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TMA UnderGround >> What throws are contained within the Kata Bunkai?


10/14/11 4:16 PM
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Sajite
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no throws

karate is a striking art
if you can throw someone you can hit him....
10/20/11 4:50 AM
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Kolsyrade
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The only reason karate is regarded as striking only is that the grappling was phased out when karate was imported into mainland Japan (where it coexisted with Judo, which phased out its striking at roughly the same time, and because Throwing didnt give point for a long time in the main karate tournament competition format (which is no longer true, as a throw with followup now score the highest point possible -although the current rules only allow "safe" throws -witout specifying wht a "safe" throw is).

That karate once included primitive grappling and always has included a lot of throws is not a matter of debate. It is fact.

“The karate that has been introduced to Tokyo is actually just a part of the whole. The fact that those who have learnt karate there feel it only consists of kicks & punches, and that throws & locks are only to be found in judo or jujutsu, can only be put down to a lack of understanding … Those who are thinking of the future of karate should have an open mind and strive to study the complete art” – Kenwa Mabuni 1938
10/22/11 7:51 AM
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Sajite
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KyokushinCatch - ^ sorry Sajite, but wrong

very, very wrong



regarding the practical aspects of it NO KARATEKA has a clue about throwing someone...
you can do your bunkai doing armbars or triangles in the ground (I've seen people doing those in some heian godan bunkai) but practically speakin means nothing. I trained shotokan and judo for many years and no one I trained karate with could use a throw in free practice. I've found very proficient people at sweeps... wathc Valera here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2VrVUpybIo (blue, please) but you can bet your life they have not learned their skill through kata)


After 14 years of shotokan practice I had to train this stuff for getting the idea of what bunkai is and why kata is so important

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzpS5E7C8CQ (blue?)

10/22/11 5:29 PM
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Sajite
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That's the perfect example of what I meant

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmM8U9s0fZQ
10/29/11 9:51 PM
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Kolsyrade
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Edited: 10/29/11 10:20 PM
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KyokushinCatch -
perhaps the Shotokan that Sajite learned did not emphasize the throws that should be found in this style, but certainly not all Karate or Karateka are lacking in skillful nagewaza

 Showing once again that there is nothing that can be said about art of karate that is true about ALL karate. The different styles can be extremely different, and even different dojos teaching the same style may focus on different aspects of the art&style.

"Karate" is simply too big a term to give many generic truths about it.

For Sajite who dont think Shotokan karate has throws. Here is an old documentary about JKA (main shotokan organization) showing a few examples.
Im not saying they are the most realistic, but they are clearly throws.

 
10/30/11 9:13 AM
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Sajite
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For Sajite who dont think Shotokan karate has throws. Here is an old documentary about JKA (main shotokan organization) showing a few examples.
Im not saying they are the most realistic, but they are clearly throws.


please, let's be serious

I'm not saying "they don't have" I'm saying they're not trained and that karatekas that have a clue about thows is because they have practice judo or JJ.... It's the same about atemi in judo... there's atemis in judo but no judoka can make atemi work by means of his judo training....
10/30/11 9:45 AM
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Kolsyrade
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Edited: 10/30/11 9:48 AM
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 well, what you said was

1. "no throws. karate is a striking art"

2. "regarding the practical aspects of it NO KARATEKA has a clue about throwing someone..."

Re:1 already disproven above.

Re:2
Shidokan knockdown karate (throws scattered allthrough the vid)


Even the point karate guys are starting to do throws after the rules have been clarified a few years ago (0.40min).


And ofcourse the line between throws and sweeps is pretty fussy sometimes (this btw is a former Japanese national world karate kumite champ and national team coach)


Sure Judoka are much better at throws. No surprise there. But karate-ka who are allowed to throw during competitions are not too bad either.

But yeah, if you never trained throwing, never used throws live (maybe they are neglected due to competition rules ban)and never have learned it properly, you are not going to get much use out of doing a few Kata and have the throws pointed out.
But they are still there. 
10/30/11 8:23 PM
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Sajite
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Sorry, I thought the point was that there were throws in karate KATA...

No way no one could teach you a throw form kata...

And the point is that there's no efective throwing in kata. Karate was conceived as an striking art and is you can get close enough to throw someone you can strike him. In kata bunkai the last thing you got to look for is a throw. And you got to be carefull about what you do with your bunkai cause you can end up doing thing like the guys doing those ridiculous armbars as heiangodan bunkai....

I remember reading an essay by Mabuni where he recomends to people interested in self-defense to learn some "tegumi" (Grappling) art like judo or wrestling. He doesn't recommend go deeply in any given kata but to search outside the art. To me that was something revealing.

Modern styles like shidokan, sport karate or kudo are strongly influenced by MMA or other disciplines; and the new rules of WUKO were set to make the sport visually attractive so they started giving more credit to throws and sweeps cause visually you don't need to be an expert to know who scored...


BTW I've trained judo for many years and I have use throws, sweeps and ground game wiht my fellow karatekas. I've swept some guys and I'be been swept several times.... but to me that's not traditional curriculum included in kata.

11/1/11 8:12 AM
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Kolsyrade
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Edited: 11/01/11 8:38 AM
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OK, so riddle me this.
I started out in kyokushin, and then started a Judo+aikido based jujutsu (separate dojos) because I had time over and classes was held separate days. Then In karate I learned seoi nage (as a unnamed throw), and was show it as a bunkai in kata. First we trained it and then I was told "and here it is in the kata". We rushed through it and didnt do a lot of it, and most of my fellow student forgot about is since it was not allowed in sparring. Then later I got to the same throw in jujutsu and drilled it until I got it down.
Later I looked up old kyokushin books ("Advanced karate", from the 60ies) where the founder of the style showed the throw, naming it seoi nage and showing it as a bunkai for a move in kata Kanku.

Now, I freely accept that without the jujutsu training I would not have become very good at it.
I freely admit that my fellow kyokushin students later could not do a decent soei nage.
I freely admit that kata is a crappy tool to teach throws (and most other things).
But I did learn the throw in karate, as a bunkai for a move in kata, and it is demonstrably a bunkai that the founder of my style knew and taught.
So how can I say it is not taught in karate or that it is not in kata?
How can i say I did not learn it in karate as part of karate? I can say I didn't learn it very WELL in karate, but that is as far as i can go.

Just because it is neglected and not taught often or well, does not mean that it is not there. And if it is there, all that is needed to get it better is to train it more often

But sure, the judo guys do it much better. No argument there. They do it all the time, and it would be pathetic if they were not better at it than karate guys who have only done it occasionally, as a obscure technique training.

How can I say there is no throws in karate when Gichin Funakoshi said back in 1935 "hitting, thrusting, and kicking are not the only methods; throwing techniques, (nagewaza) and pressure against joints are also included." (and also gave examples in his books from 1922 and 1925)
How can you say karate is only striking when the founder of the style you once trained, claimed differently?
11/3/11 7:07 PM
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Kido777
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cdueck - A good traditional Shotokan school will really practice throws and take downs as they are a good part of the training. As for countering the throws, I think that will be pretty difficult as the throws will be set up with strikes first. Watch some of Lyoto Machidas fights and see how he moves and how he does takedowns. 


Thanks for the recommendation! Some very interesting use of the Leg Sweep with Machidas. Similar to what is seen in the videos posted by Kolsyrade and Sajite.

11/3/11 9:19 PM
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cdueck
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If five people watch a kata there will likely be five different sets of bunkai that come from them. When I first realized this I was watching and learning a kata and all I saw were throws throughout the whole kata. When my Shihan went over the bunkai there was not one throw mentioned. As mentioned before kata was to be an exploration of the style to learn from it what was there, once you did this you were supposed to pull it out and train it. I believe that the Karate we see today for the most part is not the same as it was 30+ years ago.  
11/5/11 4:15 PM
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Kido777
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Thanks for all the advice guys!

I placed second in the Tournament today, it was my first time. Turns out, I was the only one in the Tournament to use a take down. I used one against a guy who tried to kick me in the head. Some call it a Scoop Against the Kick.
11/5/11 5:28 PM
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cdueck
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Nice work! 
11/7/11 2:41 PM
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jrrrrr
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nice thread
11/16/11 3:25 PM
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e. kaye
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There are tons of throws and ju jitsu in Shotokan kata.  They just do not teach it.

Almost every turn is a throw.

I did not discover how prevelant it was until I stopped Shotokan and took up Ju Jitsu (Zujitsu to be exact).

Then all of a sudden a lot of unexplained bunkai revealed itself to me.
12/12/11 9:57 AM
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John Frankl
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"there are a number of throws, as well as standing joint-locks, hidden in kata"

Yes, but they are hidden so deep that no one can find them:)
12/12/11 10:48 AM
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e. kaye
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 Some are more obvious that others.   

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