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TMA UnderGround >> What throws are contained within the Kata Bunkai?


9/26/11 2:56 PM
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Kido777
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I don't train Karate, but I've been told by a friend who teaches it about this Kata. He says they practice throws. Anyone know what throws are contained in this Kata?
9/26/11 5:27 PM
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cdueck
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Bunkai is not a kata, it is the practical application of the kata that you may be practicing. There are many things in kata that students are supposed to find through years of training. When the UFC burst onto the martial arts scene some karate instructors were claiming that there was ground fighting applications in there standing kata's
10/2/11 4:42 AM
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Kolsyrade
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As mentioned Bunkai is not a kata, it is a step in understanding traditional kata (and several formal techniques).
Bunkai literally translates to "to analyze", which says a lot about what bunkai is in the kata process.
Quite often Bunkai is also used as a term for the end result of the analyzis, which traditionally is referred to as Oyo (translating to "application").

There are plenty of bunkai/oyo explanations for moves in kata, as there are no set standard. Some are ridiculous, some are very effective. Some is overly formal (requiring ridiculously unrealistic setups), other are more streetfighting adapted. In the end it is just about set flowdrills and principles -you need to train it in realistic settings to get it to work properly.

As for throws, most traditional katas are laced with throw. Nothing revolutionary new, but most basic throws seen in grapping&throwing styles can be found in one kata or another.
A few examples from one of a basic beginner kata seen in many styles of karate -and some tkd schools (pinan/heian 5)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_qwz1llYZk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-sg3g9D4hU
Nothing that you would not learn better in a Judo class, but that is not the point here.
10/2/11 4:31 PM
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Missing Glove Tape
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^Is that dude even speaking English? Holy shit! lol


Don't know what's hidden and what's not, but shotokan has the 'kuzushi waza' throw that I think is cool. It'd be considered a variation of tani otoshi in judo, but even so I like the shotokan version better(since ideally don't follow your opponent to the ground).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v38XQJgK7W0
10/2/11 5:53 PM
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de braco
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 ^We need your knowledge to enlighten us. PS, He's forgotten more than your pompous ass will ever know
10/2/11 6:06 PM
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What, so I can't laugh at someone with a harsh accent? GTFO!!
10/2/11 6:13 PM
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de braco
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 6320 posts since 4/12/10? Maybe you should listen more and try to seperate the wheat from the chaff before chiming in with BS opinions.
10/2/11 6:26 PM
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And perhaps you lack the experience and courage of your convictions to post more than you have since joining, therefore you harp on silly shit like cracking on a dude's accent. Again, GTFO!!
10/2/11 6:29 PM
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de braco
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 That being said, I've always considered most bunkai explanations to be BS
10/2/11 6:34 PM
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de braco
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Missing Glove Tape - And perhaps you lack the experience and courage of your convictions to post more than you have since joining, therefore you harp on silly shit like cracking on a dude's accent. Again, GTFO!!

 You are the reason tenners have a bad reputation.Educate yourself on a subject before running your mouth
10/2/11 6:43 PM
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de braco - 
Missing Glove Tape - And perhaps you lack the experience and courage of your convictions to post more than you have since joining, therefore you harp on silly shit like cracking on a dude's accent. Again, GTFO!!

 You are the reason tenners have a bad reputation.Educate yourself on a subject before running your mouth

LOL. As if that means anything you silly man.


Nevertheless, I've always appreciated the 'applications' aspect of bunkai in that it gave context to techniques that were/may have been arranged in non-complimentary ways. But I never bought the 'hidden' claims as far as 'finding' techniques is concerned, because it just seems illogical not to teach things upfront and in the open to students.

I mean, even when concealing things from *others* ala capoeira being portrayed as a dance, you'd still want practitioners to be able to know what was what, right?
10/2/11 6:51 PM
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de braco
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 You sure showed me.
10/2/11 6:54 PM
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de braco -  You sure showed me.

That you harped on silliness you needn't have? I agree.

But if you'd like to offer something constructive to the conversation, by all means do.
10/2/11 6:57 PM
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de braco
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 I only seek enlightenment, from your vast store of knowledge
10/2/11 7:02 PM
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de braco -  I only seek enlightenment, from your vast store of knowledge

Well, you done fucked that up already re: your silly harping about a crack on a harsh-to-understand accent. So you're options are two fold; either contribute something to the conversation or dwell/reflect on the level of estrogen-producing food in your diet.
10/2/11 7:08 PM
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de braco
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 I find your theories interesting and wish to suscribe to your newsletter
10/2/11 9:05 PM
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cdueck
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I don't believe the bunkai was not taught as much as it was expected that you would practice and explore the kata in your training.  
10/11/11 5:28 PM
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Kido777
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After some brief research I've found that Osoto-gari, Ippon-seoi-nage, and Tomae-nage appear to be contained within this set of Kata.

I'll be participating in a Point Fighting Tournament towards the end of the month, throws and take downs are legal. I'll be competing against a group of guys who have studied the Kata Bunkai.

I've studied Jiu-jitsu (actually Judo), Aikido, Boxing, and currently Hapkido. I have a lot of experience with Throwing and being Thrown. I'm not too crazy about the fact that throws will be allowed because my natural inclination will be to counter. Oftentimes, the counter can be worse than the throw itself. For example, Karateka attempts Osoto-gari and gets countered with Yoko-otoshi or some other sacrafice throw.

Somehow I don't see this ending well. I'm trying to figure out what they know so I can counter it with something less severe.
10/11/11 5:45 PM
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cdueck
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 Some styles of Karate really work there throws and trips so be cautious. You can study kata all you want but if you don't train the applications they will be no good for you. What style of Karate is this kata from?
10/11/11 7:52 PM
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Kido777
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cdueck -  Some styles of Karate really work there throws and trips so be cautious. You can study kata all you want but if you don't train the applications they will be no good for you. What style of Karate is this kata from?


Shotokan Karate.
10/12/11 7:47 AM
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cdueck
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A good traditional Shotokan school will really practice throws and take downs as they are a good part of the training. As for countering the throws, I think that will be pretty difficult as the throws will be set up with strikes first. Watch some of Lyoto Machidas fights and see how he moves and how he does takedowns. 
10/12/11 12:14 PM
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Kido777
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cdueck - A good traditional Shotokan school will really practice throws and take downs as they are a good part of the training. As for countering the throws, I think that will be pretty difficult as the throws will be set up with strikes first. Watch some of Lyoto Machidas fights and see how he moves and how he does takedowns. 


All throws are set up with strikes. That doesn't mean you can't counter them since counters are instinctive due to muscle memory. I will watch some of this Machidas.

Most throws that I've seen performed by Shotokan practitioners are badly done. They will be moving in to perform Osoto-gari without taking their opponents balance first. I've actually countered these types of throws before with another Osoto-gari.
10/14/11 4:35 AM
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Kolsyrade
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pretty good bunkai clip from Iain Abernethy for the first movement (ok, second step, not first) in the simplest beginner kata available -Taikyoku 1.
Showing a simple throw, and also a example of bad bunkai (as it is taught all too often in most schools for this particular move) and why it is ridiculous bad.
Also a intro to the function of stances.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dDIJN7647s
10/14/11 2:04 PM
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Kido777
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Kolsyrade - pretty good bunkai clip from Iain Abernethy for the first movement (ok, second step, not first) in the simplest beginner kata available -Taikyoku 1.
Showing a simple throw, and also a example of bad bunkai (as it is taught all too often in most schools for this particular move) and why it is ridiculous bad.
Also a intro to the function of stances.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dDIJN7647s


I've watched some of these. In the one where he demonstrates Osoto-gari he is off balance and could easily be countered with another Osoto-gari.
10/14/11 2:33 PM
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cdueck
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 I think you will likely see alot of  de ashi barai(I think that is the one I want). There will likely be alot sweeps off the front leg both to start the combination and to finish as well.

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