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TMA UnderGround >> Is kali/escrima a tradional martial art?


1/19/12 2:43 PM
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jrrrrr
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is kali/escrima a tradional martial art?

I've been doing some cross training in Kali for the last few months for a few different reasons.
Would kali/escrima be considered a tradional MA or something else?
1/20/12 9:34 AM
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cdueck
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 For the most part yes, things are done differently in the Phillipines so the tradition will look drastically different than other TMA's you might be thinking of.  They were taught in small groups of family or friends and lessons of respect were taught at the end of a stick rather than demanded like in Karate. 
1/25/12 11:44 AM
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Willybone
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You also have Modern Arnis, where Remy's intention was to integrate all those TMA elements (belts, kata, uniforms) into their traditional martial art.
1/27/12 7:39 PM
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CharlesLewis
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 It depends on the style. Some (like Sayoc or Atienza) are more modern, some more traditional. I do FCS which has a bit of both.
3/17/12 6:21 PM
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Steven Lefebvre
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Hello All,

It all depends on the system. Most still try to have a link to their roots and have traditions, customs and formalities, that are derived from the past. Sayoc and Atienza kali, have their traditions and formalities just as does FCS. Charleslewis if yu see Tuhon Ray soon let him know I said hi! We have shared a few beers now and then!

Gumagalang
Guro Steve
www.Bujinknadojo.net
3/17/12 7:36 PM
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CharlesLewis
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 Will do Guro... Ray will be in town sometime in April for a couple of days, and I am looking forward to training with him.
3/29/12 8:09 PM
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Tang Dynasty
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traditional!
4/1/12 11:09 AM
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Gendai Budo
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KyokushinCatch - traditional

FMAs probably been around longer than Karate or most Jujutsu, and is part of the native warrior culture, so yes it is traditional


I am interested in any research you have supporting this statement. My understanding is that (Japanese) Jujitsu is recorded in Kojiki (Record of Ancient Matters), finished in 712 A.D. and The Nihon Shoki (The Chronicles of Japan) finished in 720 A.D. Furthermore, Okinawan martial arts date to at least 1429 A.D. when King Sho Shin banned the practice.

In contrast, I am unaware of a pre-Spain written history of Arnis/ Eskrima/Kali.
4/5/12 1:01 PM
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John Frankl
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If a country survived, it had an army/martial arts or some sort. If not, it disappeared.

But that is very, very different than saying what any teacher or system (Sayoc, Inosanto, Doce Pares,etc. etc.) is teaching today has any real and traceable connection to that past martial culture.
4/5/12 2:38 PM
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jrrrrr
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THe history of FMA had mixed with the overall MA of southeast asia for centuries. Silat, variants on kuntao, etc kinda have mixed with each other predating the Spanish.

Going back to the ju-jitsu discussion, the Japanese real martial arts were archery and the way they used the sword. Ju-jitsu is their unarmed MA that came heavily from chin-na and shiao-shao(I always forget how to spell that properly..).
As already mentioned, What we call karate came from Okinawa which mixed its indigenous MA with chinese MA, Fukien White Crane, etc.
I think this thread went into different areas that I expected it would. When I meant tradional MA, I was thinking more to the question...

Has FMA shown itself to be still servicable through the test of time? Does it need major modification to be street usable in our current time period or does it need some major fixin'?
5/26/12 2:27 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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IMO, a traditional MA has certain elements:

1. A structure which includes a 'master' and a head of the system to whom some obeisance is given;
2. A ranking structure which tells the students who is accomplished in the system;
3. A system of calisthenic moves, self-defenses, katas, one-steps, two man forms and routines that the student has to memorize and perform with minimal credibility;
4. Various tests, breaking, kata, limited sparring that the student has to pass to move up in ranking;
5. Various 'secret' moves or information which is only given to select students;
6. Sparring is usually done by giving points by judges as to what would be a deadly blow.

It also lacks certain elements, or has restrictions
1. No striking to certain areas (head, groin, legs, back/spine)
2. No mounting after throws - the sequence 'stops' after indicating punches or armbars or locks
3. Pulling punches and kicks or making precise contact;
4. Limited safety equipment, or too much safety equipment;
5. No using certain moves which are considered 'outside' the system;
6. Limited resistance to various throws (taking a fall instead).

To the extent that your FMA system has these elements , it could be considered a TMA.
FWIW
8/11/12 11:37 PM
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supersaiyan
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ttt

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