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2/14/12 5:04 PM
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JitsuGuy
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Once I realized that the system of belief-based salvation was unfair after decades of believing it. Things started to crumble from under me. I then found out that the concept of freewill is not scriptural, which then lead me to the truth that hell is also not biblical.

Once you realize that a persons choice to believe or disbelieve is highly influenced by circumstances they have absolutely no control over such as where they are born, what family they're born into and the beliefs of that family, the time in history in which they are born, the length of their life etc... You will realize that belief-based-salvation system is an unfair mechanism for determining ones eternal well-being.

Just trying to help. Ask away if you have questions.
2/14/12 5:09 PM
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Ali
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Have you joined a non-mainstream church? Or a works-based salvation idea? Are you still committed to Biblical authority?

It seems you are the latter, unless you moved away from that, too.
2/14/12 5:21 PM
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JitsuGuy
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Ali - Have you joined a non-mainstream church? Or a works-based salvation idea? Are you still committed to Biblical authority?

It seems you are the latter, unless you moved away from that, too.


I very much believe in Biblical authority. My belief is that the commonly accepted principles of modern Christianity are inaccurate.

I haven't joined a church, but I do have church.
2/14/12 7:07 PM
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Ali
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What goes into salvation? I'm only asking because you said you see what it's not.

I have no idea what it means when you say you have church. If you want to leave it cryptic, that's ok. I just wonder if you see the need for a community of faith or if you see it as more private or individual now.

And I recognize I might be off in using the term "of faith" for what community may be relevant. Community of works. Community of understanding. Just community. I'm too unclear as to how you situate it to get the right words. Sorry.
2/14/12 7:54 PM
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Workman
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JitsuGuy - Once I realized that the system of belief-based salvation was unfair after decades of believing it. Things started to crumble from under me. I then found out that the concept of freewill is not scriptural, which then lead me to the truth that hell is also not biblical.

Once you realize that a persons choice to believe or disbelieve is highly influenced by circumstances they have absolutely no control over such as where they are born, what family they're born into and the beliefs of that family, the time in history in which they are born, the length of their life etc... You will realize that belief-based-salvation system is an unfair mechanism for determining ones eternal well-being.

Just trying to help. Ask away if you have questions.


JitsuGuy, since you are trying to help; I'd like to ask you some questions:

Is it possible that you did not actually 'Believe' to begin with?

And is it possible that 1 John 2:19 applies to you?

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." (1 John 2:19)
2/14/12 10:42 PM
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Ali
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Workman - 

JitsuGuy, since you are trying to help; I'd like to ask you some questions:

Is it possible that you did not actually 'Believe' to begin with?

And is it possible that 1 John 2:19 applies to you?

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." (1 John 2:19)


I'll let him correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems clear that he believes. Still believes. He just doesn't think belief is the key to salvation.

I'm curious as to what the new conception is.

Other things I"m curious to know, too, but I don't want to have too many questions in one post.
2/14/12 10:42 PM
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Ridgeback
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 The Parable of the Last Judgment clearly teaches that all people will be raised from the dead but not all people will be at home in the Kingdom of Heaven.  The measure is how people treated "the least of these" rather than what they claimed to believe.  And of course by treating the "least of these" as Jesus himself one is practicing the agape love that is at the heart of the Trinitarian life of God.  

In Eastern Orthodoxy we pray for all the dead, hope that all will be saved (although we can't say that they will), and never try to determine who is and isn't saved in this life.  The main thing is to focus on the fact that we are the ones who are in danger of hell.

As far as biblical authority goes, there came a time for me when I needed to find the Church that wrote the New Testament and put all the books of the Bible together in a canon.  The Bible without the interpretive community that created it is no more helpful than a book on jiu-jitsu would be without a qualified school to train in with real people teaching you and real people training with you.
2/14/12 11:12 PM
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JitsuGuy
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Ali - What goes into salvation? I'm only asking because you said you see what it's not.

I have no idea what it means when you say you have church. If you want to leave it cryptic, that's ok. I just wonder if you see the need for a community of faith or if you see it as more private or individual now.

And I recognize I might be off in using the term "of faith" for what community may be relevant. Community of works. Community of understanding. Just community. I'm too unclear as to how you situate it to get the right words. Sorry.


Believe what? I believe in Jesus Christ and that He is the Son of God. I've always believed that... What I do not believe is that our salvation is contingent upon our belief.

Ephesians 1:10
to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

There you have it... The grand plan and the final completion of God's will. ALL things reconciled to Him. All is a very simple word to understand.

Also, it should be noted that the apostles, the men closest to Jesus and his ministry said numerous times that he is the savior of the world, not just of believers but of the entire world.

John 4:42
They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world."


1st John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

As for what goes into salvation. Well, belief goes into salvation. But we are not believers due to our own understanding or own wise decision making. Freewill, when it comes to belief is not biblical. Show me a verse that says our decision to believe or not to believe is solely ours. I can show you many that clearly state belief is a gift and that nobody can come to God on their own. It's designed by God.

Philippians 1:19
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

This is why we cannot think highly of ourselves because we chose correctly. We can't even take credit for making the decision to believe. Heck scripture even backs that up.

Romans 12:3
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

There's just a few verses the show that belief comes from God. Belief is a gift, given to believers. Just read the verses I posted... Nobody comes to Christ without being drawn by God. God draws believers.

If you don't believe that, show me a verse that would contradict the ones I've mentioned and that states that the decision is solely ours. But I'll help you out, it's not in there.

As for church... That simply is the gathering together and the fellowship of believers. Where does Jesus command us to build a building explicitly designed for church? Did Jesus set out to build a building or did he set out to build the church (The body of believers)? You can have church anywhere. I haven't found where the necessity of a building and all the overhead it requires, is mentioned or commanded of us, in the bible. That's what I mean by not joining a church, but having church.


2/14/12 11:13 PM
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JitsuGuy
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I have more verses that support my ideas but I'll stop there for now.
2/14/12 11:47 PM
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gord96
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2/15/12 8:55 AM
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Workman
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JitsuGuy - 
Ali - What goes into salvation? I'm only asking because you said you see what it's not.

I have no idea what it means when you say you have church. If you want to leave it cryptic, that's ok. I just wonder if you see the need for a community of faith or if you see it as more private or individual now.

And I recognize I might be off in using the term "of faith" for what community may be relevant. Community of works. Community of understanding. Just community. I'm too unclear as to how you situate it to get the right words. Sorry.


Believe what? I believe in Jesus Christ and that He is the Son of God. I've always believed that... What I do not believe is that our salvation is contingent upon our belief.

Ephesians 1:10
to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

There you have it... The grand plan and the final completion of God's will. ALL things reconciled to Him. All is a very simple word to understand.

Also, it should be noted that the apostles, the men closest to Jesus and his ministry said numerous times that he is the savior of the world, not just of believers but of the entire world.

John 4:42
They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world."


1st John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

As for what goes into salvation. Well, belief goes into salvation. But we are not believers due to our own understanding or own wise decision making. Freewill, when it comes to belief is not biblical. Show me a verse that says our decision to believe or not to believe is solely ours. I can show you many that clearly state belief is a gift and that nobody can come to God on their own. It's designed by God.

Philippians 1:19
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

This is why we cannot think highly of ourselves because we chose correctly. We can't even take credit for making the decision to believe. Heck scripture even backs that up.

Romans 12:3
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

There's just a few verses the show that belief comes from God. Belief is a gift, given to believers. Just read the verses I posted... Nobody comes to Christ without being drawn by God. God draws believers.

If you don't believe that, show me a verse that would contradict the ones I've mentioned and that states that the decision is solely ours. But I'll help you out, it's not in there.

As for church... That simply is the gathering together and the fellowship of believers. Where does Jesus command us to build a building explicitly designed for church? Did Jesus set out to build a building or did he set out to build the church (The body of believers)? You can have church anywhere. I haven't found where the necessity of a building and all the overhead it requires, is mentioned or commanded of us, in the bible. That's what I mean by not joining a church, but having church.




Ali, I appreciate you attempting to answer my earlier post, but it based on JitsuGuy's above post, it is clear that you were incorrect.

According to 1 John 2:19, JitsuGuy never really 'Believed' to begin with.

As for you JitsuGuy; I do thank you for inviting us to engage you in order to better understand how you've come to your conclusions.

So I'd like to ask you how you reconcile such a vast amount of passages that so clearly state that Salvation is by Grace alone, and through Faith alone?
2/15/12 9:41 AM
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JitsuGuy
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gord96 - Hello JitsuGuy! While I agree that no one can believe without God allowing it, I don't see why you think this means that belief isn't part of salvation.

I'm glad you see the truths of scripture when it comes to God's sovereignty. Initial belief is a work of God and not ourselves. But to say belief is not a part of salvation is something I don't see coming from scripture. You mention Ephesians 1:10. I like to read the surrounding verses to bring it more into context.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."

(Ephesians 1:3-14)

Paul is talking to the believers in Ephesus about their salvation. On actual verse 1:10, everything will be brought under Christ. There will be no escaping it. For both believer and non believer. But their experiences will be quite different.

God bless.

edited to expand a bit more.


Regardless of audience, If I tell you, "everything" and/or tell someone else, "everything" does it somehow all the sudden no longer mean, "everything?"

Now if you believe that somehow hell is separation from Christ while at the same time reconciliation to Christ, I think that's a very fundamental conflict. To me, reconciled to Christ is exactly that. Where Christ becomes all in all as everything is reconciled to him.



2/15/12 9:58 AM
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JitsuGuy
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Workman - 
JitsuGuy - 
Ali - What goes into salvation? I'm only asking because you said you see what it's not.

I have no idea what it means when you say you have church. If you want to leave it cryptic, that's ok. I just wonder if you see the need for a community of faith or if you see it as more private or individual now.

And I recognize I might be off in using the term "of faith" for what community may be relevant. Community of works. Community of understanding. Just community. I'm too unclear as to how you situate it to get the right words. Sorry.


Believe what? I believe in Jesus Christ and that He is the Son of God. I've always believed that... What I do not believe is that our salvation is contingent upon our belief.

Ephesians 1:10
to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

There you have it... The grand plan and the final completion of God's will. ALL things reconciled to Him. All is a very simple word to understand.

Also, it should be noted that the apostles, the men closest to Jesus and his ministry said numerous times that he is the savior of the world, not just of believers but of the entire world.

John 4:42
They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world."


1st John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

As for what goes into salvation. Well, belief goes into salvation. But we are not believers due to our own understanding or own wise decision making. Freewill, when it comes to belief is not biblical. Show me a verse that says our decision to believe or not to believe is solely ours. I can show you many that clearly state belief is a gift and that nobody can come to God on their own. It's designed by God.

Philippians 1:19
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

This is why we cannot think highly of ourselves because we chose correctly. We can't even take credit for making the decision to believe. Heck scripture even backs that up.

Romans 12:3
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

There's just a few verses the show that belief comes from God. Belief is a gift, given to believers. Just read the verses I posted... Nobody comes to Christ without being drawn by God. God draws believers.

If you don't believe that, show me a verse that would contradict the ones I've mentioned and that states that the decision is solely ours. But I'll help you out, it's not in there.

As for church... That simply is the gathering together and the fellowship of believers. Where does Jesus command us to build a building explicitly designed for church? Did Jesus set out to build a building or did he set out to build the church (The body of believers)? You can have church anywhere. I haven't found where the necessity of a building and all the overhead it requires, is mentioned or commanded of us, in the bible. That's what I mean by not joining a church, but having church.




Ali, I appreciate you attempting to answer my earlier post, but it based on JitsuGuy's above post, it is clear that you were incorrect.

According to 1 John 2:19, JitsuGuy never really 'Believed' to begin with.

As for you JitsuGuy; I do thank you for inviting us to engage you in order to better understand how you've come to your conclusions.

So I'd like to ask you how you reconcile such a vast amount of passages that so clearly state that Salvation is by Grace alone, and through Faith alone?



You think I never believed to begin with? Am I to believe in Jesus Christ as my lord and Savior to attain salvation or am I to believe that belief in Jesus Christ as my lord an Savior grants me salvation?

I think you're confused. I've been a believer for a very long time and you know nothing about that. However, you're free to assume whatever you like about my belief. But I'm comfortable where I'm at and God knows my heart.

We are saved by grace through faith.

Ephesians 2:8,9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast.

The problem many create with that verse is they believe it is our faith that saves us. But that is incorrect. Look at Galatians 2:16 and 2:20. Be sure to read the King James Version however.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the FAITH OF CHRIST, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

If you read other versions of that same passage you will read "faith in Christ." The simple mistranslation of the words "of" and "in" change the meaning of those verses and many biblical principles completely! We are saved, not by our faith but the FAITH OF CHRIST. This runs in tandem with what the rest of the bible teaches, especially Ephesians 2:8,9. Now you see how that verse says it is not of ourselves, because it's not even our faith it's referring to there and Galatians (translated correctly) backs this up.



Now let me ask you a question. Are we saved by grace or not? I'd assume your answer is yes based on your previous comment about "salvation by grace alone" and "by faith alone."

What then is grace? Is grace earned? Why, based on the mainstream churches teachings, is grace only extended to believers? What happens to the grace for unbelievers? Where did it go? This, on a very basic level of understanding makes grace, "reward." But the bible calls it grace. So, how can it be grace if we must earn it? Why is it only extended to believers? For if that truly is the case, it is not grace. It is reward.

My bible tells me, though, that is is grace.

Why? Because...

1st Timothy 4:10
and for this we labor and strive, that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

What does that say there? Savior of ALL men. We've totally tarnished the work of Christ with all this modern "theology." Salvation is spoken of clearly in the bible. You don't earn it and you certainly don't even believe upon it on your own.
2/15/12 11:03 AM
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gord96
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....
2/15/12 11:13 AM
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JitsuGuy
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gord96 - 
JitsuGuy - 
Now if you believe that somehow hell is separation from Christ while at the same time reconciliation to Christ, I think that's a very fundamental conflict.


I don't think that hell is separation from Christ at all.

Hell is eternity in the presence of God without a mediator.

Heaven is eternity in the presence of God, with a mediator.


I could agree with that if hell were in the bible. But it isn't.

You have to jump through all kinds of loops to really get "hell" out of the bible. It simply isn't there. It is clearly not there in simple terms. Jesus clearly did not say, "There is a place of horrendous torments that you will endure forever if you do not believe." We get the idea of "hell" from very sketchy wording.

I would think that a just and kind God would want us to know FOR SURE that this place exists. But to derive its existence from what people derive it from is a stretch to any real thinker on the issue.

Hell doesn't exist, man.
2/15/12 11:23 AM
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gord96
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....
2/15/12 11:27 AM
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JitsuGuy
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gord96 - Hell as people commonly think of it does not exist. There is Hell, but there isn't a place called Hell. Hell will be the condition of the soul of those that hate God.


Well, I don't see that in scripture and I think that's making a stretch to say the last. I think the bible is more vague on the issue of eternity than most folks believe they have a firm grasp on it.
2/15/12 12:37 PM
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gord96
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2/15/12 1:03 PM
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JitsuGuy
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gord96 - Interesting to talk about nonetheless! :)

On your other points.

What then is grace? Is grace earned? Why, based on the mainstream churches teachings, is grace only extended to believers? What happens to the grace for unbelievers? Where did it go? This, on a very basic level of understanding makes grace, "reward." But the bible calls it grace. So, how can it be grace if we must earn it? Why is it only extended to believers? For if that truly is the case, it is not grace. It is reward.


Who said we earned grace? Grace is something God given. God gives his grace to those he wants. It has nothing to do with a human work.

"15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

Romans 9:15-16

It's all up to God as you said. Why is Grace extended only to believers? I think Romans answers that too.

"21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"


1st Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

Acts 3:21
He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Colossians 1:20
and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

John 12:32
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 12:47
As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. (belief based salvation combined with this verse and John 3:17 makes Jesus a failure).
2/15/12 1:09 PM
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JitsuGuy
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Let me touch on this verse specifically.

1st Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

What belief-based salvation does here is make the actions of Adam more powerful than Jesus'.

It's simple. Whether we believed in actions of Adam or not, we are all to taste death. Yet, when it comes to Jesus, one must also believe in order to benefit.

So, why do we die, regardless of our belief in Adam and his actions yet with Christ, he will give us life, but only if we believe? Why couldn't he just give us life as Adam gave us death?

The answer is simple, he could have done that, he is after all, God. And guess what, he did do that.

1st Corinthians 15:22 is clear. Nothing is mentioned about belief. We are all made alive just as we were all going to die.
2/15/12 1:17 PM
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JitsuGuy
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JitsuGuy - Now, here I'll lay out the fundamental problems with freewill and hell and the very common phrase said by many Christians, "God doesn't send people to hell, we send ourselves there."

First, if you've seen any of the Saw movies, you should know who Jigsaw it. I would suggest, that to believe in belief based salvation, God ultimately is the one sending people to hell and is in a sense just like Jigsaw.

If I build a maze, put a mouse trap at one end and cheese at the other and then place the mouse in the maze and the mouse chooses the mouse trap. Did I contribute to the mouse's demise? I would say, I most certainly did. This illustration doesn't create near the number of problems as the one you and I are living in does. For example. God created the mouse (you and I) and forced it to abide by his rules. On top of that, he created the mouse knowing exactly which decision the mouse the make. He created the ones that damned themselves (forever mind you) even when he knew they would. This game of life is his maze. These are his rules. And you don't believe (if you believe in belief-based salvation) he's not sitting back and enjoying the entertainment? What's the purpose in forcing a being into an existence you know will be primarily full of hell and torment? And this God is the one you all believe loves you?

Is that love? Is that compassion? Is that responsible?

And you can't understand why people don't flock to your version of Christianity?

Freewill is a myth. If it were real... It would be a rope that God would give humanity whether they were capable or not. He would give that rope to those that are incapable of handling it and damn themselves for all eternity, when he KNOWS they will.

And you're telling others that God is love?

You have no idea what you're preaching. It certainly isn't love.

I can't give a child a loaded gun without being irresponsible, uncaring and acting without love. And I don't even know if the child is going to hurt themselves.

But when God does it, it's somehow all okay....

Yeah, right... Think about it.
2/15/12 1:42 PM
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gord96
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Edited: 02/23/12 2:46 PM
Member Since: 3/26/03
Posts: 13899
...
2/15/12 1:52 PM
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JitsuGuy
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I did not come to judge the world refers to Jesus' first coming, for he will come to judge the world when he returns.


What if he already returned? ;-)
2/15/12 10:30 PM
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Workman
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JitsuGuy,

I don’t think that you believed to begin with, simply because it is illogical to leave or stop believing something when you say that you really believed, only to stop believing and begin believing something else.

And if currently you espouse to a belief in faith plus works; according to the scriptures, you certainly are not a True Believer.

As for your point regarding faith; that is a point of agreement, as I completely agree that a person is not saved by their own faith.

After all, if you’ve understood Ephesians 2:8; the passage does say “through faith”, which establishes that faith onto itself is meaningless, and requires an object of that faith, which in this case is obviously who Christ Jesus is, and what He did to save sinners.

And yes, a sinner is indeed saved by grace.

Grace is a gift, it is getting something you don’t deserve, and a gift cannot be earned.

All are offered grace, but not all receive it.

The Bible makes a contrast of this point in John 1:11 & 12:

REJECTION:
“He came unto his own, and his own received him not.” (verse 11)

RECEPTION:
“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:” (verse 12)

As well, notice that in verse 12, those who were saved were done so through believing and receiving, and not through works.

And to tie this point back to Ephesians 2:8; notice that the following passage says:

“Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

It doesn’t say that salvation always comes through works, or sometimes through works, but rather, not of works, periord.

And yes, Christ Jesus certainly is the Savior of ALL men who BELIEVE, period.
2/15/12 10:53 PM
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JitsuGuy
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Posts: 7865
Workman - JitsuGuy,

I don’t think that you believed to begin with, simply because it is illogical to leave or stop believing something when you say that you really believed, only to stop believing and begin believing something else.

And if currently you espouse to a belief in faith plus works; according to the scriptures, you certainly are not a True Believer.

As for your point regarding faith; that is a point of agreement, as I completely agree that a person is not saved by their own faith.

After all, if you’ve understood Ephesians 2:8; the passage does say “through faith”, which establishes that faith onto itself is meaningless, and requires an object of that faith, which in this case is obviously who Christ Jesus is, and what He did to save sinners.

And yes, a sinner is indeed saved by grace.

Grace is a gift, it is getting something you don’t deserve, and a gift cannot be earned.

All are offered grace, but not all receive it.

The Bible makes a contrast of this point in John 1:11 & 12:

REJECTION:
“He came unto his own, and his own received him not.” (verse 11)

RECEPTION:
“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:” (verse 12)

As well, notice that in verse 12, those who were saved were done so through believing and receiving, and not through works.

And to tie this point back to Ephesians 2:8; notice that the following passage says:

“Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

It doesn’t say that salvation always comes through works, or sometimes through works, but rather, not of works, periord.

And yes, Christ Jesus certainly is the Savior of ALL men who BELIEVE, period.


Where in the world did you get I espouse to faith plus works? I really don't care if you think I'm a "true believer" or not. Based on my bible, I'm a believer.

I'm not the one that thinks we can save ourselves by choosing correctly and adding to the perfect sacrifice Jesus made. What percentage do you believe we play a part in when it comes to our own salvation? How much did Jesus left undone? How many percentage points do you get for making the right choice? Because that's what you believe. That salvation is a combination of Jesus sacrifice and then you choosing correctly.

We're all saved bro, You added the "believe" part. I quoted many verses that do NOT say only believers are saved... You conveniently skipped over them.

Here's what 1st Timothy 4:10 says.
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Fundamentalists like to make the "especially" have a meaning of "exclusivity" but that is clearly not what the verse says... This verse along with the others I mentioned show that all are saved. And I'm still confused where you get the works part. Because that is certainly not anything that I've said.

All receive grace, whether they believe or not. For if it is only extended to believers and disappears for unbelievers, it clearly is not grace but reward.

As for the scriptures you mentioned. Here's the main verse that fundamental Christianity has missed.

Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Jesus was only commissioned for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He even told the disciples to not go to the gentiles but only to the house of Israel.

Look at every single person he's talking to when he speaks about belief or speaks of threats. Every single time he is talking to and old covenant Israelite. You're taking everything he said, that was meant for a specific people at a specific time and trying to apply it to everyone. It doesn't work. On top of that, old covenant Jews were not interested in eternity, they only wanted to know how to become a part of the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom. They were not asking him about eternity. So you're applying his rules, for those people, and for the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom and then trying to apply it to all of creation and all of eternity.

It screws up everything.

The mainstream, fundamental church is so far off the mark, they're wallowing in a state of confusion and don't know it.

Sad.

Just trying to help.
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