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HolyGround >> I Defected From the Mainstream Church


2/16/12 11:37 AM
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Workman
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Workman - JitsuGuy, sorry about the last post.

My question for you is; why haven't you answered my previous question?

How is a person Justified?


I'd say a person is justified by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We can take no credit for our own justification.


Don't get defensive; nobody said anything about taking credit for their own justification, of which I agree.

However, what is so painfully obvious here, is that you can't possibly be as sincere as you have portrayed yourself to be during this conversation. And you are really making my case, since you have completely floundered on providing me with a biblical answer to my very basic question. This makes it seem as though you are doing what you like to accuse others of; ignoring passages that refute your false doctrine.

Lets try again...

According to Romans 3:28; how is a person Justified?


I already answered your question numerous times in this thread.

So, tell me, how do you make sense of those verses that say the world is saved when you believe one must believe to be saved? How also, do you justify the belief-based system when it is obviously unfair? How can one person be born into a believing household and another born into an unbelieving household? One gets salvation by doing what's status-quo for the family and the other has to swim up-stream to become a believer.

How can you possibly embrace something that is so obviously unfair and yet it is the mechanism that determines everyone's eternal destiny.

How can you also believe in freewill when I've listed verse after verse that that we do not choose to become believers on our own?




JitsuGuy,

I must have missed it, or perhaps you provided me with an unbiblical opinion rooted in human wisdom, and I quickly glossed over it.

Why are you having problems answering a simple question? Is there a fear that by answering, it will destroy the foundation of your false doctrine?

According to Romans 3:28; how is a person Justified?



My doctrine isn't false. It's very biblical.

We're justified by the faith of Christ which again should be obvious that this is my answer based on previous answers and statements. What kind of corner are you trying to back me into? Is that what you're looking for?

Why won't you answer my questions?


You are again twisting scripture to fit into your false doctrine. Lets just stick to scripture.

How was Abraham Justified?

The scripture says that, ...ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WS COUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS." (Romans 4:3)

Again, emphasis on "BELIEVED"....!

This scripture refutes this damnable heresy of universalism. But at least you've admitted that you don't ascribe to mainstream theology on salvation by Grace through belief.

So I shouldn't be surprised in the least when tiny sects like yourself come along using Christian lingo in order to create your own doctrines, while ignoring, or redefining the vast majority of scriptures to foolishly attempt to conform the bible to your lies.



It does say he believed God. But let me ask you, what are you reading into that? It says he believed God... Believed God in what? How does this have to do with believing in Jesus Christ and eternity?

I think you're reading a lot more into that verse than you realize.

You believe it's "damnable heresy of universalism" but I don't see that at all. So, what, now believing God in whatever matter Abraham believed God on, means not all are saved?

Yeah, that makes sense.


Is not Christ Jesus God?

And yes, since a person is only counted righteous through belief in God; this means that not all will be saved.

These matters of salvation are foolishness to those who are blind.
2/16/12 11:49 AM
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JitsuGuy
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Romans 3:21-24
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST unto ALL and upon all them that believe: FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

You see, it's clear. There is no difference between the believer and those that do not believe. What is this verse saying? Even the righteousness of God which is by the Faith of Christ for ALL, AND upon all that do also believe. For there is no difference!!! They have been JUSTIFIED FREELY BY HIS GRACE. Who? All!!!!


Thank you, thank you very much. I should preach for a living, I know. =)
2/16/12 12:07 PM
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Workman
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JitsuGuy - Romans 3:21-24
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST unto ALL and upon all them that believe: FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

You see, it's clear. There is no difference between the believer and those that do not believe. What is this verse saying? Even the righteousness of God which is by the Faith of Christ for ALL, AND upon all that do also believe. For there is no difference!!! They have been JUSTIFIED FREELY BY HIS GRACE. Who? All!!!!


Thank you, thank you very much. I should preach for a living, I know. =)


The context of the following passages deals with God's prescribed description of what Righteousness is, and how humans are declared to be Righteous.

Lets go through slowly...

Romans 3:21
"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;"

In verse 21, we can see that God has declared that no human can become Righteous through the law, but rather, the law is simply a mirror, which is used to show a man his filthiness / unrighteousness before a Holy and Perfect God.

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST unto ALL and upon all them that believe: FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE:

In verse 22, God proclaims His doctrine on how a person is to be declared Righteous. And by using the terms "unto all" simply means that this is God's prescribed means for "all persons", as in, It is always done the same way for everyone.

At the end of the day; God has given His offer, but there is a response that must be taken in reaction to God's offer, and the next stanza provides us with the condition upon which the offer is received.

It says, "....upon all them that BELIEVE: for there is no difference:"

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

The reason there is no difference is because all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God, and all person who BELIEVE are justified freely, as Grace is getting something you do not deserve and cannot earn.

JitsuGuy, you would be better off telling us that you are a believer of universalism without trying to call it Christianity, as your false doctrine is not supported by the Bible.

You'd have to tear out more of the scriptures, and you'd still have a problem proving your damnable heresy within the Word of God.
2/16/12 12:15 PM
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JitsuGuy
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Edited: 02/16/12 12:17 PM
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In all honesty, I think if there are any lurkers here, they're reading your posts and seeing just how much you're twisting scripture and leaving out parts and adding parts. I mean, you just now said...

"It says, "....upon all them that BELIEVE: for there is no difference:"

You left out "All." The entire verse says....

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

You conveniently only quoted the "upon all them that believe" even leaving out the word "and" so as to not show that there is another group also being mentioned in this verse and that is "ALL."

It says all have been justified, NOT just believers. This is very, very clear.

You have an agenda, bro. And it's that you are proven right, truth be damned.

It's sickening.
2/16/12 12:24 PM
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JitsuGuy
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Edited: 02/16/12 12:26 PM
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You sling your accusations of false doctrine and judgments of of committing heresy and you can't even be honest with yourself.

A more compassionate God, one that saves His entire creation because He knows what's best for them, whether they do or not, is love, it's compassionate and it's admirable.

You have to admit that saving someone or doing what's best for someone whether they believe it or not, sometimes needs to occur. Call it an intervention. That's what Jesus did. He saved us whether we believed or not. Because that's what is best for us. It is after all, what a parent does for their children.

The picture you paint of God is one lacking mercy, where judgment overcomes mercy and grace.

I just don't get it. And you expect people to flock to this God... The one who creates people that he knows will damn themselves for all eternity, yet creates them anyway. There is no love in that. Zero. But to you, the fundie. It's all unicorns and rainbows.

Give me a break. I have compassion for you though... I was where you're at for decades. It's tough to escape it. It's tough to be critical of something you've believed your entire life.

But at some point, you have to be honest with yourself. And sometimes you have to realize that shit just doesn't add up. Man up.
2/16/12 1:23 PM
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JitsuGuy
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Here, let me paint another picture of the Christian fundamentalist God.

Think of someone you know is a great person... Someone who would take the shirt off their back to give to another if necessary. Someone who always puts others above themselves. Let's also say this person does not believe in Jesus. But based on all society standards, this person is a giver and people respect and admire this person.

Let's say, one day the cops come by and pick up this man... They take him to prison. He's cut off from his family, never to be heard from again. His loved ones struggle to live without even communicating with him ever again. The cops then torment this person, day and night... He doesn't sleep, they barely feed him... The same person who was respected and admired in his community. They did this not because he was a bad person, not because he was a criminal but because he had this idea, or lack of an idea in his head...

Now picture this goes on for eternity.

If this were to happen in our society... If we imprisoned someone because of their belief, we would call it foul and unjust. But if God does this and torments them forever, It's okay, it's just and it's love.

We wonder why people mock us and scold us for our "twisted" beliefs? Because, that right there, is twisted.

2/16/12 10:25 PM
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Workman
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Edited: 02/16/12 10:26 PM
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JitsuGuy,

You do the deeds of your father who was a murderer from the beginning, and you are picking up right where he left off with your damnable heresy.

Speaking of father; I wonder why Abraham is known as the 'father of faith'?!?!

And I'm going to tie this point in with the previous point that I've been making regarding Romans 4:3.

By the way; are you aware that Paul was quoting all the way back from the Old Testament?

Genesis 15:6
"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

JitsuGuy, the scripture specifically states that one individual named Abraham BELIEVED.

It does not say that, "all" are counted as righteous without belief in God, and no amount of mental gymnastics will allow you to twist your way out of this one, though I know you will try.

This scripture in Genesis declares that the 'father of faith', Abraham, BELIEVED in God, and he was counted as Righteous, and this is God's prescribed way in which sinners become Righteous, and this is always the way that God saves a sinner.
2/17/12 9:56 AM
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inlikeflynn
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Workman, can you explain why you believed when you heard the Gospel and others did not? What is different about you?
2/17/12 11:16 AM
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Workman
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inlikeflynn - Workman, can you explain why you believed when you heard the Gospel and others did not? What is different about you?


Hey inlikeflynn,

I don't mind your question, but would you mind connecting it to this particular thread.

Otherwise, if it is a separate question; perhaps you wouldn't mind creating another thread to address it, as I'd rather not get off topic.
2/17/12 11:22 AM
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JitsuGuy
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Edited: 02/17/12 11:23 AM
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Workman,

So you believe belief-based salvation is an equal opportunity for all in the face of a little examination that it is not.

You also do not believe the apostles were correct when they called Jesus the savior of the world.

You also discount the reconciliation of all things as stated in Ephesians. You also do not believe 1st Timothy 4:10 that says Jesus is the savior of the world and especially believers.

So in order for your dogma to fit, you pick and choose what verses to believe upon. You still believe in freewill when in fact, it is nowhere within the bible, concerning our belief.

And I'm the one committing heresy.

If it weren't so serious a matter, it would be laughable, really.
2/17/12 11:26 AM
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JitsuGuy
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Workman - JitsuGuy,

You do the deeds of your father who was a murderer from the beginning, and you are picking up right where he left off with your damnable heresy.

Speaking of father; I wonder why Abraham is known as the 'father of faith'?!?!

And I'm going to tie this point in with the previous point that I've been making regarding Romans 4:3.

By the way; are you aware that Paul was quoting all the way back from the Old Testament?

Genesis 15:6
"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

JitsuGuy, the scripture specifically states that one individual named Abraham BELIEVED.

It does not say that, "all" are counted as righteous without belief in God, and no amount of mental gymnastics will allow you to twist your way out of this one, though I know you will try.

This scripture in Genesis declares that the 'father of faith', Abraham, BELIEVED in God, and he was counted as Righteous, and this is God's prescribed way in which sinners become Righteous, and this is always the way that God saves a sinner.


Okay, so he was righteous because he believed. Great, I guess that settles it. That means everyone else is going to hell because they don't believe.

Because that's exactly what you're reading into that, even though, IT IS NOT THERE.
2/17/12 11:53 AM
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JitsuGuy
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inlikeflynn - Workman, can you explain why you believed when you heard the Gospel and others did not? What is different about you?



He's more astute than the rest. Thus salvation becomes based on intellect and the ability to choose correctly. If you're dumb, sorry, you're going to burn.
2/17/12 11:57 AM
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inlikeflynn
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inlikeflynn - Workman, can you explain why you believed when you heard the Gospel and others did not? What is different about you?


Hey inlikeflynn,

I don't mind your question, but would you mind connecting it to this particular thread.

Otherwise, if it is a separate question; perhaps you wouldn't mind creating another thread to address it, as I'd rather not get off topic.


It is connected to the topic as it speaks to what bothers Jitsuguy, and myself as well, about limited, belief-based salvation. If God requires belief for salvation, and only grants the ability to believe to a select few (and Scripture seems to say that), then there is a real disconnect between that and a loving, merciful God, no? If you contend that God does not choose who receives the gift of faith, and that every individual is free to choose, then you must admit that there is something different about YOU that allowed you to have faith. If that is the case, isn't your salvation something of a reward?
2/17/12 12:03 PM
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inlikeflynn - 
Workman - 
inlikeflynn - Workman, can you explain why you believed when you heard the Gospel and others did not? What is different about you?


Hey inlikeflynn,

I don't mind your question, but would you mind connecting it to this particular thread.

Otherwise, if it is a separate question; perhaps you wouldn't mind creating another thread to address it, as I'd rather not get off topic.


It is connected to the topic as it speaks to what bothers Jitsuguy, and myself as well, about limited, belief-based salvation. If God requires belief for salvation, and only grants the ability to believe to a select few (and Scripture seems to say that), then there is a real disconnect between that and a loving, merciful God, no? If you contend that God does not choose who receives the gift of faith, and that every individual is free to choose, then you must admit that there is something different about YOU that allowed you to have faith. If that is the case, isn't your salvation something of a reward?

 I think that is a good synopsis of the issue at hand, but I think it amounts to a false dilemma since it assumes that the whole of salvation is wrapped up in what we can observe in our own lives.  
2/17/12 12:13 PM
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JitsuGuy
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inlikeflynn - 
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inlikeflynn - Workman, can you explain why you believed when you heard the Gospel and others did not? What is different about you?


Hey inlikeflynn,

I don't mind your question, but would you mind connecting it to this particular thread.

Otherwise, if it is a separate question; perhaps you wouldn't mind creating another thread to address it, as I'd rather not get off topic.


It is connected to the topic as it speaks to what bothers Jitsuguy, and myself as well, about limited, belief-based salvation. If God requires belief for salvation, and only grants the ability to believe to a select few (and Scripture seems to say that), then there is a real disconnect between that and a loving, merciful God, no? If you contend that God does not choose who receives the gift of faith, and that every individual is free to choose, then you must admit that there is something different about YOU that allowed you to have faith. If that is the case, isn't your salvation something of a reward?

 I think that is a good synopsis of the issue at hand, but I think it amounts to a false dilemma since it assumes that the whole of salvation is wrapped up in what we can observe in our own lives.  


But that is precisely what belief based salvation postulates. It turns salvation into a matter of perception based on the millions of things that contribute to what we believe to be true. All of which are different for everyone. Nobody is on the same playing field when it comes to ones ability to believe.

What proponents of belief-based salvation want to say is that IT IS an equal opportunity for everyone. But they have to dismiss reality and rely completely on the speculation that it's fair, in order to believe they're right. And I don't feel this is an intellectual approach to the matter.
2/17/12 12:20 PM
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gord96
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..
2/17/12 12:50 PM
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inlikeflynn
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gord96 - 
inlikeflynn - Workman, can you explain why you believed when you heard the Gospel and others did not? What is different about you?



It's a good question Flynn. Jitsuguy actually covered it pretty well. Belief comes from God, not man. If a person does not believe, then that is God's will. God created a world in which both his wrath and his mercy would be displayed. Indeed, his mercy shines against the backdrop of his wrath, showing thereby that the salvation of any person is due to the grace and love of God. If this is difficult to understand, it is because people mistakenly think God owes them salvation.

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--
(Romans 9:22-23)


This is certainly possible as God can do what he wants with his creation. However, doesn't what He chooses to do have a bearing on whether or not He is good/loving? So, even though we are not "owed" salvation, how could you call a being who creates sentient beings, then chooses some for paradise, and others for everlasting torment, good and loving?
2/17/12 3:47 PM
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gord96
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.....
2/17/12 7:40 PM
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JitsuGuy
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gord96,

How does he destroy the "wicked" when there is no hell?

How does he destroy the "wicked" when everything is reconciled to him? Ephesians 1:10

How does he destroy the "wicked" if he is also the savior of the world? 1st Timothy 4:10

2/17/12 10:22 PM
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prof
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gord96 - God created a world in which both his wrath and his mercy would be displayed. Indeed, his mercy shines against the backdrop of his wrath,

There is really no way to sugar coat the answer. God does everything to glorify himself. Even the destruction of the wicked.


Man it's an ugly sight, seeing modern day adults still beholden to such an immature, ancient mentality - having swallowed not only the good stuff in the bible but the bad stuff along with it. Sometimes I get close to convincing myself that maybe religion can be considered a neutral, harmless concept and then I read stuff like this…and try not to let it get me depressed about us humans.

Prof.
2/18/12 12:18 AM
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prof
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P.S.

Anyone thinking like Gord: Search youtube for "Mr. Deity and The Occupation" to get a look at how such thinking comes off.

Prof.
2/18/12 12:42 AM
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Workman
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Edited: 02/18/12 12:46 AM
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<blockquote>inlikeflynn - <blockquote>Workman - <blockquote>inlikeflynn - Workman, can you explain why you believed when you heard the Gospel and others did not? What is different about you?</blockquote><br /><br />Hey inlikeflynn,<br /><br />I don't mind your question, but would you mind connecting it to this particular thread.<br /><br />Otherwise, if it is a separate question; perhaps you wouldn't mind creating another thread to address it, as I'd rather not get off topic.</blockquote><br /><br />It is connected to the topic as it speaks to what bothers Jitsuguy, and myself as well, about limited, belief-based salvation. If God requires belief for salvation, and only grants the ability to believe to a select few (and Scripture seems to say that), then there is a real disconnect between that and a loving, merciful God, no? If you contend that God does not choose who receives the gift of faith, and that every individual is free to choose, then you must admit that there is something different about YOU that allowed you to have faith. If that is the case, isn't your salvation something of a reward?</blockquote><br /><br />

Inlikeflynn,

Ok, I understand your concern, and though you may not necessarily agree with my explanation, I hope you will at least acknowledge that I was careful to back up my answers to your reasonable question with scriptures.

In accordance with John 1:12, I believed in Christ, which equates with receiving Him. They go together.

The act of true faith involves both believing and receiving. Just like in John 6 faith is described as eating and drinking. Christ must be personally appropriated and received by faith.

John 1:13 teaches that our regeneration has its source in God.

God is sovereign and man is responsible. Both are true!

God must do the saving; man must do the believing.

God will do His part and that's His business. We must do our part, and God holds us responsible if we fail to do what He commands us sinner to do.

The Bible makes it very clear that THOSE WHO ARE SAVED AND HEAVEN-BOUND HAVE ONLY GOD TO THANK and THOSE WHO ARE LOST AND DAMNED HAVE ONLY THEMSELVES TO BLAME.

Those who are saved have only God to thank:

God must get all the credit (1 Corinthians 1:29-31).

There is no basis for boasting (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Peter did not open his own eyes (Matthew 16:16-17).

No one can come to the Saviour apart from supernatural enabling (John 6:44-45,65).

Those who are lost have only themselves to blame:

God desires all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4).

God is rich unto all that call upon Him (Romans 10:12-13).

God was willing; man was unwilling (Matthew 23:37).

The reason man does not have eternal life is because of his stubborn and sinful REFUSAL to come to the only Saviour (John 5:40).

Those who suffer eternal punishment are those who DISOBEYED the good news of the gospel (2 Thess.1:8-9).

Man must take full blame and responsibility for his eternal destination.

The saved person thankfully says, "I’M IN HEAVEN BECAUSE OF GOD!"

The lost person must truthfully say, "I’M IN HELL BECAUSE OF ME!"

Those who are damned will never be able to blame God or say, "I’m damned because GOD DID NOT CHOOSE ME!"

Their damnation is based not upon God’s rejection of them but upon THEIR REJECTION OF GOD: "He that believeth not shall be damned" (Mark 16:16).

"He that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (John 3:18).

"Of sin, because they believe not on Me" (John 16:9).

"And still you are not willing (but refuse) to come to Me, so that you might have life" (John 5:40).

Man does not contribute to his own salvation. It is the work of God, "not of works lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:8-9).

God does not contribute to man’s unbelief. That is man's work.

God alone must do the saving. Man must do the believing.

God must get all the glory and all the credit. Unbelieving man must take the blame.

"To God be the glory great things HE HATH DONE!"
2/18/12 1:26 AM
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Ali
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It seems to me there's a twist on Pascal's Wager here. Like, you should believe, just in case the universalists are wrong...

(Mind you, I think Pascal's (orignal) Wager was un-helpful enough!)
2/18/12 8:39 AM
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Workman
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Ali - It seems to me there's a twist on Pascal's Wager here. Like, you should believe, just in case the universalists are wrong...

(Mind you, I think Pascal's (orignal) Wager was un-helpful enough!)


Pascal’s wager was predicated on the basis that, the existence of God could not be proven, so, just in case; it is better to believe in His existence.

This is in stark contrast to what I have provided, as I have offered proof.

The Word of God does indeed declare that there is only ONE prescribed way in which God saves sinners; and it is so clearly through BELIEF.

It is simple, but prideful humans muck it up, and disobediently decide they want to do it their own way, instead of God’s (only) prescribed way.

Acts 16:30-31
Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
2/18/12 8:52 AM
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prof
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Workman - 
The Word of God does indeed declare that there is only ONE prescribed way in which God saves sinners; and it is so clearly through BELIEF.



Which is exactly the move you can expect when someone is trying to sell you something they don't have. It's a great trick. Emphasize the importance of "belief" rather than plain old evidence. If you can push that one, you can get the flock to first "believe"...without the burden of good evidence.

Exactly the technique that flourishes among con men ("who will always try to gain your trust and belief to negate the burden of showing he doesn't have what he's asking you to buy), and of course it's used by countless wacky cult leaders throughout the ages (in which belief in the leader's divinity is the main requirement).

But, you can point this out to people ad nauseum, and they'll still fall for it.

Prof.



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