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Anaconda No-Gi UnderGround >> Failure of Romulo Barral and Rodolfo Viera at ADCC


9/26/11 10:40 PM
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Tap21
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There was a huge amount of hype surrounding heralded young gi players Romulo Barral and Rodolfo Viera prior to the event. Those two names were on MANY lists of predicted medalists.

But, Romulo lost in the first round to Kyle Griffin (Tyson Griffin's brother) and Rodolfo got heelhooked by Dean lister.

Romulo also failed to medal in his previous two ADCC appearances (in the 2009 +99kg and the 2007 -88kg).

Meanwhile 2 out of 5 weight class gold medals were taken by Dean Lister (who left the gi prior to his ADCC 2003 Absolute gold) and Vinny Magalhaes (who associates with 10th Planet and has posted here multiple times about how little he has trained himself in the gi in the last five years).

Is this failure of heralded young gi players at ADCC the beginning of a disconnect between success in IBJJF gi and "limited rules" no-gi (no reaping, no heelhooks) events and the full rules no-gi events like ADCC, Grapplers Quest, and NAGA?
9/27/11 4:05 AM
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flowwiththego
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Didnt rodolpho lose to the champ? He should retire, at 21. He won worlds and the open class at worlds, plus the pan and many more, i think Abu dhabi pro also Phone Post
9/27/11 2:30 PM
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Rival School
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Just off the top of my head...

Mario Sperry Gi
Braulio Estima Gi


Andre Galvao Gi
Rafael Mendes Gi
Marcelo Garcia Gi
Kron Gracie Gi 3rd
Jeff Glover Gi 3rd
Xandre Gi 3rd
Kyra Gracie Gi

If anything the strictly no gi guys are totally outnumbered i dont understand the logic here.
9/27/11 2:35 PM
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Rival School
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Also I suppose by your logic that Ryan Hall and Yoshida but suck because they went out early. Just because they lost at ADCC doesn't mean there is some swing. Straight no gi guys are the minority by far. Phone Post
9/27/11 5:28 PM
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joshjitsu
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So basically you using Vinny and Lister as examples. Two guys who wore the gi all the way till blackbelt.
9/27/11 8:38 PM
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Tap21
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Rival School - Just off the top of my head...

Mario Sperry Gi
Braulio Estima Gi


Andre Galvao Gi
Rafael Mendes Gi
Marcelo Garcia Gi
Kron Gracie Gi 3rd
Jeff Glover Gi 3rd
Xandre Gi 3rd
Kyra Gracie Gi

If anything the strictly no gi guys are totally outnumbered i dont understand the logic here.



The strictly no-gi guys are disproportionately successful because there are so few of them and they do so well.
9/27/11 8:39 PM
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Tap21
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joshjitsu - So basically you using Vinny and Lister as examples. Two guys who wore the gi all the way till blackbelt.



Lister left the gi and won the ADCC 2003 Absolute before he was ever a blackbelt.
9/27/11 8:45 PM
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Tap21
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Really I am pointing out the difference in mentality between guys like Lister (no-gi since before ADCC 2003) and Vinny (has trained himself in gi very rarely in last five years, and guys like Romulo Barral.

Romulo told tatame that, "I took the gi off and I had some time to train. I've never taken the gi off, and now I've spent 10 weeks training with no gi..."

(http://www.tatame.com/2011/09/16/Ready-for-ADCC-BJJ-champ-Barral-%91thinking-about-MMA-again)

Lister and Vinny have been doing no-gi for years upon years. Romulo thought 10 weeks would be enough?!? I think maybe the IBJJF events (and their lack of full rules) gave him a false confidence about how much his gi skills would cross over in a full rules grappling environment.
9/27/11 8:46 PM
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Tap21
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Rival School - Also I suppose by your logic that Ryan Hall and Yoshida but suck because they went out early. Just because they lost at ADCC doesn't mean there is some swing. Straight no gi guys are the minority by far. Phone Post



Some percentage of gi and no-gi guys are going to go out early. It's just the nature of the beast. But, a disproportionate percentage of very small number of no-gi guys seem to advance every year.
9/28/11 5:42 AM
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Shemhazai
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You have such a chip on your shoulder.

Barral lost to Kyle Griffin, a wrestler who played a very conservative game and won on takedown points. As far as Griffin's submission grappling goes, I don't know if he also trains in the gi. Also, both Barral and Rodolfo are known to be much weaker no gi players than gi players, relying heavily on gi grips for key techniques in their arsenals, so it comes as no surprise to anyone that they would perform less spectacularly in ADCC than in the Mundials. Regarding Lister and Magalhaes, both earned their black belts in the gi, so to use them as examples of the benefits of pure no gi training is pointless. I don't care how rarely they don the gi these days; fact is that they honed their skills wearing the gi, which is the key argument made by gi advocates anyway.

By the way, you fail to mention the fact that two of the most prominent 'gi-less' practitioners at ADCC this year, Jason Manly and Enrico Cocco, were handily beaten in their first matches by gi guys. Or the fact that the only other truly dominant no gi practitioner apart from Lister, namely Rousimar Palhares (who has also trained in the gi, but AFAIK has mainly been a no gi/MMA guy), lost in the finals to Galvão, the decorated gi competitor who also happened to win the absolute.
9/29/11 11:50 PM
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Tap21
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Edited: 09/30/11 12:03 AM
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Shemhazai - "You have such a chip on your shoulder."


I usually try not to respond to ad hominem attacks in these types of discussions.
9/29/11 11:54 PM
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Tap21
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Shemhazai - 
Also, both Barral and Rodolfo are known to be much weaker no gi players than gi players, relying heavily on gi grips for key techniques in their arsenals, so it comes as no surprise to anyone that they would perform less spectacularly in ADCC than in the Mundials.


Yeah, this is my point exactly. There is a disconnect between their preparation for the two different events.
9/30/11 12:02 AM
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Tap21
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Also, Lister got his blackbelt after he shed the gi and won the ADCC 2003 absolute.
10/1/11 2:02 AM
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GBEmilio
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I think there isn't a large enough sample size to make a strong case for pure no-gi grappling. Most guys start out in the gi it's just how it is. Maybe with the popularity of mma and no-gi tournaments there will be more pure no-gi grapplers like manly, coco etc. Personally I feel the gi has made my game alot better. I started off no gi because I couldn't afford going to a school at the time. Now part of that is I wasn't under high level instruction but honestly feel my game is alot tighter and I'm better mentally whenever I roll no-gi as result of using the gi. Phone Post
10/1/11 7:38 PM
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pachanga
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You are cherry picking two gi guys who did poorly while ignoring all the gi guys who did extreme well. Not very convincing. Phone Post
10/2/11 2:07 PM
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Tap21
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^^^^My point is that these two guys in particular are stellar at gi and IBJJF events but failed to live up to the hype in ADCC. These two were on SO MANY ADCC predicted winner lists based on their gi and IBJJF performances. They were picked for that reason.

What I am suggesting is that maybe their is a disconnect such that preparation for those IBJJF events (Romulo claims in the quote above that he only did 10 weeks of no-gi prior to this ADCC) may not be adequate for high level "full rules" no-gi as in ADCC.
10/2/11 5:35 PM
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CompanyBlue
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Tap21,
Shut up already
10/3/11 12:29 AM
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Tap21
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Just pointing out that these two types of events (IBJJF and full rules grappling) may have diverged a little bit at this point. If anyone disagrees with me, it's no big deal. Just throwing an idea out there.
10/18/11 1:09 AM
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etownbjj1
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Man, I haven't browsed here in awhile. But I just read 3 different threads and Tap21 is on all of them pissing people off!! lol. Rodolfo is young in the game. He doesn't even have 10 years of training experience. I know for a fact he could care less about no gi right now. He trained less than a month without the gi for this ADCC. If he chooses to be the best at it, he will be. In the meantime, he is more focused on being the most decorated Jiu-Jitsu Champ of all time. Which he will easily do.
10/18/11 4:41 AM
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CompanyBlue
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According to Tap21, everybody who wears a gi and does well in no gi competitions should be classified as no gi competitors. If they train in the gi and do bad in a no gi tournament than they are gi reliant guys. Go figure.
10/18/11 10:20 AM
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Tap21
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I just pointed out that these two were predicted to be winners by a huge number of people, and subsequently failed to do as well as expected. For Romulo, this is the third time he has failed to medal at ADCC.

I also suggested that this may indicate a divergence in the necessary preparation for limited rules IBJJF no-gi events and full rules events like ADCC.

So far, I am reading, and people are telling me, that Rodolfo did "less than a month without the gi" and Romulo only did "10 weeks training with no-gi" for this event. But, that's exactly what I am pointing out. While a tiny bit of no-gi training may cut it for IBJJF style no-gi events, it may not have been enough for ADCC in the case of these two.
10/18/11 11:19 AM
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Tap21
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CompanyBlue - According to Tap21, everybody who wears a gi and does well in no gi competitions should be classified as no gi competitors. If they train in the gi and do bad in a no gi tournament than they are gi reliant guys. Go figure.



That's not true.

I have just pointed out that the top two weight classes were won by guys who have shed the gi.

-99kg Dean Lister famously shed the gi prior to his 2003 Absolute win. He has also been a passionate advocate of no-gi training. He are some things he said in the bonus footage to his "Dean Lister Real World Submissions" DVD (all paraphrased):

--"I spend all my time...all my day in no-gi."
--"I don't wear a gi."
--"Nowhere in the word jiu-jitsu does it say gi"
--"You learn the same thing from a good no-gi instructor."
--"If anyone says no-gi is not technical I'll laugh right at them. It's just ridiculous"


+99kg Vinny Magalhaes has posted on this forum in the past about how he basically hasn't trained himself in the gi in the last five years except a couple weeks in 2007 (although he does teach some classes in the gi for money). Here is what he said in two posts from January 2010:

" Unfortunately I don't wear a gi since 2007, and I have a fight scheduled for march, so most likely, I'm not competing in the ADCC Pro Gi, since I'm not fighting for free or paying to fight."

"I just competed at the 2007 Mundials, where I took 3rd Place in a division above mine, after 2 years without training with gi, and having only 2 weeks of gi training at Saulo's school"

I also pointed out that the guy who took silver at -88Kg (Toquinho) is a black belt in Luta Livre as well as BJJ and has trained with many Luta Livre black belts on a daily basis for years. This is despite what he is reported to have said at a recent seminar. I even posted a link to a photo and article on the Tatame website showing Toquinho holding his luta livre black belt certification from Eraldo Paes and Daniel D'Dane.


I am just going off what Lister and Magalhaes have said themselves and what Tatame (a BJJ magazine) has reported about Toquinho. The information is all available and everyone is free to draw their own conclusions.
10/18/11 8:17 PM
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MickColins
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Losing to Lister is hardly failing to live up to the hype. Phone Post
10/18/11 9:31 PM
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darkness66
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Marcelo never competed in the gi and rarely trained nogi before winning gold at his first abu dahbi. I see what you're getting at op but vieira and barral are individuals. They competed at the highest level and didn't fare well. gi guys are still dominating the sport. Phone Post
10/21/11 2:50 PM
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Tap21
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^^^That is a myth that was repeated over and over again until Marcelo's X Guard Book came out.

--On page 16 of his book he details how when he first came to Fabio Gurgel's Academy, "everyone trained exclusively no-gi."

--He said that he thought to himself, "I have no idea how to do this". He states that, "I had only trained without a gi once before, and I hadn't been very successful", and "I was forced to adapt."

--He continues, "Fabio helped me every step of the way, and after a year rolling without the gi, I began to feel very comfortable."

Only then, after a full year of no-gi, did he enter ADCC.

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