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Anaconda No-Gi UnderGround >> Where did Rousimar Palhares Get His Leglocks?


9/28/11 9:59 AM
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Ryan Thatcher
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Come on! We all know Palhares got his leg lock game from Eddie Bravo and Steven Seagal.

They teach everybody everything.
9/29/11 9:05 AM
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CompanyBlue
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Daniel on the BJJ forum just went to his seminar. What Toquinho said will be very disappointing to Tap21.


*Dude's a beast with the gi too. Scary thought. The seminar was mostly gi based.

*When it comes to his leg- and footlock mastery, he is largely self taught. His first instructor showed him the basics. But he got good at them, because whenever he'd get too tired to pass guard, his opponent's feet were right there for the taking.

*I asked him if he had a luta livre background, and he gave me and intense look and said: "my friend. JIU JITSU!!!"

*There was a serious reason for his erratic behaviour at adcc. But they are personal and I will not discuss them on a forum.
9/30/11 12:17 AM
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Tap21
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This Tatame article is about Bustamante and Toquinho receiving their blackbelts in luta livre from Daniel D'Dane:

http://www.tatame.com.br/2010/11/23/Bustamante-e-Toquinho-graduados-na-Luta-Livre


I believe the pic in the article above shows Bustamante and Toquinho holding the luta livre black belt certificates previously described as needing to arrive in Rio in this GracieMag article:

http://www.graciemag.com/en/2010/11/murilo-bustamante-receives-yet-another-black-belt/


My guess is that Eraldo Paes and Daniel D'Dane would not give Toquinho a blackbelt in luta livre unless they had made sure to transmit all the luta livre leglock skills to him. Not saying that's the only source of his leglock skills, just saying that a luta livre black belt is likely to have learned luta livre leg lock skills.
9/30/11 5:08 AM
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CompanyBlue
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Almost any black belt in BJJ can walk into a Luta Livre gym in Brazil and get a black belt with minimal time spent there. I remember when Shaolin entered a Luta Livre tournament and smoked everybody, all without any training in LL = )

Your posts here always make me laugh, you are a real character. You have all these assumptions that you will hold onto until the end. What do you think Murilo had to practice before getting his black belt in LL? What part of the game do you think Murilo had to improve to get his belt? LOL. Ironic since he fought in the famous BJJ vs. LL challenge in 1991 alongside Wallid and Fabio Gurgel.

I've seen Luta Livre guys out there who had sucky ground, I've seen some with good stand up, some with bad stand up, some with good takedowns, and some with horrible takedowns. Do you think Rousimars leg locks sucked before this belt ceremony? The man spoke on this at his own seminar and still you won't believe or give credit. Keep posting please, more threads, you are great to read. Maybe create a blog?
9/30/11 5:27 AM
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CompanyBlue
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oh yeah, who do you have as your best ground guy from a Luta Livre backgroud? The Brazilians I've spoken to usually say Johil was the most technical and Eugenio was always mentioned. These LL trained guys are hard to find these days, even if you do, it's 2011 now, everybody trains with jiu-jitsu on mind.
9/30/11 12:20 PM
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Tap21
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I'm actually not a big luta livre aficionado.


I just think the strong luta livre influence at BTT these days is interesting. I remember when BTT had its first generation of stars in Pride. I never would have guessed then that one day there would be such a strong Luta Livre presence at this gym.

As far as Toquinho goes. I don't think the promotion itself to a luta livre black belt is the most significant thing here. But, I think the promotion belies how much luta livre he has been exposed to through Eraldo Paes and others. Just like Minotauro learning the anaconda choke from his exposure to Milton Viera.
9/30/11 12:28 PM
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Tap21
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CompanyBlue - Almost any black belt in BJJ can walk into a Luta Livre gym in Brazil and get a black belt with minimal time spent there.


Apparently, the opposite was also true since BTT gave all the young luta livre guys black belts after they showed up there.
9/30/11 12:42 PM
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Tap21
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Edited: 09/30/11 12:53 PM
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In the end, my ultimate point is that belts don't really mean that much. Submission wrestling is just that.....submission wrestling.

It doesn't matter if a person learned a particular technique from a no-gi only guy or a BJJ guy. When he does it in no-gi, he is doing a submission wrestling technique. Even though his personal style and that of anyone who taught him will influence his particular execution of the technique, it is still just a submission wrestling/no-gi technique.

Toquinho and Milton Viera both have BJJ and luta livre black belts. Toquinho did BJJ first then trained with luta livre guys. Milton Viera did luta livre first then trained with BJJ guys.

Bustamante decided the luta livre guys were on the same level as his BJJ black belts and Eraldo Paes and Daniel D'Dane decided the BJJ guys were on the same level as their luta livre guys.

It's all just no-gi/submission wrestling now. Their will always be styles and emphasis, but the belts and lineages aren't the distinguishing factor anymore.

The interesting thing about BTT is that they already know this and have completely integrated no-gi fighters into their gym and teaching staff.
9/30/11 3:00 PM
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MickColins
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they were doing No-Gi at the old Carlson gym back in the day. They did it out of pure necessity since most guys could only afford one gi and if it was really hot, they'd sweat them up. And rolling on a cold, wet Gi sucks. It didn't take an influx of LL to BTT for BTT to learn about NoGi. Phone Post
10/2/11 4:45 PM
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Tap21
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Yeah, I agree that BTT has always been awesome at no-gi!

I think part of the historical no-gi success of BTT (particularly in MMA) is due to their open mindedness. Early on, they hired a good wrestling coach (Darrel Gholar,) and were open to ideas from outside BJJ (e.g. taking in all the luta livre guys, Big Nog learning anaconda from Milton Viera, and etc).
10/3/11 12:27 AM
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Tap21
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Edited: 10/03/11 12:40 AM
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I think that's a perfectly reasonable post. I agree that people can develop a really high skill level in certain things independent of their instructor.

I would also guess that Rousimar Palhares has trained more with Eraldo Paes in his years at BTT than a normal person would in 7 months. Also, as a luta livre black belt under Paes, I would guess that Paes would have transmitted his knowledge of leglocks to Palhares.

Maybe he has...maybe he hasn't. Just throwing some ideas out there.
10/3/11 12:55 AM
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etownbjj1
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Bodycomb is hardly the golden standard for leg lock attacks. If fact, most he shows are just plain unsound.
10/3/11 1:06 AM
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Tap21
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etownbjj1 - Bodycomb is hardly the golden standard for leg lock attacks. If fact, most he shows are just plain unsound.



Interesting. I like his stuff and I've had good success with techniques that are very similar to some of his ideas in the advanced division at Grapplers Quest.


Who do think has a better teaching structure for leglocks? Just asking out of curiosity.
10/3/11 3:12 PM
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etownbjj1
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Joe Baize at Nice Guy Submission Fighting. Doesn't toot his own horn. He just goes and wins. I think as a team they have over 150 leg lock competition wins and our association of 5 schools is near 250. Joe was on a 48 match win streak (45 by submission) till Rodolfo beat him in ADCC a couple weeks ago. At high levels you don't see all that tangle leg tie in knot voodoo. That's great for videos but the fact of life is you better have great entries, sticky legs, and the physical strength to rip the leg in half. And we have found that physically weak people who have mechanically sound leg locks are not always able to manipulate or finish athletic, flexible and/or strong opponents. I'm a BJJ Black Belt and Judo Black Belt with over 15 years training. I base my assumptions on experience, not theory. You have lots of theories on here. But you need to prove some of them or they have no validity.
10/4/11 1:14 AM
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Tap21
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Edited: 10/04/11 2:36 AM
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Joe Baize is awesome at leg locks!!!! I was really excited to watch him compete at ADCC, I even wrote about it in a thread I made in this forum prior to ADCC.

I honestly think he did a great job against Rodolfo and surprised a lot of people.

But, I don't know of any widely available instructional he has put out. Has he? If he ever puts out any dvds on leglocks I will definitely want to see them. Who knows, maybe his instruction or that of someone else at Nice Guy Submission Fighting is better than that of Bodycomb. But, I won't know until I see it!

I also think that, as with most things in grappling, there are different approaches to leglocks and any two approaches could be equally valid. Even Bodycomb talks about there being times for what he calls "fast and scary" leglocks and the slower more complicated ones you describe above as "knot voodoo".

I won't claim to be on anywhere near the same level as any ADCC vet, including Joe Baize. But, since you implied I am working only off theory here, I will say that in my own comparitively humble grappling history, I've used techniques very similar to stuff taught by Bodycomb to tap BJJ brown and black belts in competition.

Again, this is nothing compared to the grappling wins of virtually any ADCC vet, but I am saying that techniques like the ones taught by Bodycomb have worked great in my actual competitive experience and not based just on theory as you implied.

But, really I don't even need to look to my own experience to see these types of techniques in action. In the pics below there are certain ADCC competitors from ADCC 2011 employing entangling leg positions similar to those advocated by Bodycomb.
10/4/11 1:26 AM
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Tap21
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 How about this....is this "all that tangle leg tie in knot voodoo"? It seems to be working at a high level here.  In my mind this is pretty similar to, and consistent with, some of the stuff that Bodycomb teaches.
10/4/11 2:10 AM
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Tap21
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Hall didn't finish this one.  But, he did win the fight and it looks like we are still seeing it at the highest level here. 

10/4/11 3:29 AM
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etownbjj1
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Well, I'm not gonna waste minutes of my life arguing with you. But none of those pics are showing anything complicated at all. reaping and a triangle? Bodycomb says you can't go low leg low and finish. Which is so misinformed it is boggling. His little over/under the far leg tie-up thing is a little bit over the horizon. But I really am no debating it. We are producing and I'm training with good and great leg lock guys daily. I know what works and what is fantasy. That's all I care about.
10/4/11 12:18 PM
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mmanthebay
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Tap21 - This Tatame article is about Bustamante and Toquinho receiving their blackbelts in luta livre from Daniel D'Dane:

http://www.tatame.com.br/2010/11/23/Bustamante-e-Toquinho-graduados-na-Luta-Livre


I believe the pic in the article above shows Bustamante and Toquinho holding the luta livre black belt certificates previously described as needing to arrive in Rio in this GracieMag article:

http://www.graciemag.com/en/2010/11/murilo-bustamante-receives-yet-another-black-belt/


My guess is that Eraldo Paes and Daniel D'Dane would not give Toquinho a blackbelt in luta livre unless they had made sure to transmit all the luta livre leglock skills to him. Not saying that's the only source of his leglock skills, just saying that a luta livre black belt is likely to have learned luta livre leg lock skills.
I've trained with some LL black belts under Marcio Cromado and didn't see anything aside from basic leg locks. There was a video of Carlson Jr training leg locks with some guys maybe LL or Sambo. Phone Post
10/4/11 5:32 PM
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sly fox
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 interesting thread..
10/5/11 5:44 AM
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demandango
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someone on the other forum asked paul harris about luta livre. he said no.

also, i know of bjj people who were doing the anaconda before mino did it in a match who simply discovered it on their own. it has nothing to do with luta livre.
10/5/11 9:56 PM
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Tap21
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^^^I'm sure someone was doing the anaconda back in the days of Greek Pankration. None of these moves are brand new.

But, if you google "inventor of the anaconda choke" you are going to see Milton Viera's name a million times on the first page of search results. Similar searches including Big Nog's name show all kinds of references to Milton Viera teaching it to Minotauro.

Milton Viera is a luta livre black belt and is widely credited as the "inventor of the anaconda choke". So, I would say it does have to do with luta livre.
10/8/11 12:01 PM
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Mighty Cthulhu
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Please, Reilly doesn't say you can't go low leg and finish, that's ridiculous. NY combat sambo guys attack the low leg all the time. They just view it as less preferable than the high leg.

As far as coming over the leg with the inside triangle, that's very effective, as shown by Dean Lister in that photo above. And Hall IS in the over/under far leg position in that pic, just not tight. Watch the match between Cobrinha and Rafa, you'll see inside and outside triangles left and right.

There are many different ways to finish leglocks. Anybody who says there is just one way ... c'mon.

Also, I have never noticed anything particularly complicated about Palhares' leglocks. They are just classic, generic leglocks executed with massive force, great speed, and solid technique.
10/8/11 1:05 PM
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DanteHec
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Guys freak when you wrap up there legs fast. Now if your a turtle ...then you'd say it never works. Phone Post
11/6/11 11:44 PM
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MIKE CIESNOLEVICZ
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ttt Phone Post

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