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Anaconda No-Gi UnderGround >> Failure of Romulo Barral and Rodolfo Viera at ADCC


10/21/11 2:54 PM
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Tap21
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MickColins - Losing to Lister is hardly failing to live up to the hype. Phone Post



I agree strongly that there is no shame in anyone losing to ex-Absoute and Superfight Champion Dean Lister. However, a large proportion of the prediction lists put Rodolfo on the medal stand and not Lister. That is the hype I am referring to.
11/4/11 1:28 AM
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nogblublt
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Straight no gi guys are a minority. But everyone of the ADCC champs train no gi and gi or started in the gi. Phone Post
11/6/11 4:50 AM
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Tap21
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^^That wasn't always the case before MMA $$ started attracting all the best no-gi guys away from grappling comps.

In 1999, 3/6 of the gold medals went to no-gi guys.

In 2000, 2/6 of the gold medals went to no-gi guys.

In 2001, 2/6 of the gold medals went to no-gi guys.

That's not counting the many silvers and bronzes that went to no-gi guys in this period.
11/6/11 7:26 AM
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John Frankl
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Interesting statistics. Put another way....

Even 10 years ago only 33% of the no gi guys were able to win a no gi event.

Then again, 10 years ago I didn't have an Iphone. Things change.
11/6/11 2:33 PM
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Tap21
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In 1999, 50% of the golds went to no-gi guys.

The decline from then until now definitely seems to go in the same direction as the decline in compensation parity between ADCC and MMA.
11/12/11 11:31 PM
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HoldYerGround
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Hmmm, I'm looking at the results on wikipedia and it looks to me like 16 out of 18 medalists train in the gi, with the other two (Dean and Vinny) having build their foundation using the gi.

It seems very plain to me that the gi can be used as an invaluable tool for developing a sub grappling base. IMO, after you hit somewhere between purple and black, you can move on to 100% no gi.

11/13/11 12:27 AM
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joshjitsu
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If the point of this thread is to point out the pussification of IBJJF tourney's then, yes I agree with you, they are shitty. Phone Post
11/14/11 2:25 AM
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Tap21
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^^^Exactly.
11/14/11 10:12 AM
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John Frankl
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Interesting point. It may just work out that we have 3 major venues for grapplers.

IBJJF: super regulated/comensurately safe

Abu Dhabi: Less clothes, less regulations, a bit harder on the body

MMA: self explanatory

But none of this really addresses the fact that Marcelo, Rafa, Cobrinha, Braulio, Roger, and on and on wear the gi alot and still pretty much totally dominate. Go figure.
11/14/11 9:28 PM
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Tap21
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I think that's a fair depiction of the divergence of those three types of events.

One thing about Marcelo, Rafa, Cobrinha, Braulio, and Roger is that they are all Brazilian (putting aside for now any secondary citizenship or residency they may have gained).

Yet, I am not prepared to say that their Brazilian origin(as a variable in and of itself) is important for submission grappling domination.

For that reason, logic attributing their ADCC success to their gi training is also not very persuasive to me personally.

I think it has a lot more to do with the relative size of the pools of guys aimed at ADCC. A ton of Brazilian gi guys are aimed at ADCC, so a ton of the winners come from that group. A comparitively very small number of no-gi guys are aimed at ADCC, so only a very small number of the winners come from that group.
11/16/11 1:13 AM
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HoldYerGround
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Tap21 - I think it has a lot more to do with the relative size of the pools of guys aimed at ADCC. A ton of Brazilian gi guys are aimed at ADCC, so a ton of the winners come from that group. A comparitively very small number of no-gi guys are aimed at ADCC, so only a very small number of the winners come from that group.


If it is proportional, then you have no grounds for an argument that the strict no-gi guys are using superior training methods. Besides, as I've said, Lister and Vinny both built their base using the gi. Not a single medalist in ADCC 2011 grew up in a strict no-gi environment.
11/16/11 1:21 AM
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John Frankl
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My mind is made up. Don't confuse me with facts!
11/16/11 1:33 AM
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Tap21
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HoldYerGround -
If it is proportional, then you have no grounds for an argument that the strict no-gi guys are using superior training methods.


That's not really what I am generally addressing. I am generally addressing the idea that the gi is not necessary to do well in no-gi. In this thread, I wasn't even really thinking about that. I was just pointing out the divergence between IBJJF events and ADCC.
11/16/11 3:12 AM
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HoldYerGround
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Tap21 - That's not really what I am generally addressing. I am generally addressing the idea that the gi is not necessary to do well in no-gi. In this thread, I wasn't even really thinking about that. I was just pointing out the divergence between IBJJF events and ADCC.


Oh then let me address the original question.

Tap21 - Is this failure of heralded young gi players at ADCC the beginning of a disconnect between success in IBJJF gi and "limited rules" no-gi (no reaping, no heelhooks) events and the full rules no-gi events like ADCC, Grapplers Quest, and NAGA?


In short, most definitely not.

Romulo is not a heralded young player, he is on the downside of his career after suffering a major injury and never fully returning to his old form. He is no longer the top player in his weight class. I don't recall so many people seriously taking him as a favorite, especially given his previous performances no-gi, an area of competition he seemingly does not pursue with the same vigor as his gi career.

Rudolpho is the epitome of a young rising star, particularly in the gi. However, his no-gi performance this year at the WPJJC was arguably underwhelming, losing to Lovato in weight class and unable to score on a tiny Rafael Mendes in the absolute category. That said, his 2011 gi performances were stellar, still making him, at worst, an ace competitor in ADCC.

He lost, as we know, by heelhook/rib injury to Lister. But Lister is not nearly a weak enough competitor for this to be called an upset. This makes it difficult for me to comprehend any argument for your cause based on this example. Maybe you can craft something out of ADCC 2009's Cavaca - Vinny flawless victory heelhook.

I do not know exactly what you mean by "well" as used in "I am generally addressing the idea that the gi is not necessary to do well in no-gi." However, what I have seen in ADCC 2011 is that every single medalist used the gi as a main component in their development.



A better argument, I feel, for the success of no-gi players in past ADCC competitions is their familiarity with wrestling takedowns and ADCC's rules regarding guard pulling. I feel this rule disparity between IBJJF events and ADCC events presents a more apparent threat to gi players given the wrestlers involved in the competition.
11/16/11 9:31 PM
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Tap21
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HoldYerGround - 

In short, most definitely not.

Romulo is not a heralded young player, he is on the downside of his career after suffering a major injury and never fully returning to his old form. He is no longer the top player in his weight class. I don't recall so many people seriously taking him as a favorite, especially given his previous performances no-gi, an area of competition he seemingly does not pursue with the same vigor as his gi career.

Rudolpho is the epitome of a young rising star, particularly in the gi. However, his no-gi performance this year at the WPJJC was arguably underwhelming, losing to Lovato in weight class and unable to score on a tiny Rafael Mendes in the absolute category. That said, his 2011 gi performances were stellar, still making him, at worst, an ace competitor in ADCC.


As an example, check out the first page of the "ADCC 2011 Prediction Thread" over on Sherdog.

Post #1 predicts both Romulo and Rodolfo as medalists.

Post #5 concurs with Post #1.

Post #8 picks Rodolfo.

No one on the first page even mentions Lister.

That is the hype I am talking about.


I believe the gi is not necessary to do well in submission grappling. Why do I think that? Because the guys below have done well in submission grappling.

Here is a list of accomplished no-gi based grapplers:

Jake Shields
--2005 ADCC Bronze. Subbed Leo Santos (7x Mundials Champ) by RNC. Reported on his twitter that he has only done about 4 hrs of gi in his life.

Denny Prokopos
--No-gi Mundials Brown Belt Champion. No-gi Mundials Black Belt Bronze (subbed Wesley Gann and Rodrigo Rainieri?). 2010 FILA 65kg World Champion. People have long dismissed Prokopos by incorrectly stating that Prokopos was in the gi until purple, but Eddie Bravo has recently pointed out that Prokopos hasn't been in the gi since he was about 14 years old.

Josh Barnett
--No-gi Mundials Black Belt Champion. Although awarded a BJJ BB, he is famously known for being a no-gi catch wrestler.

David Avellan
--2009 ADCC Bronze at weight. Subbed Tarsis Humphreys by RNC.

Marcos Avellan
--2004 ADCC North American Trials Champ. ADCC competitor.

Otto Olson
--2003 ADCC Silver at -77kg (beat Daniel Moraes & Fernando Terere).

Rustam Chsiev
--2010 ADCC North American Trials Champ. Many times GQ pro division champ. At the July 30 NYC Ultimate Absolute he beat Cyborg Abreu and Davi Ramos to get into the finals against Galvao. He took Galvao into overtime. No points were scored, so the judges handed the decision to Galvao.

Enrico Cocco
--trained with Avellan's since he was 13. Gold at 2011 ADCC West Coast Trials. When he was 16, tapped Cesar Santos (a Gracie Barra Brown Belt at the time) with a leg lock. ADCC 2009 competitor. Won GQ Beast of the East 170 lbs advanced with all subs (March 20, 2010). Subbed Edson Diniz (ATT) by reverse heelhook at GQ Europa Orlando Pro Division 4-16-10.

Gilbert Melendez
--ADCC 2005 competitor. Beat Baret Yoshida.

Cacareco
--ADCC 2001 98kg Bronze. ADCC 2003 98kg Silver. ADCC 2003 Absolute Silver. ADCC 2005 98kg Runner up. He later joined BTT but did great before then as a luta livre guy.


Jeff Monson
-- ADCC 2001 +99kg Silver. ADCC 2000 -99kg Silver (beat R. Medeiros, also beat Shaolin in the absolute). ADCC 1999 -99kg Gold (beat Saulo, Rigan, and R. Traven). Similar to Cacareco, did great before ever training in the gi. Monson joined ATT mid way through 2001. (http://www.knucklepit.com/mixed-martial-arts-jeff_monson.htm).


K-Taro Nakamura
-- Subbed Paul Schreiner (3x US Open Gold Medalist, Mundials Brown Belt Bronze Medalist, PanAm Silver Medalist) by Kimura at Deep X February 6, 2010. K-Taro trains at Wajyutsu Keisyukai Gym in Japan (http://www.wk-net.co.jp/).

Takashi Yamada
--Subbed Ryan Hall by guillotine at Deep X February 6, 2010. Yamada trains at Brave Gym in Japan (http://www.k-miyata.net/brave/index.html).

Jared Rosholt
--Gold at 2011 ADCC West Coast trials. NCAA D1 Wrestler.

Man, if that is as far as pure no-gi can take you....I think I'm cool with that.

This isn't even counting all the guys like Dean Lister (beat Saulo and Pe De Pano to win ADCC 2003 Absolute Gold, beat Jean Jacques Machado in 2005 in the Superfight, beat Augusto Ferrari, and subbed Radek Turek, Rodolfo Viera, and Joao Assis to win -99kg in 2011 ), Dave Terrell, Eddie Bravo (North American ADCC Trials Winner and Most Technical Competitor Award), Vinny Magalhaes 2011 +99kg ADCC Gold, Jason Miller, Chris Brennan, Rani Yahira, et. al. who started in the gi but never (or very seldomly) use it anymore.

Also, regular rank and file pure no-gi guys are submitting actively competing BJJ black and brown belts in tournaments like Grapplers Quest.
11/17/11 5:49 PM
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HoldYerGround
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I agree that the gi certainly isn't necessary to do well no-gi, although I would argue it is a good tool for that end to some extent (it could also ruin your no-gi game if used improperly). This however, was not your initial question:

"Is this failure of heralded young gi players at ADCC the beginning of a disconnect between success in IBJJF gi and "limited rules" no-gi (no reaping, no heelhooks) events and the full rules no-gi events like ADCC, Grapplers Quest, and NAGA?"

You can list every no-gi medalist ever in the history of no-gi competitions, but if it doesn't support this trend, its irrelevant. The best source of data I could possibly produce on this subject, the results of ADCC 2011, shows 16/18 gold medalists who still train in the gi as if for an IBJJF event, the 2 exceptions having vast experience in it although they do not still train like that.
11/18/11 1:30 PM
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Tap21
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HoldYerGround - ...the results of ADCC 2011, shows 16/18 gold medalists who still train in the gi as if for an IBJJF event...


I don't know if you can really say they were training "as if for an IBJJF event" when the submissions for the men's divisions broke down something like this:

17 wins by leglock
8 wins by armbar
6 wins by guillotine
5 wins by RNC
4 wins by triangle
1 win by D'Arce
11/19/11 1:54 AM
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HoldYerGround
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Sorry I meant something along the lines of "often" or "mostly" in that style of training, which does indeed make the submission landscape curious.

That said, I guess there are a couple possible reasons why the occurrence of leglocks are so high.

1) There us a failure to observe how common leglock submissions are in IBJJF events, even with heelhooks banned. I don't have actual stats but it did hit me recently that A LOT of the submissions I see attempted or completed in the black belt category tend to be toe holds.

2) The style of play in BJJ has changed to show an increase in "leg spaghetti" style players: competitors who tie up their opponents in 50/50 and other like positions to earn a sweep or otherwise score. By having more lax rules on leg attacks, previously unavailable submissions are now available in now commonly attained positions.

3) OR training for tournaments without liberal leglock rules creates players susceptible to that kind of attack, thus resulting in a higher than normal occurrence of those submissions.

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