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HolyGround >> Serious question (born agains)...


9/26/11 9:09 PM
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JesusTapped
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I'm late to the story, but is anyone here on the HG aware of this "3 guys 1 hammer" travesty? Three college kids in the Ukraine went on a murder spree a few years ago, beating people to death with a hammer and filming their grizzly deeds. I just heard about the story today and can't get it out of my head....

Of the course these horrifically graphic videos have been leaked to the Internet. I WILL NOT WATCH IT nor should you, but I watched a bit of a documentary of the story on YouTube and couldn't get more than two minutes into that...as they spliced in actual clips from the video the creeps made.

For sheer recreation these kids walked up to complete strangers and literally began beating them to death while filming it all. They laugh as these poor human beings are agonizing in absolutely soul shattering pain. From descriptions, they gouged a homeless man's eye out with a screw driver while he was still fully conscious and very much alive...

We have to agree that these scum bags are going to hell, if there is one. There can't be any saving for these punks, right? There IS an uncrossable line, no???

Google the story BEFORE you respond unless you're familiar with it already. And out if respect for the lives of those precious human creators who were slain, DO NOT WATCH THE VIDEO if you stumble across it. Phone Post
9/27/11 7:51 AM
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JesusTapped
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Christians refuse to say "I don't know". They prefer, instead to say, "God will light the way" which is as empty an assertion ad one will find.

If truth requires empirical analysis, we should all say "I don't know" when asked if there is a God.

I wonder if the victims of these tragic homicides prayed while being tortured slowly? I wonder is they prayed for assistance or a quick death - either way, Jesus must have been on the other line because they got neither. Is that fair? Of a loving God, no less?

This story proves, I thousands of years of recorded history weren't enough, that "god", if it exists, takes no interest in the affairs if man.

We are as alone as those victims. Convince yourself otherwise if you wish. Chaz Bono convinced herself she was a man, so I can appreciate delusion... Phone Post
9/27/11 10:53 PM
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Ridgeback
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 Wow that is deep.  You should call your argument the "problem of evil" or something like that.
9/27/11 10:54 PM
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Ridgeback
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 It is Ukraine btw, not "the Ukraine," which is like saying "the England."
9/28/11 3:38 PM
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Lahi
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By truth requiring empirical analysis, do you mean it must be subject to the scientific method of testing and study? If so, you have to throw out history in general (beyond the relatively recent for sure, but probably even much of that), and most value judgments in things like art and morality, just for starters.

9/28/11 3:47 PM
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Lahi
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The question seems to me to be not whether God is absent, but if any of the religious accounts of him are true. In the Christian understanding, you have something of a mix: times when God is very real and involved in our world (I would say that is the case much more often than some Christians, or our critics, often allow), and then other times where God does seem to have abandoned us.

We can see this paradox in the accounts of Jesus's life, so it is nothing new to the Christian faith. I don't find the fact that suffering exists that is unexplainable to me right now, or the fact that sometimes I have found myself one of the sufferers, enough to cause me to reject God for a number of reasons. If a person sees no evidence for a god existing, or cannot accept the possibility of a good creator existing along with the suffering of the world, then of course they have to be honest about where the evidence leads them.
9/28/11 3:53 PM
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Lahi
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JesusTapped - Christians refuse to say "I don't know". They prefer, instead to say, "God will light the way" which is as empty an assertion ad one will find.<br><br>


A very broad generalization that I don't think reflects the teachings of the NT, or the Jewish Scriptures either. Of course we are taught to rely on God, but I don't see any denial of the fact that as his followers we will often face things we simply don't understand right now (this seems to be a constant theme of scripture).
9/28/11 4:01 PM
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Lahi
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Also, I think that where some of us might say "God has abandoned me," the early church and saints find Him very real and present even in the pain and suffering. Maybe not always, but more than we often think IMO. Whether or not they claimed to understand why it was happening is another matter, but they were convinced that God was very much present with them in their pain.
9/28/11 6:20 PM
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JesusTapped
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Ridgeback -  Wow that is deep.  You should call your argument the "problem of evil" or something like that.
Didn't meet this self-important person's intellectual prerequisites...again. Oh what shall I do?

Thanks for your contribution! Surprised you had the time amidst your pursuit of your third doctorate. Phone Post
9/28/11 8:54 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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""" There can't be any saving for these punks, right? There IS an uncrossable line, no???"""

My heart cringes at the thought of such arrogant, destructive behavior. But my heart knows it is not the way things are supposed to be.

In the eyes of God we are all THESE PERSONS from birth.

All of our voices were in the crowd yelling "Crucify" before Pilate.

It MAY BE that they will never come to repentance. It may be that only one of them does. BUT we are all born guilty of this type of corruption. Thanks God that he chooses and saves any of us.

You've heard "Why do bad things happen to GOOD PEOPLE? They dont! There are no GOOD PEOPLE.

BUT, there is a difference between a NORMAL SINNER, a FOOL and a TRULY EVIL person.

I go into that here:

http://whatwoulddemido.blogspot.com/
9/28/11 9:23 PM
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JesusTapped
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Demitrius Barbito - """ There can't be any saving for these punks, right? There IS an uncrossable line, no???"""

My heart cringes at the thought of such arrogant, destructive behavior. But my heart knows it is not the way things are supposed to be.

In the eyes of God we are all THESE PERSONS from birth.

All of our voices were in the crowd yelling "Crucify" before Pilate.

It MAY BE that they will never come to repentance. It may be that only one of them does. BUT we are all born guilty of this type of corruption. Thanks God that he chooses and saves any of us.

You've heard "Why do bad things happen to GOOD PEOPLE? They dont! There are no GOOD PEOPLE.

BUT, there is a difference between a NORMAL SINNER, a FOOL and a TRULY EVIL person.

I go into that here:

http://whatwoulddemido.blogspot.com/
Thanks for responded to my question rather than flaming me...

But I can't accept your claim (or your God's for that matter) that there are no good people. I fundamentally disagree with that notion. Those two creeps are a breed apart, IMO. We aren't the same.

I don't see "sin" as a blanket concept. Some are much more grave than others (no pun intended). I struggle with many aspects of all religions, but Christianity really puzzles me with this notion of being saved, apparently even after slowly and brutally torturing random humans with hand tools while video taping.

I mean, even if these guys REALLY meant it, fell on their knees and TRULY accepted Christ, what, all is forgiven? Just like that? Does that mean those families get their loved ones back, too. Sin, once done, can't be undone.

But I applaud your faith and conviction. Unlike many I've encountered here on the HG, you don't attempt to intellectualize your faith. You tell it like it is, as it's preached in your faith, warts and all. I can respect that, even if I disagree. Phone Post
9/28/11 10:41 PM
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gord96
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Edited: 09/29/11 8:57 AM
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Demitrius Barbito - """ There can't be any saving for these punks, right? There IS an uncrossable line, no???"""



My heart cringes at the thought of such arrogant, destructive behavior. But my heart knows it is not the way things are supposed to be.



In the eyes of God we are all THESE PERSONS from birth.



All of our voices were in the crowd yelling "Crucify" before Pilate.



It MAY BE that they will never come to repentance. It may be that only one of them does. BUT we are all born guilty of this type of corruption. Thanks God that he chooses and saves any of us.



You've heard "Why do bad things happen to GOOD PEOPLE? They dont! There are no GOOD PEOPLE.



BUT, there is a difference between a NORMAL SINNER, a FOOL and a TRULY EVIL person.



I go into that here:



http://whatwoulddemido.blogspot.com/



Good post dude. Spot on. Couldn't have said it better myself!Phone Post
9/29/11 3:41 AM
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DyingBreed
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"the early church and saints find Him very real and present"


that is because they had experienced the baptism of fire that Jesus had spoken of. seems like a lot of churches are ignoring the third person of the "trinity" as being the comforter he was sent to be.
9/29/11 4:05 AM
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DyingBreed
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"Thanks for responded to my question rather than flaming me...

But I can't accept your claim (or your God's for that matter) that there are no good people. I fundamentally disagree with that notion. Those two creeps are a breed apart, IMO. We aren't the same.

I don't see "sin" as a blanket concept. Some are much more grave than others (no pun intended). I struggle with many aspects of all religions, but Christianity really puzzles me with this notion of being saved, apparently even after slowly and brutally torturing random humans with hand tools while video taping.

I mean, even if these guys REALLY meant it, fell on their knees and TRULY accepted Christ, what, all is forgiven? Just like that? Does that mean those families get their loved ones back, too. Sin, once done, can't be undone.

But I applaud your faith and conviction. Unlike many I've encountered here on the HG, you don't attempt to intellectualize your faith. You tell it like it is, as it's preached in your faith, warts and all. I can respect that, even if I disagree."


and i applaud this post! thank you for posting your opinion without insulting or trying to make others feel stupid. i agree with how silly it seems to intellectualize christianity. i have never really felt the need to get deep into apologetics. i have found much of Christian apologetics flawed in the areas they attempt to defend because there is always the next angle to present, and its usually a circle that never ends. i havent seen really one "end all" sentence in any of it. but that i guess is because i used to be on the other side of it as well and would argue with Jesus freaks for fun and/or to try to hurt them.


we cannot explain intellectually what can only be spiritually discerned.
9/29/11 8:51 AM
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gord96
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Edited: 09/29/11 8:53 AM
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DyingBreed - "the early church and saints find Him very real and present"


that is because they had experienced the baptism of fire that Jesus had spoken of. seems like a lot of churches are ignoring the third person of the "trinity" as being the comforter he was sent to be.


i think it is more that they relied upon God more. the early church fathers were under constant persecution. they needed to rely on the Spirit to get through those difficulties.

Church's don't really ignore it today, it's more that in today's western culture of 'comfort', people don't really need to rely on the 'comforter' as much.
9/29/11 12:45 PM
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Lahi
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JesusTapped - I'm late to the story, but is anyone here on the HG aware of this "3 guys 1 hammer" travesty? Three college kids in the Ukraine went on a murder spree a few years ago, beating people to death with a hammer and filming their grizzly deeds. I just heard about the story today and can't get it out of my head....<br><br>Of the course these horrifically graphic videos have been leaked to the Internet. I WILL NOT WATCH IT nor should you, but I watched a bit of a documentary of the story on YouTube and couldn't get more than two minutes into that...as they spliced in actual clips from the video the creeps made.<br><br>For sheer recreation these kids walked up to complete strangers and literally began beating them to death while filming it all. They laugh as these poor human beings are agonizing in absolutely soul shattering pain. From descriptions, they gouged a homeless man's eye out with a screw driver while he was still fully conscious and very much alive...<br><br>We have to agree that these scum bags are going to hell, if there is one. There can't be any saving for these punks, right? There IS an uncrossable line, no???<br><br>Google the story BEFORE you respond unless you're familiar with it already. And out if respect for the lives of those precious human creators who were slain, DO NOT WATCH THE VIDEO if you stumble across it. <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>


I won't watch the video either. I could barely get through just reading that story, just some terrible sick shit.

I think there is an uncrossable line, I hope I am wrong but I am not quite a Univeralist. But I don't think its for me to say whether or not these guys have crossed it.
9/29/11 12:49 PM
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Lahi
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I believe the possibility for redemption reaches very deep, to almost everyone who will sincerely search for it. As terrible as what these guys have done is, I see a lot of terrible things going on in our society, many that are state sanctioned and accepted (or sometimes embraced) by many of us. I don't say that lightly either, there is a lot of heinous stuff out there that a lot of people have been a party too.
9/29/11 5:32 PM
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JesusTapped
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Lahi -
JesusTapped - I'm late to the story, but is anyone here on the HG aware of this "3 guys 1 hammer" travesty? Three college kids in the Ukraine went on a murder spree a few years ago, beating people to death with a hammer and filming their grizzly deeds. I just heard about the story today and can't get it out of my head....<br><br>Of the course these horrifically graphic videos have been leaked to the Internet. I WILL NOT WATCH IT nor should you, but I watched a bit of a documentary of the story on YouTube and couldn't get more than two minutes into that...as they spliced in actual clips from the video the creeps made.<br><br>For sheer recreation these kids walked up to complete strangers and literally began beating them to death while filming it all. They laugh as these poor human beings are agonizing in absolutely soul shattering pain. From descriptions, they gouged a homeless man's eye out with a screw driver while he was still fully conscious and very much alive...<br><br>We have to agree that these scum bags are going to hell, if there is one. There can't be any saving for these punks, right? There IS an uncrossable line, no???<br><br>Google the story BEFORE you respond unless you're familiar with it already. And out if respect for the lives of those precious human creators who were slain, DO NOT WATCH THE VIDEO if you stumble across it. <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>


I won't watch the video either. I could barely get through just reading that story, just some terrible sick shit.

I think there is an uncrossable line, I hope I am wrong but I am not quite a Univeralist. But I don't think its for me to say whether or not these guys have crossed it.
Well we agree that line exists, then. And thanks for your on topic response. Phone Post
9/29/11 7:33 PM
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Lahi
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Throw out the afterlife, what do you think about redemption in this one? Do these guys have a chance, or are they beyond hope?
9/29/11 9:47 PM
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JesusTapped
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Lahi - Throw out the afterlife, what do you think about redemption in this one? Do these guys have a chance, or are they beyond hope?
I look at it this way...what amount of good deeds could these guys do over the course of the rest of their lives to overshadow those deplorable deeds? Those acts of evil, placed on a scale, outweigh lifetimes of good deeds.

Imagine the purest life lived, say the life of Christ. Now add, "oh, by the way, he brutally tortured random strangers to death and taped it.." to that story and feeding 5000 falls pretty short. Phone Post
9/29/11 10:50 PM
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Ridgeback
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JesusTapped - 
Ridgeback -  Wow that is deep.  You should call your argument the "problem of evil" or something like that.
Didn't meet this self-important person's intellectual prerequisites...again. Oh what shall I do?

Thanks for your contribution! Surprised you had the time amidst your pursuit of your third doctorate. Phone Post

 It is basic honesty to not pretend like you invented some idea.  You don't have to have a doctorate to be intellectually honest.  
9/30/11 5:52 AM
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JesusTapped
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^ Ridgeback, feel free to comment on the actual context of the opening post rather than just looking to poke holes in the poster. We all give in to your intellectual superiority. Satisfied now?

And I never offered any of my ideas as if I were the first to ever ponder them. Mans been around for a while and I realize I'm not the first to pose these questions. I also realize I'm posting on an Internet forum, not wiring a term paper. All I've offered were my opinions. In a world that's existed for millions of years, I'm quite aware I'm not the author of several of them....many a wise man existed before you and I. Not trying to steal anyone's intellectual property.

Ridgeback, you are the most intelligent, articulate, accurate and informed poster on the HG.

Now kindly get off my back...

...or, simply contribute to the discussion that's actually taking once here. Phone Post
10/3/11 8:56 AM
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Grakman
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May I suggest that you read some of the posts on the forum before asking the same questions that have already been thoroughly discussed on other threads? In particular, I suggest the debate between The Stewed Owl and Prof on the Argument from Religious Confusion (Christianity), or AFRC(c).

There are also threads debating the question of the existence of evil, the nature of God , etc, where you night find Ridgeback's and other's opinions already articulately expressed. Phone Post
10/4/11 5:40 PM
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JesusTapped
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Grakman - May I suggest that you read some of the posts on the forum before asking the same questions that have already been thoroughly discussed on other threads? In particular, I suggest the debate between The Stewed Owl and Prof on the Argument from Religious Confusion (Christianity), or AFRC(c).

There are also threads debating the question of the existence of evil, the nature of God , etc, where you night find Ridgeback's and other's opinions already articulately expressed. Phone Post
You're right. Besides, why create threads at all on the HG. I mean, lots of new and exciting ones are popping up each day....

...wait a minute. Phone Post
10/7/11 11:28 AM
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zealot66
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Grakman -  May I suggest that you read some of the posts on the forum before asking the same questions that have already been thoroughly discussed on other threads? In particular, I suggest the debate between The Stewed Owl and Prof on the Argument from Religious Confusion (Christianity), or AFRC(c).

There are also threads debating the question of the existence of evil, the nature of God , etc, where you night find Ridgeback's and other's opinions already articulately expressed. Phone Post

 Sorry, JT, 10 years ago called and you werent home. Unless you come up with something original, we've been down these roads to the point of exhaustion.

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