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S&C UnderGround >> 5/3/1 is awesome


12/17/12 2:15 PM
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The Gunslinger
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HIT IMO.
12/17/12 6:10 PM
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jkd_guy
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Does it seem like it is lacking in the back department for 5/3/1?

Wait, before you comment:
1. I read the book
2. I know that you do 5 sets of 10 for pullups and rows.

BUT, for the other body parts you do the 5x10, but you also do the 5/3/1 for them.

For example, chest day:
Bench - 5/3/1 routine
Bench - 5x10
Kroc rows - 5x10

Squat - 5/3/1
squat - 5x10
crunches - 5x10

so, yes, for rows and pullups (on OHP day) you do 5x10. But you never go heavy (i.e. 5/3/1) for them. (but you do for every other bodypart)

unless you count the deadlifts as a back exercise, and while it is, its not the same as a row or pullup.
12/18/12 12:23 AM
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ravenman2000
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Edited: 12/18/12 12:26 AM
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^^ depends on your goals.  I'm no expert, but I think it would work fine if you did 5/3/1 pullups in place of 5/3/1 press, and adjust everything else accordingly.  This is assuming you can already do a sufficient number of weighted pullups so that you can back down to work from a reduced training max and properly load the exercise.

12/18/12 4:05 AM
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LordSeano
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Im doing boring but big and have chins and dumbell rows as two of my assistance exercises. That with deadlift has really hit my back well.

A big eye opener was tweaking my deadlift technique to really pull my lats into tension before starting the lift. There are some really good elite fts lifts videos on the topic Phone Post
12/18/12 2:42 PM
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molsonman
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jkd_guy - Does it seem like it is lacking in the back department for 5/3/1?

Wait, before you comment:
1. I read the book
2. I know that you do 5 sets of 10 for pullups and rows.

BUT, for the other body parts you do the 5x10, but you also do the 5/3/1 for them.

For example, chest day:
Bench - 5/3/1 routine
Bench - 5x10
Kroc rows - 5x10

Squat - 5/3/1
squat - 5x10
crunches - 5x10

so, yes, for rows and pullups (on OHP day) you do 5x10. But you never go heavy (i.e. 5/3/1) for them. (but you do for every other bodypart)

unless you count the deadlifts as a back exercise, and while it is, its not the same as a row or pullup.
Do the 5/3/1 where you choose your own exercises instead of big but boring if you are concerned. I think it is called tri something. Phone Post
12/24/12 10:12 AM
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poops
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Bumpalump. Did taku invent this? Phone Post
12/24/12 12:10 PM
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ravenman2000
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Molson, yes that is the "triumvirate".  And in the 2nd edition of the book, there is another, similar, but that makes suggested exercises as well as programming for one main assistance each workout (rather than 5x10) called "The Simplest Strength Template".

12/24/12 2:24 PM
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ArthurKnoqOut
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molsonman - 
jkd_guy - Does it seem like it is lacking in the back department for 5/3/1?

Wait, before you comment:
1. I read the book
2. I know that you do 5 sets of 10 for pullups and rows.

BUT, for the other body parts you do the 5x10, but you also do the 5/3/1 for them.

For example, chest day:
Bench - 5/3/1 routine
Bench - 5x10
Kroc rows - 5x10

Squat - 5/3/1
squat - 5x10
crunches - 5x10

so, yes, for rows and pullups (on OHP day) you do 5x10. But you never go heavy (i.e. 5/3/1) for them. (but you do for every other bodypart)

unless you count the deadlifts as a back exercise, and while it is, its not the same as a row or pullup.
Do the 5/3/1 where you choose your own exercises instead of big but boring if you are concerned. I think it is called tri something. Phone Post

The Triumverate yep.

12/29/12 3:30 AM
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pray for japan
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IN Phone Post
12/29/12 4:48 AM
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banco
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jkd_guy - Does it seem like it is lacking in the back department for 5/3/1?

Wait, before you comment:
1. I read the book
2. I know that you do 5 sets of 10 for pullups and rows.

BUT, for the other body parts you do the 5x10, but you also do the 5/3/1 for them.

For example, chest day:
Bench - 5/3/1 routine
Bench - 5x10
Kroc rows - 5x10

Squat - 5/3/1
squat - 5x10
crunches - 5x10

so, yes, for rows and pullups (on OHP day) you do 5x10. But you never go heavy (i.e. 5/3/1) for them. (but you do for every other bodypart)

unless you count the deadlifts as a back exercise, and while it is, its not the same as a row or pullup.

If you are doing deadlifts I don't see any need to go heavy on rows and pullups?
12/29/12 7:15 AM
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acamp76144
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12/29/12 7:24 AM
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fanat
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12/31/12 2:21 AM
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molsonman
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ravenman2000 - 

Molson, yes that is the "triumvirate".  And in the 2nd edition of the book, there is another, similar, but that makes suggested exercises as well as programming for one main assistance each workout (rather than 5x10) called "The Simplest Strength Template".


I have the 1st addition of the book. Is the Simplest Strength Template similar to the Dave Tate Periodization Bible?
12/31/12 3:29 AM
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ravenman2000
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Not quite.  The Dave Tate Periodization Bible, as you can see, has you doing about 5 sets of 10-20 reps on each of three assistance exercises that support the main 5/3/1 lift for that same day; so basically, it's like Boring But Big, but without repeating the same 5/3/1 movement as the first assistance lift.

So for the Simplest Strength Template (SST), you are actually programming your assistance.  This means you test a max for the main assistance exercise that goes with each 5/3/1 movement, and increase the weight for the training max each week by a set percentage (which, like the main 4 lifts, starts with 90% of your real max).  This involves doing three sets of ten ramping to a top set of 10 for the workout.  Here is an example:

5/3/1 day1, week 1:  Squat 3x5 with main lift programming

Assistance #1: stiff-legged deadlift 10x50%, 10x60%, 10x70%

Assistance #2: assistance for hamstrings, lowerback, and abs: 3 sets of 10-20 reps.

Then the next week, you'd be onto the 3x3 for squats, and the SLDL assistance would also be bumped up 5% for each set, i.e. 10x55%, 10x65%, and 10x75%, and again for the 5/3/1 week.

Hope that clarifies more than confuses!

1/3/13 12:51 PM
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A_Butler
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1/3/13 10:27 PM
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Sequoyah Sandford
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I am a fan of 5/3/1 also doing 6-8 sets of 2 reps increased my 1rm. Phone Post
1/6/13 6:28 AM
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KOArtist
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ravenman2000 -

Not quite.  The Dave Tate Periodization Bible, as you can see, has you doing about 5 sets of 10-20 reps on each of three assistance exercises that support the main 5/3/1 lift for that same day; so basically, it's like Boring But Big, but without repeating the same 5/3/1 movement as the first assistance lift.

So for the Simplest Strength Template (SST), you are actually programming your assistance.  This means you test a max for the main assistance exercise that goes with each 5/3/1 movement, and increase the weight for the training max each week by a set percentage (which, like the main 4 lifts, starts with 90% of your real max).  This involves doing three sets of ten ramping to a top set of 10 for the workout.  Here is an example:

5/3/1 day1, week 1:  Squat 3x5 with main lift programming

Assistance #1: stiff-legged deadlift 10x50%, 10x60%, 10x70%

Assistance #2: assistance for hamstrings, lowerback, and abs: 3 sets of 10-20 reps.

Then the next week, you'd be onto the 3x3 for squats, and the SLDL assistance would also be bumped up 5% for each set, i.e. 10x55%, 10x65%, and 10x75%, and again for the 5/3/1 week.

Hope that clarifies more than confuses!

Just to clarify, SST is not always 10 reps. It's indeed 3x10 for 5's week, but then 8 x _, 8_, and 6 x _ on 3s week, then 3 x 5 on both 1's week and deload week. Phone Post
1/6/13 2:25 PM
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ravenman2000
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Edited: 01/06/13 2:28 PM
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Thanks for the correction, I should have typed 8-8-6 for the second week.  Hopefully they get the idea-- the main assistance is programmed with progression each cycle.

1/6/13 9:48 PM
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turducken
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jkd_guy - Does it seem like it is lacking in the back department for 5/3/1?

Wait, before you comment:
1. I read the book
2. I know that you do 5 sets of 10 for pullups and rows.

BUT, for the other body parts you do the 5x10, but you also do the 5/3/1 for them.

For example, chest day:
Bench - 5/3/1 routine
Bench - 5x10
Kroc rows - 5x10

Squat - 5/3/1
squat - 5x10
crunches - 5x10

so, yes, for rows and pullups (on OHP day) you do 5x10. But you never go heavy (i.e. 5/3/1) for them. (but you do for every other bodypart)

unless you count the deadlifts as a back exercise, and while it is, its not the same as a row or pullup.

couldnt you just switch things around and do 5/3/1 for pullups or rows and then do 5x10 for deadlifts? obviously that would not work if you are powerlifting and want to get stronger in the deadlift, but if your goal is to get stronger in pullups or rows i think it would make sense to make them your primary exercise and do deadlifts as an assistance.
1/7/13 2:42 AM
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jkd_guy
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Wasnt so much asking for a workaround....just trying to start a discussion point. Phone Post
1/12/13 5:40 AM
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acamp76144
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Just started 531 on a 3 day program. Like it a lot so far in terms of very specific goals. I also did good mornings for the first time... Faaaack... So that's where my glutes are..... Phone Post
1/14/13 4:51 PM
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jkd_guy
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2 questions about the 5x10 sets.

I checked out 2 online calculators:
http://www.blackironbeast.com/5/3/1/calculator
www.strstd.com

using a 1 rep max of 500lbs (Im an OGer thats my curl weight)
both give different answers for the 5x10 sets.
for Blackiron it is:
5x10 using 135lbs
for www.strstd.com it is:
5x10 using 225lbs

1. which do you agree with?
according to the book, it should be www.strstd.com.
2. do you continue to use the same poundage for the 4th week for the 5x10? (deload week)
if so, then you'll end up using ALMOST more weight for the 5x10 than you would for the 5/3/1 weights
1/16/13 7:14 PM
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Whos the Bas
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1/16/13 7:37 PM
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banco
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Edited: 01/16/13 7:37 PM
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jkd_guy - 2 questions about the 5x10 sets.

I checked out 2 online calculators:
http://www.blackironbeast.com/5/3/1/calculator
www.strstd.com

using a 1 rep max of 500lbs (Im an OGer thats my curl weight)
both give different answers for the 5x10 sets.
for Blackiron it is:
5x10 using 135lbs
for www.strstd.com it is:
5x10 using 225lbs

1. which do you agree with?
according to the book, it should be www.strstd.com.
2. do you continue to use the same poundage for the 4th week for the 5x10? (deload week)
if so, then you'll end up using ALMOST more weight for the 5x10 than you would for the 5/3/1 weights



135 is way too low given it's less than 30% of 1 rm. I think as a general rule the higher your 1 rm the lower the % of 1 rm you should use on the 531 sets.

I don't think you should even be doing 5 x 10 on deload week. Also think 5x10 for deadlifts is dumb.
1/17/13 1:32 AM
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ravenman2000
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Agree with banco on point #1.

For question 2, you are supposed to deload the assistance as well-- go easy.  I have seen 3 sets of 10 recommended, with slightly reduced weight from the normal 5x10.  Just do enough to work out the stiffness, get some blood back in your muscles, and practice the movements instead of training the muscles.  Remember, it's really a light recovery workout.


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