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HolyGround >> I Defected From the Mainstream Church


2/15/12 11:10 PM
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Workman
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Hey JitsuGuy,

It's very simple; if you don't ascribe to God's Word, which declares that a person is Saved through Faith, then the only alternative, is that a person can be Saved without faith in Christ Jesus.

In that scenario, one would have to conclude (falsely) that a person is saved on the merits of their own works, and the scriptures makes it clear that no flesh shall be justified in His sight (Romans 3:20).
2/15/12 11:17 PM
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JitsuGuy
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Workman - Hey JitsuGuy,

It's very simple; if you don't ascribe to God's Word, which declares that a person is Saved through Faith, then the only alternative, is that a person can be Saved without faith in Christ Jesus.

In that scenario, one would have to conclude (falsely) that a person is saved on the merits of their own works, and the scriptures makes it clear that no flesh shall be justified in His sight (Romans 3:20).



I do ascribe that we are saved through faith... Through the faith of Christ. I dedicated a majority of a post on it. We are saved by grace (God's grace) through faith (Christ's faith) IT IS NOT OF OURSELVES, LESS ANYONE SHOULD BOAST.

It can't be anymore clear than that.
2/15/12 11:26 PM
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Workman
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JitsuGuy - 
Workman - Hey JitsuGuy,

It's very simple; if you don't ascribe to God's Word, which declares that a person is Saved through Faith, then the only alternative, is that a person can be Saved without faith in Christ Jesus.

In that scenario, one would have to conclude (falsely) that a person is saved on the merits of their own works, and the scriptures makes it clear that no flesh shall be justified in His sight (Romans 3:20).



I do ascribe that we are saved through faith... Through the faith of Christ. I dedicated a majority of a post on it. We are saved by grace (God's grace) through faith (Christ's faith) IT IS NOT OF OURSELVES, LESS ANYONE SHOULD BOAST.

It can't be anymore clear than that.


You have not addressed the contrast between those who receive & believe, versus those who do not receive as illustrated in John 1:11 & 12:

REJECTION:
“He came unto his own, and his own received him not.” (verse 11)

RECEPTION:
“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:” (verse 12)

What happened to those who rejected? And how does it differ to those who received?

Can we deal with one point at a time starting with my question here regarding John 1 before we proceed?
2/15/12 11:32 PM
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JitsuGuy
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I addressed it with Matt 15:24.

His own were the Jews for that time, not for everyone for all time. They received him not. Again, this is not talking about all of creation.

What happened to those that rejected him? They rejected him. The verse isn't implying any eternal damnation because of the rejection. It's simply stating an observation that he was not accepted by many of His own.

To those that believed, they became the Sons of God. What does becoming the Sons of God mean to you?
2/15/12 11:33 PM
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Ali
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JitsuGuy - Once I realized that the system of belief-based salvation was unfair after decades of believing it. Things started to crumble from under me...

Once you realize that a persons choice to believe or disbelieve is highly influenced by circumstances they have absolutely no control over such as where they are born, what family they're born into and the beliefs of that family, the time in history in which they are born, the length of their life etc... You will realize that belief-based-salvation system is an unfair mechanism for determining ones eternal well-being.

Just trying to help. Ask away if you have questions.


I'm curious about why you retain belief in Biblical authority at all, given your first insight. Belief in scripture as a guide to what is salvific, or belief that it's necessary to be saved (etc. etc.) is still just as dependent on on where you are born, what family, etc.

I'm not saying any of that is a basis for disbelief, either, mind you (so not being argumentative); I'm just trying to understand where the limits on the original insight are.
2/15/12 11:39 PM
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JitsuGuy
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Ali - 
JitsuGuy - Once I realized that the system of belief-based salvation was unfair after decades of believing it. Things started to crumble from under me...

Once you realize that a persons choice to believe or disbelieve is highly influenced by circumstances they have absolutely no control over such as where they are born, what family they're born into and the beliefs of that family, the time in history in which they are born, the length of their life etc... You will realize that belief-based-salvation system is an unfair mechanism for determining ones eternal well-being.

Just trying to help. Ask away if you have questions.


I'm curious about why you retain belief in Biblical authority at all, given your first insight. Belief in scripture as a guide to what is salvific, or belief that it's necessary to be saved (etc. etc.) is still just as dependent on on where you are born, what family, etc.

I'm not saying any of that is a basis for disbelief, either, mind you (so not being argumentative); I'm just trying to understand where the limits on the original insight are.


I believe the Bible to be true. It's the story of the world's savior and I believe it's documented and backed up historically. So it's difficult to dismiss it as just a book of fiction and fairy tales.

I just believe many of the pillars of modern theology being taught are incorrect when rightly dividing the scriptures.

Is that what you were asking?
2/15/12 11:47 PM
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Workman
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JitsuGuy - I addressed it with Matt 15:24.

His own were the Jews for that time, not for everyone for all time. They received him not. Again, this is not talking about all of creation.

What happened to those that rejected him? They rejected him. The verse isn't implying any eternal damnation because of the rejection. It's simply stating an observation that he was not accepted by many of His own.

To those that believed, they became the Sons of God. What does becoming the Sons of God mean to you?


Considering that Matthew's gospel is the Word of God, I obviously don't have any problems that you are referring to his book to provide me with an answer.

However, I must admit that it seems as though you are proof-texting.

In any event, I do believe that John's gospel is quite sufficient to provide me with answer answer to my simple questions, and after I present the answers, I'm sure it will be quite obvious as to why you would choose to ignore John's gospel, instead choosing to take a passage in Matthew out of context.

In order to see the kingdom of God, Jesus said that a person must be born again (John 3:3).

How is a person born again? Other than John 1:12, John 3:15, 16, 18, & 36 declare that a person must BELIEVE.

EXAMPLE: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

With emphasis on, "...he that BELIEVETH NOT the Son SHALL NOT SEE LIFE; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
2/15/12 11:53 PM
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JitsuGuy
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Workman - 
JitsuGuy - I addressed it with Matt 15:24.

His own were the Jews for that time, not for everyone for all time. They received him not. Again, this is not talking about all of creation.

What happened to those that rejected him? They rejected him. The verse isn't implying any eternal damnation because of the rejection. It's simply stating an observation that he was not accepted by many of His own.

To those that believed, they became the Sons of God. What does becoming the Sons of God mean to you?


Considering that Matthew's gospel is the Word of God, I obviously don't have any problems that you are referring to his book to provide me with an answer.

However, I must admit that it seems as though you are proof-texting.

In any event, I do believe that John's gospel is quite sufficient to provide me with answer answer to my simple questions, and after I present the answers, I'm sure it will be quite obvious as to why you would choose to ignore John's gospel, instead choosing to take a passage in Matthew out of context.

In order to see the kingdom of God, Jesus said that a person must be born again (John 3:3).

How is a person born again? Other than John 1:12, John 3:15, 16, 18, & 36 declare that a person must BELIEVE.

EXAMPLE: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

With emphasis on, "...he that BELIEVETH NOT the Son SHALL NOT SEE LIFE; but the wrath of God abideth on him."


Again, the Kingdom of God is not eternity. It is the 1000 year Millennial kingdom. This is what they were asking him about. They weren't asking him about what's going to happen to them for all eternity. They specifically wanted to know how to be a part of the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom.


2/16/12 12:01 AM
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Ali
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JitsuGuy - ...I believe it's documented and backed up historically. ....

Is that what you were asking?


I suppose it is. Thank you for taking the time to answer.
2/16/12 12:12 AM
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Workman
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JitsuGuy - 
Workman - 
JitsuGuy - I addressed it with Matt 15:24.

His own were the Jews for that time, not for everyone for all time. They received him not. Again, this is not talking about all of creation.

What happened to those that rejected him? They rejected him. The verse isn't implying any eternal damnation because of the rejection. It's simply stating an observation that he was not accepted by many of His own.

To those that believed, they became the Sons of God. What does becoming the Sons of God mean to you?


Considering that Matthew's gospel is the Word of God, I obviously don't have any problems that you are referring to his book to provide me with an answer.

However, I must admit that it seems as though you are proof-texting.

In any event, I do believe that John's gospel is quite sufficient to provide me with answer answer to my simple questions, and after I present the answers, I'm sure it will be quite obvious as to why you would choose to ignore John's gospel, instead choosing to take a passage in Matthew out of context.

In order to see the kingdom of God, Jesus said that a person must be born again (John 3:3).

How is a person born again? Other than John 1:12, John 3:15, 16, 18, & 36 declare that a person must BELIEVE.

EXAMPLE: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

With emphasis on, "...he that BELIEVETH NOT the Son SHALL NOT SEE LIFE; but the wrath of God abideth on him."


Again, the Kingdom of God is not eternity. It is the 1000 year Millennial kingdom. This is what they were asking him about. They weren't asking him about what's going to happen to them for all eternity. They specifically wanted to know how to be a part of the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom.




So what you are saying is that you have no such compunction about twisting Matthew 15:24 in order to conform it to your heretical doctrine of universalism, in spite of the fact that countless passages make it abundantly clear that one must believe in order to be Justified?
2/16/12 12:30 AM
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JitsuGuy
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Workman - 
JitsuGuy - 
Workman - 
JitsuGuy - I addressed it with Matt 15:24.

His own were the Jews for that time, not for everyone for all time. They received him not. Again, this is not talking about all of creation.

What happened to those that rejected him? They rejected him. The verse isn't implying any eternal damnation because of the rejection. It's simply stating an observation that he was not accepted by many of His own.

To those that believed, they became the Sons of God. What does becoming the Sons of God mean to you?


Considering that Matthew's gospel is the Word of God, I obviously don't have any problems that you are referring to his book to provide me with an answer.

However, I must admit that it seems as though you are proof-texting.

In any event, I do believe that John's gospel is quite sufficient to provide me with answer answer to my simple questions, and after I present the answers, I'm sure it will be quite obvious as to why you would choose to ignore John's gospel, instead choosing to take a passage in Matthew out of context.

In order to see the kingdom of God, Jesus said that a person must be born again (John 3:3).

How is a person born again? Other than John 1:12, John 3:15, 16, 18, & 36 declare that a person must BELIEVE.

EXAMPLE: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

With emphasis on, "...he that BELIEVETH NOT the Son SHALL NOT SEE LIFE; but the wrath of God abideth on him."


Again, the Kingdom of God is not eternity. It is the 1000 year Millennial kingdom. This is what they were asking him about. They weren't asking him about what's going to happen to them for all eternity. They specifically wanted to know how to be a part of the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom.




So what you are saying is that you have no such compunction about twisting Matthew 15:24 in order to conform it to your heretical doctrine of universalism, in spite of the fact that countless passages make it abundantly clear that one must believe in order to be Justified?


Yes, I'm a heretic. It's not a new label for me.

Listen, it makes sense. I've listed verses that clearly state all are saved. You try to add to that, that it's speaking of believers, but these verses do not say anything about believers.

Belief-based salvation is not just. It simply isn't. We are born into circumstances outside our control, you act like belief is equally attainable for all. It simply isn't. For some, it would be easier to live a life of solitude in the desert than to just flip a switch based on their level of understanding, to believe.

I'm sorry you think I'm a heretic, but I'm genuinely and sincerely trying to make sense of all of this. To me, and how you get what you get out of scripture does not make sense.

I'm not twisting Matthew 24:15 at all. I'm just reading it! That's what it says! That's what Jesus said. He never said, "Take what I say and apply it to everyone for all time when it comes to your eternal salvation." In fact, he said the contrary when he said he only commissioned but for the lost sheep of Israel. He was to get them back on the right track and it does not have to do with the rest of us and all of eternity. It can't! Ephesians 1:10 backs that up!

So, what do you say about verses like 1 Corinthians 15:22, and 1 Timothy 4:10? You're the one that twists those verses to convey that they are referring to believers only, even though, they explicitly DO NOT say that!

And I'm a heretic?
2/16/12 12:36 AM
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JitsuGuy
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The apostles themselves said Jesus is the savior of the world and not just once!

What in the world are we to get from that? Why am I the one twisting scripture? That's what the apostles said, in their own words! They lived with Jesus. They preached with him. They said he was the savior of the world! Numerous times!

ohn 4:42
They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world."

1st John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Are you not aware of the problems this presents with people who only think believers are saved? It's a direct contradiction to these verses alone!

Seriously. How does that make any sense?

This is why I cannot embrace modern, mainstream theology. IT DOES NOT ADD UP! I'm sorry, but it just doesn't.
2/16/12 12:36 AM
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Workman
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JitsuGuy - 
Workman - 
JitsuGuy - 
Workman - 
JitsuGuy - I addressed it with Matt 15:24.

His own were the Jews for that time, not for everyone for all time. They received him not. Again, this is not talking about all of creation.

What happened to those that rejected him? They rejected him. The verse isn't implying any eternal damnation because of the rejection. It's simply stating an observation that he was not accepted by many of His own.

To those that believed, they became the Sons of God. What does becoming the Sons of God mean to you?


Considering that Matthew's gospel is the Word of God, I obviously don't have any problems that you are referring to his book to provide me with an answer.

You haven't answered my question; how is a person Justified?

However, I must admit that it seems as though you are proof-texting.

In any event, I do believe that John's gospel is quite sufficient to provide me with answer answer to my simple questions, and after I present the answers, I'm sure it will be quite obvious as to why you would choose to ignore John's gospel, instead choosing to take a passage in Matthew out of context.

In order to see the kingdom of God, Jesus said that a person must be born again (John 3:3).

How is a person born again? Other than John 1:12, John 3:15, 16, 18, & 36 declare that a person must BELIEVE.

EXAMPLE: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

With emphasis on, "...he that BELIEVETH NOT the Son SHALL NOT SEE LIFE; but the wrath of God abideth on him."


Again, the Kingdom of God is not eternity. It is the 1000 year Millennial kingdom. This is what they were asking him about. They weren't asking him about what's going to happen to them for all eternity. They specifically wanted to know how to be a part of the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom.




So what you are saying is that you have no such compunction about twisting Matthew 15:24 in order to conform it to your heretical doctrine of universalism, in spite of the fact that countless passages make it abundantly clear that one must believe in order to be Justified?


Yes, I'm a heretic. It's not a new label for me.

Listen, it makes sense. I've listed verses that clearly state all are saved. You try to add to that, that it's speaking of believers, but these verses do not say anything about believers.

Belief-based salvation is not just. It simply isn't. We are born into circumstances outside our control, you act like belief is equally attainable for all. It simply isn't. For some, it would be easier to live a life of solitude in the desert than to just flip a switch based on their level of understanding, to believe.

I'm sorry you think I'm a heretic, but I'm genuinely and sincerely trying to make sense of all of this. To me, and how you get what you get out of scripture does not make sense.

I'm not twisting Matthew 24:15 at all. I'm just reading it! That's what it says! That's what Jesus said. He never said, "Take what I say and apply it to everyone for all time when it comes to your eternal salvation." In fact, he said the contrary when he said he only commissioned but for the lost sheep of Israel. He was to get them back on the right track and it does not have to do with the rest of us and all of eternity. It can't! Ephesians 1:10 backs that up!

So, what do you say about verses like 1 Corinthians 15:22, and 1 Timothy 4:10? You're the one that twists those verses to convey that they are referring to believers only, even though, they explicitly DO NOT say that!

And I'm a heretic?

2/16/12 12:56 AM
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Workman
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JitsuGuy, sorry about the last post.

My question for you is; why haven't you answered my previous question?

How is a person Justified?
2/16/12 2:13 AM
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yusul
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JitsuGuy - The apostles themselves said Jesus is the savior of the world and not just once!

What in the world are we to get from that? Why am I the one twisting scripture? That's what the apostles said, in their own words! They lived with Jesus. They preached with him. They said he was the savior of the world! Numerous times!

ohn 4:42
They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world."

1st John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Are you not aware of the problems this presents with people who only think believers are saved? It's a direct contradiction to these verses alone!

Seriously. How does that make any sense?

This is why I cannot embrace modern, mainstream theology. IT DOES NOT ADD UP! I'm sorry, but it just doesn't.


i don't want to seem like i'm ganging up on you, so i'll make this point brief and it will be my only post on this thread, because it seems like you don't see it.

Jesus came to offer salvation to the whole world, and if the whole world (theoretically) accepted the gospel then the whole world would be saved.

in other words, those passages referenced mean that Jesus came to save the whole world, but no where does it guarantee that the whole world would actually be saved. if everyone is saved, then there's inconsistency with passages describing a murder's conscience driving him to hell, mentioning that a sinning body part should be cast into hell, stating that one should fear God who can destroy both body and soul in hell, etc. there actually shouldn't be a mention of hell as a final destination is everyone is saved.
2/16/12 9:48 AM
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JitsuGuy
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Workman - JitsuGuy, sorry about the last post.

My question for you is; why haven't you answered my previous question?

How is a person Justified?


I'd say a person is justified by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We can take no credit for our own justification.
2/16/12 9:54 AM
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JitsuGuy
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yusul - 
JitsuGuy - The apostles themselves said Jesus is the savior of the world and not just once!

What in the world are we to get from that? Why am I the one twisting scripture? That's what the apostles said, in their own words! They lived with Jesus. They preached with him. They said he was the savior of the world! Numerous times!

ohn 4:42
They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world."

1st John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Are you not aware of the problems this presents with people who only think believers are saved? It's a direct contradiction to these verses alone!

Seriously. How does that make any sense?

This is why I cannot embrace modern, mainstream theology. IT DOES NOT ADD UP! I'm sorry, but it just doesn't.


i don't want to seem like i'm ganging up on you, so i'll make this point brief and it will be my only post on this thread, because it seems like you don't see it.

Jesus came to offer salvation to the whole world, and if the whole world (theoretically) accepted the gospel then the whole world would be saved.

in other words, those passages referenced mean that Jesus came to save the whole world, but no where does it guarantee that the whole world would actually be saved. if everyone is saved, then there's inconsistency with passages describing a murder's conscience driving him to hell, mentioning that a sinning body part should be cast into hell, stating that one should fear God who can destroy both body and soul in hell, etc. there actually shouldn't be a mention of hell as a final destination is everyone is saved.


Sure, you're free to believe that, but that clearly is not what those verses say.

And Hell isn't in the bible. It's in the English version due to mis-interpretation.

The words we derive "hell" from are "Gehenna" and "hades." Gehenna is a place just outside Jerusalem also known as the Valley of Hinnom. Hades is a state of unperception. It's anything in this universe that escapes our 5 senses. This is why Jesus referred to those that are dead as being asleep as when you're asleep you're unaware of your surroundings. This is also backed up by

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten

You see, the dead are experiencing "hades." They know nothing.

2/16/12 10:03 AM
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JitsuGuy
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Genna was a physical place and it's exactly what Jesus was referring to.

Explain this to me...

Hierousalem = Jerusalem
Kapharnaoum = Capernaum
Nazaret = Nazareth
Bethania = Bethany
Ephesion = Ephesus
Bethleem = Bethlehem
Bethsaida = Bethsaida
Kappodokia = Cappadocia
Beroia = Berea
Gomorra = Gomorrah
Galilaia = Galilee
Damaskos = Damascus
Geenna = Hell (should be Gehenna)

What? Geenna was a physical place just as all those other places mentioned. Yet instead of translating it into its English counterpart they interpret (big difference between translation and interpretation I might add) into hell? Huh? That doesn't make any sense.

Systematic translation, FAIL!

2/16/12 10:15 AM
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Workman
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JitsuGuy - 
Workman - JitsuGuy, sorry about the last post.

My question for you is; why haven't you answered my previous question?

How is a person Justified?


I'd say a person is justified by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We can take no credit for our own justification.


Don't get defensive; nobody said anything about taking credit for their own justification, of which I agree.

However, what is so painfully obvious here, is that you can't possibly be as sincere as you have portrayed yourself to be during this conversation. And you are really making my case, since you have completely floundered on providing me with a biblical answer to my very basic question. This makes it seem as though you are doing what you like to accuse others of; ignoring passages that refute your false doctrine.

Lets try again...

According to Romans 3:28; how is a person Justified?
2/16/12 10:47 AM
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JitsuGuy
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Workman - 
JitsuGuy - 
Workman - JitsuGuy, sorry about the last post.

My question for you is; why haven't you answered my previous question?

How is a person Justified?


I'd say a person is justified by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We can take no credit for our own justification.


Don't get defensive; nobody said anything about taking credit for their own justification, of which I agree.

However, what is so painfully obvious here, is that you can't possibly be as sincere as you have portrayed yourself to be during this conversation. And you are really making my case, since you have completely floundered on providing me with a biblical answer to my very basic question. This makes it seem as though you are doing what you like to accuse others of; ignoring passages that refute your false doctrine.

Lets try again...

According to Romans 3:28; how is a person Justified?


I already answered your question numerous times in this thread.

So, tell me, how do you make sense of those verses that say the world is saved when you believe one must believe to be saved? How also, do you justify the belief-based system when it is obviously unfair? How can one person be born into a believing household and another born into an unbelieving household? One gets salvation by doing what's status-quo for the family and the other has to swim up-stream to become a believer.

How can you possibly embrace something that is so obviously unfair and yet it is the mechanism that determines everyone's eternal destiny.

How can you also believe in freewill when I've listed verse after verse that that we do not choose to become believers on our own?


2/16/12 11:01 AM
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Workman
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JitsuGuy - 
Workman - 
JitsuGuy - 
Workman - JitsuGuy, sorry about the last post.

My question for you is; why haven't you answered my previous question?

How is a person Justified?


I'd say a person is justified by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We can take no credit for our own justification.


Don't get defensive; nobody said anything about taking credit for their own justification, of which I agree.

However, what is so painfully obvious here, is that you can't possibly be as sincere as you have portrayed yourself to be during this conversation. And you are really making my case, since you have completely floundered on providing me with a biblical answer to my very basic question. This makes it seem as though you are doing what you like to accuse others of; ignoring passages that refute your false doctrine.

Lets try again...

According to Romans 3:28; how is a person Justified?


I already answered your question numerous times in this thread.

So, tell me, how do you make sense of those verses that say the world is saved when you believe one must believe to be saved? How also, do you justify the belief-based system when it is obviously unfair? How can one person be born into a believing household and another born into an unbelieving household? One gets salvation by doing what's status-quo for the family and the other has to swim up-stream to become a believer.

How can you possibly embrace something that is so obviously unfair and yet it is the mechanism that determines everyone's eternal destiny.

How can you also believe in freewill when I've listed verse after verse that that we do not choose to become believers on our own?




JitsuGuy,

I must have missed it, or perhaps you provided me with an unbiblical opinion rooted in human wisdom, and I quickly glossed over it.

Why are you having problems answering a simple question? Is there a fear that by answering, it will destroy the foundation of your false doctrine?

According to Romans 3:28; how is a person Justified?


2/16/12 11:15 AM
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JitsuGuy
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Workman - JitsuGuy, sorry about the last post.

My question for you is; why haven't you answered my previous question?

How is a person Justified?


I'd say a person is justified by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We can take no credit for our own justification.


Don't get defensive; nobody said anything about taking credit for their own justification, of which I agree.

However, what is so painfully obvious here, is that you can't possibly be as sincere as you have portrayed yourself to be during this conversation. And you are really making my case, since you have completely floundered on providing me with a biblical answer to my very basic question. This makes it seem as though you are doing what you like to accuse others of; ignoring passages that refute your false doctrine.

Lets try again...

According to Romans 3:28; how is a person Justified?


I already answered your question numerous times in this thread.

So, tell me, how do you make sense of those verses that say the world is saved when you believe one must believe to be saved? How also, do you justify the belief-based system when it is obviously unfair? How can one person be born into a believing household and another born into an unbelieving household? One gets salvation by doing what's status-quo for the family and the other has to swim up-stream to become a believer.

How can you possibly embrace something that is so obviously unfair and yet it is the mechanism that determines everyone's eternal destiny.

How can you also believe in freewill when I've listed verse after verse that that we do not choose to become believers on our own?




JitsuGuy,

I must have missed it, or perhaps you provided me with an unbiblical opinion rooted in human wisdom, and I quickly glossed over it.

Why are you having problems answering a simple question? Is there a fear that by answering, it will destroy the foundation of your false doctrine?

According to Romans 3:28; how is a person Justified?



My doctrine isn't false. It's very biblical.

We're justified by the faith of Christ which again should be obvious that this is my answer based on previous answers and statements. What kind of corner are you trying to back me into? Is that what you're looking for?

Why won't you answer my questions?
2/16/12 11:26 AM
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Workman
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JitsuGuy - 
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JitsuGuy - 
Workman - 
JitsuGuy - 
Workman - JitsuGuy, sorry about the last post.

My question for you is; why haven't you answered my previous question?

How is a person Justified?


I'd say a person is justified by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We can take no credit for our own justification.


Don't get defensive; nobody said anything about taking credit for their own justification, of which I agree.

However, what is so painfully obvious here, is that you can't possibly be as sincere as you have portrayed yourself to be during this conversation. And you are really making my case, since you have completely floundered on providing me with a biblical answer to my very basic question. This makes it seem as though you are doing what you like to accuse others of; ignoring passages that refute your false doctrine.

Lets try again...

According to Romans 3:28; how is a person Justified?


I already answered your question numerous times in this thread.

So, tell me, how do you make sense of those verses that say the world is saved when you believe one must believe to be saved? How also, do you justify the belief-based system when it is obviously unfair? How can one person be born into a believing household and another born into an unbelieving household? One gets salvation by doing what's status-quo for the family and the other has to swim up-stream to become a believer.

How can you possibly embrace something that is so obviously unfair and yet it is the mechanism that determines everyone's eternal destiny.

How can you also believe in freewill when I've listed verse after verse that that we do not choose to become believers on our own?




JitsuGuy,

I must have missed it, or perhaps you provided me with an unbiblical opinion rooted in human wisdom, and I quickly glossed over it.

Why are you having problems answering a simple question? Is there a fear that by answering, it will destroy the foundation of your false doctrine?

According to Romans 3:28; how is a person Justified?



My doctrine isn't false. It's very biblical.

We're justified by the faith of Christ which again should be obvious that this is my answer based on previous answers and statements. What kind of corner are you trying to back me into? Is that what you're looking for?

Why won't you answer my questions?


You are again twisting scripture to fit into your false doctrine. Lets just stick to scripture.

How was Abraham Justified?

The scripture says that, ...ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WS COUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS." (Romans 4:3)

Again, emphasis on "BELIEVED"....!

This scripture refutes this damnable heresy of universalism. But at least you've admitted that you don't ascribe to mainstream theology on salvation by Grace through belief.

So I shouldn't be surprised in the least when tiny sects like yourself come along using Christian lingo in order to create your own doctrines, while ignoring, or redefining the vast majority of scriptures to foolishly attempt to conform the bible to your lies.
2/16/12 11:32 AM
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JitsuGuy
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Workman - 
JitsuGuy - 
Workman - 
JitsuGuy - 
Workman - 
JitsuGuy - 
Workman - JitsuGuy, sorry about the last post.

My question for you is; why haven't you answered my previous question?

How is a person Justified?


I'd say a person is justified by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We can take no credit for our own justification.


Don't get defensive; nobody said anything about taking credit for their own justification, of which I agree.

However, what is so painfully obvious here, is that you can't possibly be as sincere as you have portrayed yourself to be during this conversation. And you are really making my case, since you have completely floundered on providing me with a biblical answer to my very basic question. This makes it seem as though you are doing what you like to accuse others of; ignoring passages that refute your false doctrine.

Lets try again...

According to Romans 3:28; how is a person Justified?


I already answered your question numerous times in this thread.

So, tell me, how do you make sense of those verses that say the world is saved when you believe one must believe to be saved? How also, do you justify the belief-based system when it is obviously unfair? How can one person be born into a believing household and another born into an unbelieving household? One gets salvation by doing what's status-quo for the family and the other has to swim up-stream to become a believer.

How can you possibly embrace something that is so obviously unfair and yet it is the mechanism that determines everyone's eternal destiny.

How can you also believe in freewill when I've listed verse after verse that that we do not choose to become believers on our own?




JitsuGuy,

I must have missed it, or perhaps you provided me with an unbiblical opinion rooted in human wisdom, and I quickly glossed over it.

Why are you having problems answering a simple question? Is there a fear that by answering, it will destroy the foundation of your false doctrine?

According to Romans 3:28; how is a person Justified?



My doctrine isn't false. It's very biblical.

We're justified by the faith of Christ which again should be obvious that this is my answer based on previous answers and statements. What kind of corner are you trying to back me into? Is that what you're looking for?

Why won't you answer my questions?


You are again twisting scripture to fit into your false doctrine. Lets just stick to scripture.

How was Abraham Justified?

The scripture says that, ...ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WS COUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS." (Romans 4:3)

Again, emphasis on "BELIEVED"....!

This scripture refutes this damnable heresy of universalism. But at least you've admitted that you don't ascribe to mainstream theology on salvation by Grace through belief.

So I shouldn't be surprised in the least when tiny sects like yourself come along using Christian lingo in order to create your own doctrines, while ignoring, or redefining the vast majority of scriptures to foolishly attempt to conform the bible to your lies.



It does say he believed God. But let me ask you, what are you reading into that? It says he believed God... Believed God in what? How does this have to do with believing in Jesus Christ and eternity?

I think you're reading a lot more into that verse than you realize.

You believe it's "damnable heresy of universalism" but I don't see that at all. So, what, now believing God in whatever matter Abraham believed God on, means not all are saved?

Yeah, that makes sense.
2/16/12 11:35 AM
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JitsuGuy
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For example, I believe God when I read the bible and it says that Jesus Christ is the savior of the world. Will God credit that to me as righteousness?

Time will tell? =)


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