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Judo/Sambo UnderGround >> Jiu-jitsu is bad for judo

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11/11/11 6:38 PM
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raleigh
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Only reason this blog post and discussion is being had is newaza instruction sucks and training methods for newaza suck presently for the majority of USA judo. This is on its own,not compared to Bjj or whatever else.
11/12/11 6:47 AM
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UNIFIEDTEAM1
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11/12/11 6:48 AM
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judoblackbelt
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Jayflo hit an important aspect of judo, transitioins from standing to mat work that is critical to your judo development/success. BJJ you have a lot of time to setup while judo you want to take the split second advantage of attacking your opponent on the ground from an position immediately after the throw. Even though we practice mat work seperately from standing the mindset is attack after the throw. But this is only accomplished if you practice this way. Develope the techniques/mindset.
11/12/11 1:51 PM
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Spartan79
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HoldYerGround
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Whatever, you don't want to train BJJ, keep sucking on the ground. Its not my problem.

Lol yeah cus nooo judoka has any newazza skills! Phone Post
11/12/11 3:08 PM
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raleigh
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comparing a purple belt to an olympic level judoka is comparing apples to oranges. get real people. Average judoka, average school, matwork sucks as a generalization in the USA. Yes the best are going to be the best, by definition. this is a silly argument, silly blog post IMO. good post by JR.
11/13/11 12:01 AM
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HoldYerGround
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Spartan79 - HoldYerGround<br>1 day ago<br>Whatever, you don't want to train BJJ, keep sucking on the ground. Its not my problem.<br><br>Lol yeah cus nooo judoka has any newazza skills! <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>



To make a wide generalization among Judoka in the USA, no, no they don't have very strong newaza skills at all.
11/13/11 11:29 PM
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judom
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What I found most useful about BJJ when I trained Judo intensely was passes and sweeps. Given my then limited access to BJJ, I watched all of the DVD's around, but found few really solid gi' DVD's on passes and sweeps. The best one at the time was Saulo Ribeiro's and I picked up for myself 1-2 good passes and 1-2 sweeps. I am still using some of the passes in Judo.

Other things like weird advanced guards I found it hard to see how to transfer to Judo successfully, so I never tried these seriously, or just did them for fun in practice. I also did not find submission instruction from BJJ useful.

The details on arm-bars and chokes from the back I've seen in BJJ is actually worse than in Judo. Perhaps because not many people give up their back so much.
11/13/11 11:40 PM
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judom
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SamboSteve,

I watched those BJJ vs. Sambo videos once, they were interesting.

My experience from what I've seen in Russia/ various Eastern Europe dojos is that BJJ guys have a SUPER hard time with A-level Judo guys in the gi'.

Check this match out:

http://www.youtube.com/user/mmabg#p/u/55/yifodtyg1YQ

thats R. Dimitrov (Combat sambo world champ + judo/sambo/mma dude) in white gi' vs. L. Guedjev (purple/brown belt in BJJ, 10+ years of experience in BJJ, MMA fighter, main ADCC referree) in blue gi'.

Now this dude ain't even close to A-level judo, yet BJJ guy has super hard time with him and loses.

This is a BJJ match and as you can see, the BJJ dude has a super hard time of getting anything going. That is how I have seen these matches play out, exactly like this one.

Yes, some passes/sweeps are useful, but in a 5-min match against these animals, you are very unlikely to be pulling off fancy sweeps, triangles, arm-bars, etc.

And a missed attempt will quickly get you pinned and game over, as Canto found out a few times. Different game.
11/14/11 6:24 AM
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judoblackbelt
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fun match to watch. White gi was super balanced and strong. The blue gi tried multiple arm bar setups but to no avail. No chance to sweep with the white gi's wide base. Suprized he didn't try to hook under the leg for a sweep.
11/14/11 9:20 AM
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panic686
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judoblackbelt - Jayflo hit an important aspect of judo, transitioins from standing to mat work that is critical to your judo development/success. BJJ you have a lot of time to setup while judo you want to take the split second advantage of attacking your opponent on the ground from an position immediately after the throw. Even though we practice mat work seperately from standing the mindset is attack after the throw. But this is only accomplished if you practice this way. Develope the techniques/mindset.



Newb question:

When I practice throws, I often try to immediately follow to the ground but my instructor is telling me to stay standing. I am too new to understand if this is for the betterment of the technique or not. All my instincts want me to follow the throw to the ground though. How can I tell if it is for the betterment of the technique vs. sport rules?
11/14/11 3:39 PM
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judom
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jbb,

This dude is not even REMOTELY close to A-level judo. And many people are saying that the BJJ dude is really at the black belt level (he is way overdue).

In a 5-min Judo match, when some of these monsters gets a hold of you, say Georgiev, you ain't going nowhere. You ain't sweeping or subbing anyone in a 5-min match.
And God help you if you miss the attempt and end up pinned. You are done. And it doesn't mater if your name is Marcelo Garcia or Galvao.

So yes, I agree with Anna Maria, for top level competitive Judo, BJJ is pretty much useless. In the same way, wrestling is not helpful for Judo (unless your dojo sucks).
11/14/11 5:45 PM
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judoblackbelt
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panic 686- when you throw you hold onto the the opponent's gi with at least one hand and follow up immediately with mat work is the text book answer. That way you keep the opponent near you for mat work if not an ippon. Many times in randori we don't follow up with mat work because we practicing throwing skills to get more attacks in. You might be behind in a contest and might forego matwork to get as many throwing attempts in when time is working against you. We also practice throws with matwork attacks after the throw. Another reason your instrctor does this is you don't people rolling on the ground while others are throwing, possible collisions/injuries.
Judo - Who said the guy was "A" level? I have been to an A level event and have watched many A level event judo matches. And I agree he is no way near "A" level. I was impressed by his side control when he got regarded.
11/14/11 5:46 PM
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judoblackbelt
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I wasn't impressed by his side control when he got regarded.
11/15/11 6:55 PM
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Newaza freak
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The question could also be adressed like this,

Is too much extensive sport judo training Bad for Your Bjj?

Too much of any training away from Your actual sport could Be detrimental to the sport You are currently pursuing.

However,the right mixture of crosstraining with the proper realization of What You can do and What You Cant do in Your own particular sport, is probably worth investing time in. Phone Post
11/16/11 3:07 PM
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HoldYerGround
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Yeah the Georgiev guy isn't anywhere near A level Judo, merely a world champion in Combat Sambo, no big deal. The BJJ guy is, eh, who? A world champion? A top level competitor? A black belt? Or is he none of those things?

How could you possibly use this match to make your argument?
11/16/11 4:21 PM
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judom
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dude, this isn't Georgiev. This guy has an abysmal record in Judo. And combat sambo world champ does not mean much. I have a friend who medalled there who couldn't win a match at Judo nationals. Don't give too much meaning to the term 'world champ' :)

They are roughly at the same level and same years of experience. In fact, the BJJ guy has a bit more experience in grappling (gi and no gi').
11/16/11 7:00 PM
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raleigh
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If Ann Maria wasn't Ann Maria, she'd be labled a troll and ran off the judo forums. This is silly.
11/19/11 6:35 PM
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the rooster
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I am assistant coach for a judo youth and adult program. Our head coach is a traditional judo blackbelt. I'm a bjj brown belt and judo blackbelt. We have a former OU wrestler who is a blackbelt.

There are times when a bjj or wrestling move is applicable to and can be used in judo. Our kids call it all judo but we combine traditional judo with some cross training and have found that it works for us.


11/20/11 3:26 PM
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HoldYerGround
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My point in that area of discussion is that it was a bad example, just like BJ Penn's white belt domination of a black belt Judo division is a terrible example as well. BJJ is not well established in Europe and quality competitors, instruction, and training is few and far between. Save Gunnar Nelson, there is not a single European competitor who threatens wins in top level BB BJJ competition. The case for European Judo is quite the opposite. This match proves as much as a match between a BJJ blue belt and Judo green belt.

There is no doubt that too much BJJ can be bad for your Judo competition results. Could you imagine training BJJ 5 days a week and Judo 2 days and expecting improvement in your results? Of course not, its ludicrous. However, we have at our disposal a group of people who do nothing but train newaza, I believe a smart player would be able to use that resource effectively to better his Judo. Can that tool be used improperly? Of course. If a player spends his time mastering kneebars, long, slow setups for his attacks, etc he would be hammering a nail with a screwdriver wouldn't he?

To be clear, I train and compete in both sports, feel that they are both one dimensional, and try to be as well rounded as a grappler as I can.
11/24/11 9:55 PM
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truehonor
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Gbutt, I completely agree with you. I have been around both disciplines (extensively). I tell you, I can spot a good Judo newaza player when he show up to train. Why? I will gave you examples; pressing arm bars- in particular the many varities that float off the hips or across the chest region as a fulcrum - to include the swim through roll-to armlock; like modified whizzers and sit outs, also looping chokes that rely on whole body movements, as oppose to the more complicated, slower set-up and feeding chokes common in BJJ. These same player however are also more prone to getting swept and have limited guard passes in general. BUT this is where the agreement with you lay: The rules and time constraints for a ground fight have made for the development and use of the mentioned technical examples. The Judoka has next to no time for set up, playing guard etc., so If a submission is going to happen, it will be SWIFT and out of nowhere, as they say. Let us not forget that a tight pin will win a ground fight as well, so why risk a submission hunt if you are in control of your opponent? The Judoka must move like a wrestler on the ground. You made some great points, senor.
11/24/11 11:13 PM
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judom
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HoldYerGround,

Look, both guys have roughly the same time in grappling, one in BJJ and the other in Judo/Sambo. Both are quite experienced, so its not some newbies where a huge variation of skills can take place.

In fact, the Judo guy's groundwork is known to be shitty as hell. And the BJJ guy is very good on the ground. Strictly technically, he is way better than this Judo guy.

My point is that:

1. Even a person with a very advanced BJJ couldn't do anything with a good Judo player on the ground in a match with a time limit. This match is actually fairly representative from what I've seen: BJJ dudes have extremely difficult time with serious, but far from A-level Judo/Sambo competitors in gi' matches, even under BJJ rules.

2. To really benefit from BJJ, my experience is that you really really need to pick the key parts and adapt them to Judo carefully. That also means you need to be a damn good Judo player already. Believe me, I have trained with some very good BJJ black belts, watched lots of BJJ DVD's looking to pick up good stuff to Judo. Its possible, but it takes a while.

Reality is, 99% of BJJ dudes in the US have not trained with serious Judo competitors. In Europe, there are many Judoka who are very strong on the ground. Many, who retire from A-level competition in fact train more like 70% ground work, due to the many injuries from Judo.

Even the very top BJJ black belts would have _tremendous_ trouble trying to sweep or submit them in a 5 min gi' match.

Its possible to benefit from BJJ for competitive Judo, I did learn a pass from BJJ that helped me win in Judo by pins, but it did take a while to adapt to Judo.
11/30/11 9:09 AM
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27CrazyFeet
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maximum efficiency....

if you want to get really good at newaza you are more likely to achieve that goal by finding a good bjj school and working with them.

go 2x a week for 6 months and see what type of results you get.

if you go to two extra judo classes a week they will not make you as effective as those two extra bjj classes.


If your dojo does 2 extra newaza only sessions a week congrats your newaza will get really good but the truth is that very very few dojos do anything like that and very few dojos do a lot of newaza.

I do think that even if you get a good blue belt or purple in judo they need to learn Judo newaza.. the strategy is different.. the defenses used against you are different.. positions will be different, pace will be different etc etc but still it will carry over or these new situations will not take long to adjust too..
12/3/11 12:12 PM
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Oldboy
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Edited: 12/03/11 10:25 PM
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..
12/3/11 12:16 PM
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Oldboy
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judoblackbelt - Readying all the comments once you enter the "other" sports elements the favor is with the other sport. There are some elements that are commonly shared among BJJ, sambo,wrestling, judo. Xtraining might enhance one facet of your particular sport.But won't make a huge difference in your success in your sport. If you want to be a judo champion then you better be able to throw for ippon. The most balanced fighter the US has is Kayla Harrrison who can win either with her standup skills or mat skills. Ronda was similar in her abilities. Pedro was similar, equal standup/mat skills.


This is very very true. While my BJJ background has helped me tremendously in Judo tournaments I would have been killed had I not been drilling my throws like crazy. Granted they aren't to the same proficiency as my ground work but the bottom line is if you want to be good you need to have both.
12/6/11 11:14 AM
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Seong gyeong
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I think Dr. Ann Maria is trolling to an extent, but I'll bite anyway.

I started out in BJJ under Tinguinha (who, btw, is one of the best teachers I've ever had). I trained at his dojo in Anaheim for a year and a half before he moved.

Later, I quit BJJ and began judo. I have met some guys with good newaza, but by and large, most guys--aside from some pins and gi chokes--don't handle themselves on the ground very well.

I can't comment on how things are in Europe like Judom has, but even here now in S. Korea, newaza doesn't seem to be that strong in general.

So, while judo may be all that you need, the fact that so many dojos don't offer much in the way of newaza instruction is reason to seek out the expertise of BJJ instructors.

Oh for fuck's sake, she already covered herself with an additional comment that I didn't see until now:

"I think we are in agreement. Basically, what I said is if your judo matwork is really bad, BJJ will help. I think your point (which I agree with) is that in some places the matwork in the judo clubs is really bad and the players are better off going to a BJJ club for matwork."

I dunno, DAM seems like sort of an antagonizing person.

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