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UnderGround Forums >> amateur MMA LEGAL in NY


1/30/12 8:49 PM
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siouxNYC
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I just read the NY State Attorney General's motion to dismiss Zuffa's lawsuit, and in it the fucker admits that the law banning pro MMA in New York does not apply to amateur bouts. I've been saying that for years (and writing about it), and that loophole in the law has enabled events like the Underground Combat League and many others avoid trouble with the authorities. Fuck yes.

Here's a link to the document - http://www.scribd.com/doc/79853000/Fighting-Motion - but the key lines pertaining to the statute that bans pro MMA read:

"The statute’s provision on its face explicitly speaks to ‘professional’ combative sports and does not address amateur sports. Moreover, while the legislature, in another statute, regulates amateur boxing and wrestling, the legislature has not enacted a provision expressly addressing any amateur martial arts activity. Accordingly, the statute does not treat amateur MMA bouts any differently from amateur bouts involving traditional martial arts."

Where you at, Seafood Ross? Where you at?
1/30/12 8:53 PM
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BLPorritt
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Uh oh Phone Post
1/30/12 9:06 PM
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Kirik
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 Very, veruy cool find!!!!
1/30/12 9:13 PM
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Immaculata
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TTT.
1/30/12 9:14 PM
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BLPorritt
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Now the UFC can turn Strikeforce into an all Ammy show and put on cards in NY!!!! Phone Post
1/30/12 9:19 PM
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siouxNYC
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well, there's still another law on the books that stands in the way of "big" shows doing their thing, and that's the law that bans alcohol at both pro and amateur events. but... this means that underground events like the Underground Combat League weren't illegal all along.
1/30/12 9:36 PM
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UGCTT_RhiNo
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linked this to a few people that would likely put shows up upstate :-)
1/30/12 9:44 PM
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bram
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So how can amateur be legal but not pro? Any lawyers who can enlighten me id truly appreciate it Phone Post
1/30/12 9:47 PM
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siouxNYC
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bram - So how can amateur be legal but not pro? Any lawyers who can enlighten me id truly appreciate it Phone Post


the law banning MMA makes a distinction between amateur and pro, with pro being the thing explicitly banned. thus, amateur MMA is (and always has been) untouched by the ban.
1/30/12 9:53 PM
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bram
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siouxNYC - 
bram - So how can amateur be legal but not pro? Any lawyers who can enlighten me id truly appreciate it <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>


the law banning MMA makes a distinction between amateur and pro, with pro being the thing explicitly banned. thus, amateur MMA is (and always has been) untouched by the ban.



I understand that but what is the distinction between the two that makes pro MMA illegal and amateur MMA illegal? Basically, what is their rationale for banning pro but allowing amateur?
1/30/12 9:58 PM
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siouxNYC
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no rationale is given in the statue. statutes never have rationales written into them. there's only the text, which bans "professional matches or exhibitions" of combative sports. remember, the law was written to keep shows like the UFC and Extreme Fighting out of the state. the state did not give a shit about smaller shows (mostly because there were very few smaller shows back in 1997, so it was a non-issue).
1/30/12 10:01 PM
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chuckles1
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It really blows my mind that this is still an issue Phone Post
1/30/12 10:11 PM
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bram
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siouxNYC - no rationale is given in the statue. statutes never have rationales written into them. there's only the text, which bans "professional matches or exhibitions" of combative sports. remember, the law was written to keep shows like the UFC and Extreme Fighting out of the state. the state did not give a shit about smaller shows (mostly because there were very few smaller shows back in 1997, so it was a non-issue).


Thank you, sir.
1/30/12 10:15 PM
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Authority Figure
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BLPorritt - Now the UFC can turn Strikeforce into an all Ammy show and put on cards in NY!!!!


A breach its contract with Showtime and owe it millions!!






No. Not gonna happen. lol
1/30/12 10:52 PM
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ABE FROMAN
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 I sent you an email asking when the next bout was, Sioux, didn't get anything back from you.
1/30/12 10:57 PM
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Jimenez
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Winn!!! NY MMA :D Phone Post
1/30/12 11:02 PM
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siouxNYC
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ABE FROMAN -  I sent you an email asking when the next bout was, Sioux, didn't get anything back from you.


It's coming, broseph. The event that happened yesterday wasn't MMA, it was just grappling matches and kickboxing bouts.
1/30/12 11:07 PM
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Funky Bacteria Productions
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Edited: 01/30/12 11:07 PM
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You will be infected™, funkybacteria.com
From what I understand, any mma event can be held on sovereign land in NY, meaning if the UFC wanted to go to say, Niagara Falls, NY and hold an event on the indian reservation there, it is sovereign land and there is absolutely nothing anyone could do about it to stop them from doing so.

That is how they have legal gambling in NF, NY.

As a matter of fact I was watching sun sports a couple weeks ago. They featured some mma fights from the res in NF, NY and the main event was Luigi Fioravanti, obviously a pro. 
1/30/12 11:10 PM
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siouxNYC
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Funky Bacteria Productions - From what I understand, any mma event can be held on sovereign land in NY, meaning if the UFC wanted to go to say, Niagara Falls, NY and hold an event on the indian reservation there, it is sovereign land and there is absolutely nothing anyone could do about it to stop them from doing so.

That is how they have legal gambling in NF, NY.

As a matter of fact I was watching sun sports a couple weeks ago. They featured some mma fights from the res in NF, NY and the main event was Luigi Fioravanti, obviously a pro. 


Correct. As long as the Indian reservation has a body that functions as an athletic commission, it's all good in the 'hood.
1/30/12 11:11 PM
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Garv
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 Hmm, very interesting. 
1/31/12 8:00 AM
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UGCTT_RhiNo
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Raging wolf is on the reservation up near Niagara Falls and puts on pretty good shows Phone Post
1/31/12 8:23 AM
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siouxNYC
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just a little more historical perspective for those out there who are curious.

-since the ban was put into place in 1997, other than the shows in indian reservations, there's been no "big" mma shows in NYS. but from 1997 to about 2003, local kickboxing promoters (like lou neglia) were allowed to have mma bouts on their cards. neglia's vengeance at the vanderbilt events on long island featured the likes of matt and nick serra, phil baroni and pete sell, doing it up mma-style, and there was even a bunch of mma bouts at a neglia show in NYC called "battle on broadway" (which took place in the ballroom of a hotel in times square). often, members of the athletic commission sat ringside as guests. the state simply did not give a shit. as long as the ufc wasn't holding events, it was all good.

-then, in 2003, the athletic commission started giving a shit. they reversed their lassez-faire position and started strictly enforcing how they interpreted the law, which was ALL MMA had to go. thus, vengeance at the vanderbilt bit the dust (which forced neglia to start up ring of combat in connecticut and new jersey). also, an MMA tournament out in brighton beach, brooklyn, got axed, and would-be promoters throughout the start were told to go screw themselves.

-as a result of this tough stance, MMA went underground. 2003 is when peter storm began doing churning out his UCL events (there's been close to 40 of them at this point); bike 'n brawl has done a few in upstate new york; there were a bunch in a cage at a school on long island; and a few odds and ends ones have popped up, done an event or two, and disappeared throughout the state. all of these events took place under a culture of secrecy - even though the entire time the law on the books allowed them.

-the curious thing about the law on the books is that it allows the athletic commission to permit outside sanctioning bodies to come in and do their thing - even for amateur MMA events. but the commission has never moved toward doing that. at first i thought it was douchebags within the commission who thought lowly of MMA (which was certainly the case in 2003), but i've since come to realize that a lot of it has to do with budget constraints and politics. the current athletic commission chairperson, melvina lathan, loves MMA. i'm pretty sure that if she had the budget - and she didn't think her job was on the line if she took a chance - she would've "officially" allowed an amateur MMA show to bloom.

-along the same vein as the "politics" thing, the world kickboxing association is specifically named in the statute as being allowed to sanction events in the state. and they do sanction kickboxing shows. but the WKA won't rock the bout and sanction amateur MMA, even though they sanction MMA elsewhere and are specifically named in the statute as being allowed to sanction stuff here. it's all just politics.
1/31/12 9:56 AM
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Elias Cepeda
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 Who is doing amateur shows in NY, then? I'd love to fight in NYC. 
1/31/12 10:01 AM
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SamboMMA
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ttt
1/31/12 10:14 AM
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JPBoyles
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Edited: 01/31/12 10:21 AM
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I just spoke with the NYSAC and as far as they are concerned MMA (whether pro or ammy) is still illegal across the board in NYS. It is considered a "combative sport".

They say that:

1)"A "combative sport" shall mean any professional match or exhibition other than boxing, sparring, wrestling or martial arts wherein the contestants deliver, or are not forbidden by the applicable rules thereof from delivering kicks, punches or blows of any kind to the body of an opponent or opponents."

2) "No combative sport shall be conducted, held or given within the state of New York, and no licenses may be approved by the commission for such matches or exhibitions".

I am sure you can put on an ammy "exhibition" event, but I wonder if putting on "illegal" events would cause issues with getting licensed by the NYSAC when MMA is legal.

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