . Also showed the guy who trained them showing a footlock. Then you claimed they didn't do sophisticated, leg reaping foot attacks. I show a screencap from the VHS vid, which you have apparently never seen, and you critique it. So now you are apparently evaluating the lessons content via 1 screencap that just shows leg reaping, which you previously stated wasn't taught by Bjj guys.

Now I know this is the Internet where people can never admit fault but can we atleast admit that the BTT/Carlson guys knew leglocks? Carlson Sr. brought in wrestling coaches, boxing guys,had nogi classes etc.. He wasn't opposed to non-traditional Bjj like some. Phone Post
9/25/11 1:38 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Tap21
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/18/03
Posts: 1786
Actually, that is not what I said.

Your post:
"First, you claimed BTT guys had to have learned footlocks from luta live."


I actually said this:
"BTT grapplers of the past did not seem to be standout in the leglock department. Murilo Bustamante, Mario Sperry, Ricardo Arono, Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, Antonio Rogerio Nogueira. None of these past BTT superstars ever showed the leglock skills of Toquinho."

I also said that Carlson Gracie BJJ never showed a focus on leglocks. I meant this in comparison to other disciplines such as luta livre, as was implied by my reference to the pejorative label of "suburban techniques". This was a statement about comparitive extent of focus, not about existence or non-existence.

I also said: "It could be that he developed these leglock skills on his own. But, it would also seem very plausible and even logical that he developed them under the tutelage of the aforementioned crew of luta livre guys at BTT."


Your post:
"Then you claimed they didn't do sophisticated, leg reaping foot attacks. So now you are apparently evaluating the lessons content via 1 screencap that just shows leg reaping, which you previously stated wasn't taught by Bjj guys."


I actually said this:
"But, those non-reaping attacks are not the kind of advanced reaping leg attacks that I am talking about. As everyone knows, those kinds of advanced reaping leg attacks are still NOT EVEN LEGAL in BJJ. "


There is a huge difference between what I would call "ADVANCED reaping leg attacks" and the pics you have posted here. While the Wallid pic may be a reaping attack, it is not what I would call an "advanced reaping leg attack" for the reason I explained in my previous post. Also, I never said anything about any lessons. My comments only addressed that pic as I specified in the post in question.

I'm sure there is some pic or video out there of a BJJ guy back in the day doing a leg lock that is on the same level of sophistication as the stuff guys like Bodycomb are promoting. But, the stuff you have posted here is consistent with the BJJ leglock material I always saw back in the day......it is just much less sophisticated.

BJJ guys as a group seem in the past to have always been behind in the leglock department compared to some other styles such as SAMBO or luta livre. It is just a different emphasis. This emphasis is illustrated perfectly by the choice of the BJJ world to outlaw heelhooks and reaping. It's just not their focus.

BTT has always been a great gym that produced great fighters. But, the focus on leglocks shown by Toquinho simply wasn't shown by the first generation of Sperry, Bustamante, the Nogs, Arona, and etc. Something changed that allowed for Toquinho to develop and exhibit such skill at leglocks. Like I said above, it could be he learned them on his own, but it is also very plausible that this change was the influx of luta livre fighters into BTT.
9/25/11 2:05 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
MickColins
156 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 7/14/08
Posts: 6677
Firstly, if I simplified your initial points too much, my apologies.

 "I also said that Carlson Gracie BJJ never showed a focus on leglocks. I meant this in comparison to other disciplines such as luta livre, as was implied by my reference to the pejorative label of "suburban techniques. This was a statement about comparitive extent of focus, not about existence or non-existence."

The "Suburban Techniques" thing is what initially caused my furry eyebrow to arch. I asked a Gracie once about the footlocks thing and he told me simply that "We had lots of guys who had jobs, school,etc.. and were afraid to get injured by footlocks so they avoided them and their training partners would,too". Now, I also heard a Gracie rip footlocks as dirty but I think he was in the minority. It just always seems weird to me when people think the Gracies had this borg-style groupthink where they all agreed and conspired on things. And, personally, I think the leg reaping/heelhook ban in IBJJF competitions stems from the IBJJF being run by Gracie Barra and GB caters a whole bunch to people with jobs/school/casuals. I agree that the ban is stupid.

I think LL guys who trained with the old school Carlson team and later BTT probably had no such qualms about limping to work or soccer practice so you'd naturally do more footlocks since the counter to many foot and leg attacks is to start attacking the other guys legs. But I think the guys who trained at the old Carlson and BTT teams were more hardcore overall and were much more likely to train footlocks,takedowns,punches,etc.. 

"There is a huge difference between what I would call "ADVANCED reaping leg attacks" and the pics you have posted here. While the Wallid pic may be a reaping attack, it is not what I would call an "advanced reaping leg attack" "

Well, I would disagree in the sense that you are splitting hairs. Do Hayastan/Sambo guys have more entries and set ups? Sure. But thats because its an area they focus on much,much more than BJJ. Doesn't mean that all the BJJ guys have poopy/grade school leglocks and entries. The way I figure it, grappling is like mechanics. Some specialize in BMWs, Fords,etc.. but they can all do the basics. From what I originally took from your post was that all BJJ guys lacked footlock/leg attacks and my point was that is false. There seems to be growing memes on message boards about BJJ where blanket statements like "BJJ lacks takedowns", "Judo guys can't do shit without a Gi",  "BJJ guys hate footlocks",etc... and memes drive me insane. 

"Something changed that allowed for Toquinho to develop and exhibit such skill at leglocks. Like I said above, it could be he learned them on his own, but it is also very plausible that this change was the influx of luta livre fighters into BTT."

I see what you are saying but I think its much more likely that it was just Palahares's personal style. I don't think his instructors were like "Hey, stop going for all those ankle locks and heelhooks and practice your ahm-bahs." and then LL guys start flocking to BTT and changed the environment. LL guys had been bouncing back and forth between BJJ and LL teams for a long time. Guys have certain body types, like certain moves,etc... Marcelo G. loves guillotines. The guillotine/front headlock-style chokes are popular with wrestlers. I don't think Marcelo adopted them because he finally rolled with wrestlers. I think he always did them because he has short, strong arms and is often in position to snag them so he developed that part of his game.

At the end of the day, if anyone knows of any interviews with Rousimar about his training, I'd be interested to read them. Tap may be right. 


9/25/11 2:10 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Tap21
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/18/03
Posts: 1799
^^^I think that's a pretty fair and balanced viewpoint.

It may be that Toquinho just taught himself his leglock game or that someone other than the BTT Luta Livre contingent taught him.
9/25/11 7:11 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
New2MMA
30 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/13/03
Posts: 4075

Holy shit @ the intensity of that fight.
9/26/11 1:37 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
nogidavid
83 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/13/06
Posts: 3777
i trained a long time with eraldo paes, he has some awesome leglocks
9/26/11 1:39 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
nogidavid
83 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/13/06
Posts: 3778
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90yhAW1UoRs

blue please
9/26/11 5:38 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Tap21
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/18/03
Posts: 1808
Eraldo Paes Set Upon at BTT
9/28/11 2:38 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
stillmatic
26 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 12/20/08
Posts: 3780
Andre Galvao was talking about it and he said it's his power that's the technique. Paul Harris is just ridiculously strong, combine that with excellent technique and you get destructive leg locks.

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.