UnderGround Forums
 

HolyGround >> If a Christian Soldier kills someone...


1/20/12 10:38 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
177 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 28306
so "when you tried to disprove pacifism" sounds like you brought and agenda to your studies

In addition, Jesus told not one Roman to follow him either, does that mean only Jews are to follow him? When Jesus very clearly says, "turn the other cheek" "do not return evil for evil but good for evil" "Love your enemies and do good to those that abuse you" "you have heard it said to love your friends and hate your enemies, but I say love your enemies" and "put away your sword, all those that live by the sword die by the sword" And after saying all of that... he lived it out by non violently standing up to the powers that be, and loving them even as they hammered spikes into his wrists.

You are using an argument of exclusion, to justify completely negating Jesus simple and direct commands.

Now just as an aside, I did not decide I liked pacifism and tried to prove it. I am not a non violent guy. I actually love violence, and have strong tendencies towards the retributive justice ideologies. But I could not make excuses to deny what Jesus very plainly says

rev
1/20/12 1:06 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
177 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 28307
what was a great example? his faith, in Jesus ability to heal, and his humility in coming to Jesus even though Jesus was "beneath" him. There is absolutely no tacit approval of soldiering. In addition, it takes severe back bends to justify killing your enemy and still loving them. And finally, the command to do good to those who do evil to you, is as straight forward as it gets.

In addition, in the early church you would not be allowed to be baptised if you were a soldier, unless you renounced the sword, which resulted in a death sentence. There are literally hundreds of examples of people accepting Christ, and then dying because they refused to carry the sword any longer.

rev
1/23/12 2:49 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
samcarr6
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 6/12/11
Posts: 305
tomp6581 - ...in War, does he go to hell if he is not remorseful?

I like discussing these type of things and I don't mean to troll anyone #FYI Phone Post
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

So if he's gay then killing him is ok. Phone Post
1/23/12 5:06 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
177 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 28309
ArthurFonzerill - when confronted with soldiers face to face, both john the baptist and jesus sent them on their way with a pat on the back to keep soldiering, it doesnt get any more direct than that


he also didn't tell them to follow him, so soldiers can't be Christians, doesn't get anymore direct than that... oh wait, that is ridiculous logic that only works if you are trying to justify yourself

rev
1/23/12 7:57 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Lahi
33 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 01/23/12 7:57 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 8289
.
1/23/12 7:57 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Lahi
33 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 8290
samcarr6 - "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

So if he's gay then killing him is ok.


Not if he's someone claiming to follow Jesus, who was pretty uncompromisingly direct about what it meant to be faithful to the God whose Kingdom he claimed to be setting up. I think the idea that all of the Bible is to be taken literally, instead of seen through the lens of Jesus, is a pretty new one that simply wasn't around in the early Church, and through much of Christian history.

"You have heard that it used to be said 'Thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy,' but I tell you, Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of you Heavenly Father. For he makes his sun rise upon evil men as well as good, and he sends his rain upon honest and dishonest men alike.

"...if you only love those who love you, what credit is that to you? No, you are to be...like your Heavenly Father."

Mt. Ch. 5

And we can see in plenty of stories the love and compassion with which Jesus treated those who were marginalized because of their sexual behavior.
1/23/12 8:00 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Lahi
33 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 01/23/12 8:01 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 8291
The story with the Centurion shows me that God reaches us where we're at, uses us even when we're not perfect and don't get it, works with us patiently...it shows me God can use us for great things even when we're way short of his ideals in other areas of our lives. It doesn't follow to me that it means Jesus approved of soldiers, or the things the Roman Military was doing, when so many of the things He taught and lived were directly opposed to these things.
1/23/12 11:46 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Ali
777 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 8697
Example of faith. Yes? So how do you take that as example of right-living? Jesus would tell you we're all sinners, no? And how is soldiering exempt? It seems clear Lahi is not the one doing the reaching.
1/24/12 12:40 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Ali
777 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 01/24/12 9:37 AM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 8698
Wrong.

So when do you take the word of John the Baptist as guidance? Is he somehow the guru? Jesus certainly didn't think so.

Jesus certainly did not say "what a good Christian" the soldier was. That's just a lie.

You can refuse to believe the obvious, too. It's been pointed out already in this thread. Resist not evil. Offer the other cheek. Maybe he was rendering unto Caesar what was Caesars. Maybe he disapproved of Simon's politics? Do you know who the Zealots were? Or do you think he was fine with "both sides" of that particular conflict, so good with Simon and the Centurion's positions? That would be as wishy-washy as any God could ever be, I think.

There's lots to over-interpret. Your reading, Arthur, is among the more squirmy-avoidant.
1/24/12 11:34 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Lahi
33 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 8294
I think its also important to ask why the early church understood those teachings literally (Luke 3, Matthew 8), and required that soldiers renounce the sword if they wanted to be baptized. What was once a majority position has now become a minority one, but there are still (and have always been) prominent Christian leaders and thinkers who support non-violence. Sometimes I think we can get into trouble if we're basing what we believe on what the majority, or even the great majority, of others do. Not always, but often I think.

Besides, the Centurion, there are other examples of Jesus not confronting every aspect of a person's behavior when he encountered them. He didn't tell the Syrophoenician woman to follow him, or change her beliefs either, at the time he met her. So I don't think we can always infer that Jesus approved of something someone did because he didn't address it at a particular time.

The biggest support I see for taking Jesus' teachings on violence literally is that he, his disciples, and the early church took them literally. This is very hard for me to get around. Remember Jesus was speaking about things that Roman soldiers literally did to people (like making them carry the soldier's belongings for a mile). And he was talking to people who not only regularly considered the possibility of armed resistance, but who believed that God was going to act militarily through them to overthrow the Romans. It just makes sense to me that they would have seen Jesus as speaking about the very real situations they were facing daily. It also seems that attitudes towards this changed as the church began compromising more and more with the powers of the world.

I came to non-violence kicking and screaming, its not my nature by any means, and many Christians I consider heroes don't teach it. But I can't deny that when I look and the Bible and the early church, it seems to me that's how Jesus taught and lived.

Here's an article on the early Christian views of violence and war. I've only scanned it but it looks interesting:

http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/contents/doctrine/ecvowams.htm
1/24/12 11:38 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Lahi
33 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 8295
Just some food for thought, Pastor and scholar Greg Boyd talking a little bit about how the ways we read the Bible changed radically as the Church became married to the powers that be:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV64Mt7X2D4
1/24/12 11:50 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
yusul
124 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 14267
ArthurFonzerill - wrong...


when he interacted with the prostitute, he praised her faith but commented on her sins


when he interacted with the soldier, he said nothing other than that he was a great guy.....obviously if jesus was against him being a soldier he would have said so instead of just saying what a good christian he was and sending him on his way to continue being a soldier


(and john the baptist when he told the soldiers how to be good christians)


you can refuse to believe the obvious, many people have their own interpretations



you are missing some actually historical context in your argument. the 'soldiers' in this context were more like police. Israel was OCCUPIED and part of the roman empire at the time. the centurion and soldiers were living in Israel not fighting enemy soldiers, nor killing civilians in combat situations. they were enforcing the laws of rome within reason, because the jewish leaders had some freedoms.
1/24/12 12:03 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Lahi
33 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 8296
I probably shouldn't have posted that first link without really reading it, and seeing what group it came from, but from a quick look it seems to give some interesting historical context.

Arthur, which baptism stuff do you mean?
1/24/12 12:54 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
177 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 28312
infant baptism and believers baptism are hotly contested by the ana baptists and all that followed in their footsteps. The fact that we have letters, from the first century refusing to baptise soldiers, judges, or athletes, or any who bear the sword, is one of the defenses that believers baptism use for both their position on baptism, and their position on non violence.

rev
1/24/12 4:34 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
177 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 28319
Johns baptism was not the churches baptism. Infant baptism started very early in the church, but even then you have to do what? Confirm your baptism, correct? Confirmation is basically the same as believers baptism. But when it became a big deal was when Augustine, and the issue of original sin became so prevalent. Then a child was damned to hell just for being born unless there was grace bestowed upon him. This was accomplished by baptism. But you cannot show one example in all of scripture of someone being baptized as an infant. So there is precedent on both sides.

As to my view... I believe in believers baptism, and Gods grace covering children. But I don't care if you sprinkle the kids forehead when they are little as an act of giving them over to God and putting them under the churches protection. That is what we do when we dedicate a child. God... well I think God loves us too much to condemn anyone about where they fall on this issue.

I will try and find the letters, but I think they were from Polycarp. And Justin Martyr said, "when Christ disarmed Peter, he disarmed us all"

rev
1/24/12 6:22 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
colubrid1
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/6/02
Posts: 1443
reverend john - Johns baptism was not the churches baptism. Infant baptism started very early in the church, but even then you have to do what? Confirm your baptism, correct? Confirmation is basically the same as believers baptism. But when it became a big deal was when Augustine, and the issue of original sin became so prevalent. Then a child was damned to hell just for being born unless there was grace bestowed upon him. This was accomplished by baptism. But you cannot show one example in all of scripture of someone being baptized as an infant. So there is precedent on both sides.

As to my view... I believe in believers baptism, and Gods grace covering children. But I don't care if you sprinkle the kids forehead when they are little as an act of giving them over to God and putting them under the churches protection. That is what we do when we dedicate a child. God... well I think God loves us too much to condemn anyone about where they fall on this issue.

I will try and find the letters, but I think they were from Polycarp. And Justin Martyr said, "when Christ disarmed Peter, he disarmed us all"

rev



John,

There is nothing in scripture about the age of accountabilty or that children or infants go to heaven .

1/24/12 6:35 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
177 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 28325
there is nothing in scripture that says they don't

Infact the scripture quite clearly says that in Christ all are made new. The idea that God, the loving father exemplified by and talked about by Jesus would damn babies to an eternity in hell is ridiculous.

As to the age of accountability I believe there is some evidence to support that in Jewish culture, which Jesus was a part of. And in the Old Testament, the verses of which I cannot remember the address for. But essentially, until you become a man you are not accountable but your father is accountable for you.

If infant baptism was a matter of eternal damnation do you not think Jesus would have mentioned it? Or Paul? or we would have seen a child baptized in at least one scripture somewhere?

rev
1/25/12 9:24 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
177 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 28327
that is a good reference, thanks for that.

didn't change my mind but challenged it :)

rev
1/25/12 1:01 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
reverend john
177 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 28338
no the he and his whole household

thanks

rev
1/25/12 1:55 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
colubrid1
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/6/02
Posts: 1444
So if you beleive one must be saved and trust Jesus with their salvation. At what poing in age does a person go from being saved to unsaved? At what day, hour minute?

Also if this short life is all about being born a sinner and you beleive in a heaven and hell. Then abortionists are doing the right thing.
1/25/12 3:06 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
inlikeflynn
2 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/11/06
Posts: 880
Are you suggesting that aborted babies go to hell?
1/25/12 3:58 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
colubrid1
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/6/02
Posts: 1445
inlikeflynn - Are you suggesting that aborted babies go to hell?


There is nothing scripture about a certain age of accountabilty. We all ALLL have fallen short. When dog has a puppy it is a dog. When a sinner has a child, it is a sinner. Anyone with kids knows this. It is obvious at a real early age.


Just saying to get some people to think. If you have children. Better raise them up in the Word and live your life out for Christ while teaching them why we need to be saved (His wrath) .Cause kids know when parents are fake and real.
1/25/12 6:04 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
inlikeflynn
2 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 9/11/06
Posts: 881
While there is nothing said explicitly about an age of accountability, it is inferred based on what it does say about God's character. Do you really think that a two year old, who has no capacity to understand the Gospel, would go to hell, and that this is consistent with the picture we have of God through the revelation of Jesus?
1/25/12 8:14 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Juijitsuboxer
56 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 9528
Matthew 19:13-15
New International Version (NIV)
The Little Children and Jesus

13 Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them.
14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15 When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.
1/25/12 8:15 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Juijitsuboxer
56 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 9529
Mark 10:13-16
New International Version (NIV)
The Little Children and Jesus

13 People were bringing little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14 When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15 Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” 16 And he took the children in his arms, placed his hands on them and blessed them.

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.