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Karate UnderGround >> Started Systema....please help! Tips, advice, etc

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2/7/12 5:53 PM
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seek
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Hi all!

I am still training in mma, boxing, bjj, muay thaï etc...Started in1995.

I wanted to try systema and have just begun (dec. 2011)

i really love it and would love to understand more about it.

Please help a mma.tv bro!!


Are there really no technique to learn?
Is the goal to work only on intuition?
I am picking it up quite quickly, but it seems that a lot of my moves come from my cross training.
If I were a total newbie would i be able to respond approprieately?

I know that i will be doing systema till i die, and these are genuine questions!

Share whatever you guys feel to share, whether good or bad stuff about your experience!

Thanks!
2/7/12 9:10 PM
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cdueck
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 Your previous training will help you a ton but it might also hinder you when you really try to relax. Have fun.
2/8/12 4:03 PM
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Missing Glove Tape
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1) Make an "attn: ArthurFonzerill" thread on the UG/OG

2) Read this thread in its entirety: http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum_framed.frame&thread=1754374&page=1

3) Profit!
2/9/12 2:31 PM
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thanks!

TTT for more advice, principles, etc....
2/9/12 10:51 PM
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Missing Glove Tape
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In all seriousness, I think 'systema'(all of the different variants/substyles and lineages) is a bit of an enigma. On paper the core principle(s) and philosophy is as sound and relevant to the average martial artist as anything else, but in practice(as demonstrated by the plethora of youtube clips) it comes off as extremely hokey and TMAish...and at times bordering on cultish behavior.

To answer your questions though, in one sense there are techniques in systema, and in another sense there aren't. It really depends on whether you're talking about basic fundamentals(ie: how to perform an armbar or sprawl or throw a casting punch)that are pretty much universal, or a rigid curriculum that is taught A-B-C as in other styles. To the former, yes, and to the latter, I would say no.

In terms of intuition, I think the ultimate goal of any style is to approach a level of awareness/intuition that approaches that of the Matrix or the "I do not hit, 'it'(fist) hits all by itself) scene in Enter the Dragon. That would be great, of course, but the reality is that intuition alone does not cover all the variables in a fight or self-defense situation, so in practical terms I think the main purpose of training and the specific drills that make systema 'unique'(weird looking), is to help people a) relax, b) control their emotional state(fight or flight response), and, imo, to develop the type of 'flow' you see displayed by good bjjers re: position/transitions and wrestlers during scrambles, because in those situations it's more about basic movement/biomechanics than specific techniques. In that sense, and I think too, for overall self-defense, it's more important to possess what I would call basic boxing/wrestling 'ability', or perhaps a general ring/mat sense or 'game'(ie: in boxing; solid footwork, head movement, defensive skills, the ability to roll with and absorb shots, etc....in wrestling; balance, the ability to pummel/hand fight, a good sprawl, the ability to initiate/defend scrambles, etc), than it is to develop specific offensive techniques(ie: world class jab or a triangle choke so good you can tap Rickson Gracie with it). And in that sense, I think it's where the concept of intuition comes into play and why you don't see systema guys doing much that is/would be familiar to most people(ie: throwing a conventional jab or takedown-position-submission type chain of events. It seems to be more about taking/reacting to things as they come, and not doing more than is absolutely necessary to get the job done(defend oneself). Meaning, not trying to 'set up' a highlight reel 4 punch K0 combination when a knee to the balls will do, or pulling guard to set up a deep half guard sweep to reverse triangle choke double armbar combination when the opportunity to guillotine/neck crank them from the feet is staring you in the face.


Like any other style, it takes time and a qualified coach before anyone's training a minimum level of reliability, so if at this point you're a systema noob with minimal training, I wouldn't put much stock in your reacting in systema-esque fashion should the need arise. Because more than likely not enough time has elapsed for you to have absorbed the material and formed a brain-body(muscle memory) type connection, so more than likely you'd simply revert to your combat sports background, which depending on who you talk to(ArthurFonzerill, for example), is not a bad thing. ;)

My advice is to a) find a qualified instructor(if you haven't already) and/or make sure whoever you're training with now is legit, b) look into seminars/dvds from guys like Kevin Secours, Martin Wheeler, Alex Kostic, Sonny Puzikas, etc, and c) contact forum members Zero1(bjj blackbelt/systema practioner) and jellyman(former Vlad student, iirc, has one hell of a fashion sense!) for more pertinent, firsthand information.


Good luck!
2/10/12 1:38 PM
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MGT.........Thanks for sharing your views and the awesome advice! It is being implemented!

Keepem coming brothers, this thread is for all us, Martial Arts Lovers.

TTT
2/11/12 7:46 PM
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TTT
2/14/12 9:13 PM
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Hi brothers!


i read an article from Max Franz where he mentions that Systema is a lifestyle, where combat is only a portion of a whole. he mentions psychology, health, etc.

Can anyone develop this statement and provide examples please?

i am playing with it everyday and am liking it more and more. Its relaxing and fun!

TTT for your 2 cents
2/15/12 1:30 AM
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FightFan9260
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Sorry Seek to piggyback on this but I have recently found a nearby Systema school(hopefully still active) that I intend to check out. As I have mentioned in other threads, I am a blue belt in BJJ and am a police officer. I am now responsible for protection of celebrities, dignitaries and politicians(think smaller scale of what a Secret Service agent would do.)

Anyway, is Systema the way to go to supplement BJJ for this line of work? I have considered Karate and Silat in the past and am really motivated now because of my new assignment.

Thanks, BTW here is the school http://masystema.webs.com/

Anyone have any info on the school and/or instructor? I saw it mentioned on a police forum so I am sure he has been teaching or at least dealt with police officers in the past.

Thanks

2/15/12 4:39 PM
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Definitely go for it!


It's very special, I started training in 1995 and I do not know how I would have felt about systema had I started then.
2/29/12 10:21 AM
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Zero1
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I´am a BJJ Blackbelt and I train Systema for about 4 years so let me share my toughts.

Grappling / MMA is the simplest form of fighting and should ALWAYS trained before anything else. Boxing, Wrestling or Muay Thai is also good to get some foundation.

For me Systema is perfect and I wouldn´t say it is a style but a way of preparing body and mind.

However if you are not open and willing to change the way you move think and feel it will not work for you.

I doubt that it work for many people since most doesn´t have a background in basic martial arts like I said before.

But if you are open minded and understand what´s all about it gives you unlimited possibilities. Look at Vladimir these guy is more than amazing he is completly free in his movement.

I would compare it to what Ueshiba did or what Rickson does with his invisible Jiu Jitsu.

It´s an inner martial arts but to really use it you need some structure first.

2/29/12 5:24 PM
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thanks for your input!

I have a few questions please zero1


It is often recommended to train intuitively, but how about when you focus on a particular principle or technique? How can one focus on something in particular and be intuitive at the same time? Am I understanding this wrong?

How different is Vassiliev's systema from other systemas like Kadochnikov? Is it like BJJ, like the major part is similar but with slight differences depending on schools (like de la riva vs 10th planet vs alliance)?

Thank you very much for your precious time and help!


Seek from mma.tv
2/29/12 6:02 PM
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Zero1
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Train intuitivly is a good advice but it doesn´t help you if you don´t have this "feeling".

Basically Systema is about timing catching the wave of your opponent. Something comes at you and you just move with the attack rather against it.

Kadochnikov is perfect mechanic there is no Flow but perfect body mechanics. From what I understand Vlad learned Ross (which is kind of Kadochnikov style" and later changed into the soft style he has now.

My teacher trained for about 10 years with Vlad and was able to witness the change that happend.

The most important thing is to understand your own body mechanic and learn how to move naturally.
2/29/12 7:00 PM
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Again thank you so much zero1!

you seem to be very involved in systema. Who is your coach? Do you guys spend time studying the spirItual side of Ryabko's systema, things like hesychasm, etc...? Any recommendation?



Thank you fellow martial artist!

3/1/12 5:34 AM
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Zero1
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I train under Alex Kostic who is recently splitting from Vasiliev but he trained under him 12 or more years and lived in Toronto.

I´am not into Religion but the spiritual side of Systema is interesting too.

Basically it is the state of Flow where you are not attached to the outcome but fully into the moment.

As more you want to so things as less it will work.....
3/1/12 10:03 AM
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That's too bad that they're splitting. Hope it was a friendly separation as they seem to be very close.

Kostic looks like a good guy to hang around with. Does he have a school in Germany where he teaches regularly? I'd love to train with him one of these days.

3/1/12 10:17 AM
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Zero1
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I don´t know what happened and I don´t care. I still like the stuff Vlad is doing his movement is amazing.

Kostic is a down on earth guy. He lives in Serbia which is around 800-900 miles away from Germany so he is in my Gym twice a year.

3/1/12 10:44 AM
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Zero1

I hear you man!

What is Kostic's official website? I googled it but found nothing.

How do you roll in BJJ since you've started systema?

Do you go by instinct (systema style!), by applying BJJ principle and techniquess or a mix of both?



Thank you for sharing your experience man, it really is helpful!

ps: please don't loose against France again,I am surrounded by french fans and it's painful when they win : )
3/1/12 2:37 PM
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Here's Kostic' website and youtube channel:

http://www.homoludens-martialarts.com/

http://www.youtube.com/user/homoludensserbia


I'm guessing this is part of a seminar he gave. It's interesting stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qghUTyH_sy4
3/1/12 3:10 PM
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Awesome.....Thanks!!!
3/2/12 3:14 AM
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Zero1
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My groundgame has changed and I see amazing posibilities BUT it´s hardwork like the technical training too.

I had one of the best analytical BJJ teachers with Roy Harris so my mechanics are very good.

Right now I work on applying the feeling to BJJ positions.

It´s really interesting but you need good relaxation and feeling for your own body....

Here some stand up work (also it´s one year old and today looks a little stiff for me;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBtIi8Gj7V8&list=UUP4rzMxWz1ZlTTL1tW31G0A&index=21&feature=plcp

Here some groundwork from 2009:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Fhgxy0e5ZQ&list=UUP4rzMxWz1ZlTTL1tW31G0A&index=44&feature=plcp
3/29/12 8:11 PM
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Tang Dynasty
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There's not much "stress training" meaning that much waht I see is that everyone complies to the techniques. It snot like its brother style, Sambo, where there is resistance.
its like Aikido and Judo comparison.
But, if you really enjoy it, that's msot important!!
5/21/12 10:22 PM
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Shanks V3.1
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good thread...thanks Zero1 for the info.

just had a systema school open across the street from my shop, stopped in and talked to the guy today. he's a lee wedlake/vasiliev guy (obviously being from wedlake he's primarily kenpo, but is a legit systema instructor as well).

I've been looking for something besides bjj and boxing...this might just be the thing.
5/22/12 4:27 PM
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Zero1
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I just trained with Vladimir 2 days ago at a seminar and all I can say is. This man is on a completly different level. I was more than amazed......
5/23/12 2:16 PM
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Awesome Zero1

can you tell us what you guys worked on?
What differences are there between Kostic and Vladimir?
How do you see Systema now that you have trained with the 2012 version of vlad?



Thanks man!

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