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JKD UnderGround >> Is Wing Chun an effective art for a street fight?


2/17/12 10:36 AM
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superdave08402
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I've been studying Wing Chun for a few months. Do you think Wing Chun is an effective martial art, particularly in a street fight? I've found some of the blocks can really hurt forearms. Wing Chun striking has very fast punches, but not necessarily power punches.
2/17/12 6:03 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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No.

Not at all.

They have nothing in common.

Demi

www.DemiBarbito.com
2/19/12 3:27 AM
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Boyscout
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OK I hate wing chun, from the way it's trained to its rubbish punches, its forms and its trapping. Always have and probably always will. I hate wing chun so much I actually turned up to fight at a throw down in the wing chun wars here in the UK in the eighties when I was just a Muay Thai guy, just to flatten WC guys.

However I actually think it’s about context, because in Hong Kong the streets are often packed with people, you can’t retreat and there is little space to move and it’s a really bad idea to take it to the ground. So let’s say you bump into someone and words turn into an attack, you use you wing chun to close the person down, break his nose with your punch, knee him in the nuts and drop him with an elbow to the temple. That was wing chun working just fine for self defence as it’s meant to.

The trouble with wing chun, it’s not just the faults listed above (rubbish punches etc) but the way it’s trained.

My advice goggle a guy called Matt Thornton and read anything by him on aliveness and delivery systems. Make your own mind up from there.

Best of luck in your training and enjoy it.

Richard
2/19/12 1:43 PM
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BostonRedBaron
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I was an assistant instructor in two different systems of the chun. Not sure who you are training under, but there are very very few schools that can teach you how to use this art effectively, especially in America (Mcdojo-Fu)

Most WC instructors do not have direct first-hand experience in fighitng (competition or street). They do not even train with other WC styles much less other martial arts cause of politics.

Personally, the best thing i did for learning which WC techniques would actually work, was to quit WC and spend the next 2 years in a technical MMA gym, that also has a very good knife/stick program they integrate into their training to cover the non-sport situations. For me, i have only found a very small subset of WC techniques (about 6 techniques) to work and they all required some, um, modification to work. Could I go back to WC? Yes. Would I? No. I got something useful out of WC and discarded the rest.

Boyscout is correct in his assessment of why WC was useful in Hong Kong and Matt Thortons articles on aliveness are fantastic.

Best advice I can give you is to get out there and try some other schools and gyms and don't be afraid to mix it up sparring different systems to see what happens, what works, and what doesnt't

2/19/12 5:19 PM
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Spartan79
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Didn't Bruce lee say it was useless in a streetfight! That's enough for me lol Phone Post
2/20/12 11:50 AM
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Demitrius Barbito
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Spartan79 -  Didn't Bruce lee say it was useless in a streetfight! That's enough for me lol Phone Post

 Bruce Lees idea of a street fight was not realistic. He was not attempting to prepare for an assault by a larger, stronger and very goal oriented attacker at a time you never expected to be attacked.
2/20/12 9:04 PM
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Majic Sam
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Demi,why then do you think that Bruce mostly disregarded trapping (range) cirriculum at the LA school?

Student consensus has it that he focused much more on broken rhythm,boxing footwork and evasion over anything resembling W.C.

According to Ted Wong,Bruce focused very little on W.C. (trapping range) during the early 70's,beyond the basic Lop,Tan,Jut,Bong,Jao Sau,etc.Pretty basic trap/hit/centerline stuff.

It seems fair to say that Bruce found trapping range to be incidental,if not accidental,and opted for the outside range to closing the gap.IMO,how that approach would have worked in the early 70's vs. a modern MMA trained opponent is a moot point.JKD defines a work in progress and a non-attachment to worshipping the past as a system.I don't need to explain.

Anyway,O.P.,if you want to learn some W.C. the first half of the trad W.C. dummy form is probably enough thru a video recording vs. the entire form at a club,...Then,disregard the compond traps in favor of broken rhythm,distance,simplicity and timing applications. Improvise and train with a boxer's mindset.Double it up and work the heavy bag with headbutts,knees and elbows.

Approach W.C.concepts w/ a face to face approach over side to side trad W.C. method and close the gap with Greco/M.T./trips,tosses and throws,clinchwork.Your subs are for a different thread.
2/20/12 11:24 PM
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Majic Sam
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Close the gap with much forward pressure upon an opening using an uneven 3-5 beat measure,ala Vitor Blast (vs V. Silva),otherwise,disengage.The Vitor Blast utilizes diagonal hand/footwork than trad W.C...Same idea but with better base/economy of motion.
2/21/12 1:16 AM
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Majic Sam
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...then,Austin City Fart Blast.

BLAMMOH!

Seriously deadly Texan chilli recipe going on tonight,folks.
2/21/12 2:23 AM
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Majic Sam
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Edited: 02/21/12 2:51 AM
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Tough crowd,this JKD Forum....sheesh.Seriously,though,

Boyscout makes some good points about defending oneself in closed quurters,crowded bars,streets,etcIt's always a good thing to subdue an asshole in a minimal area/space and shut them down,as the average drunken geek(s)throw wild and looping shots.

W.C. principals definitely has it's place in closed quarters applications,and Western boxing teaches head coverage/.I.E.,evade shots,and good old boxing footwork,but without mobility and range...

JKD Principals,Mr. Barbito.

Have seen you and your videos.You guys don't know much about footwork application,so maybe you should check it out,being a big time coach,etc...
2/21/12 2:58 AM
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Majic Sam
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And while you are at it,stop criticizing dead guys.
2/22/12 1:40 AM
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jcblass
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Demitrius Barbito - No.

Not at all.

<div>They have nothing in common.

Demi

www.DemiBarbito.com</div>


I would hate to be the frat boy or tweaked out robber who tries to attack Emin Boztepe. I would imagine he would fare OK in a street fight...
2/23/12 5:56 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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I would hate to be the frat boy or tweaked out robber who tries to attack Emin Boztepe. I would imagine he would fare OK in a street fight..

Emin Boztepe (or any other person) notwithstanding...

This is not a realistic framing of the argument. An untrained person hiding behind the corner with a sharpened pencil could take out a Navy SEAL if he plunged the pencil into his eye socket and followed up or just ran.

What YOU mean by streetfight and what any other person means if going to be vastly different.

Streetfights (as it is stated here) are a dishonorable use of violence against an unsuspecting person in many cases with the aggressor having the advatage of knowing in advance and using weapons to secure his ends. It is usually predatory in nature. Often times it is a larger person looking for a smaller person (and even having several other ready to intervene if things went wrong).

If this "type" of framing makes sense to you then Wing Chun would not be an "art" witha  high probability arsenal. If it was if would be standard training for Homeland Security, CIA, SEALs, body guards, bouncers and super heros.

I'm a nice guy and mean no disrespect. I'm just giving my opinion to a question asked on a forum.


2/23/12 10:40 PM
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Majic Sam
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I appreciate your views,Demi.

I dig your material,for the most part.

Not sure about your view re: BL.

Wouldn't mind sharing a bevy with you talking about Randy Rhoads and Uli Roth,etc,Demi.

It is the chip on your percieved shoulder whenever the Bruce topic comes up that makes me wonder why you don't respect.

You have a business to run,so maybe promoting the business angle is it,but,for example,without Hendrix,there would not be a George Lynch,etc.

Without Bruce,there would be not Demi-ex JKD Renegade,as we know it.

You should well understand the progression in regard to music,so why not in M.A influence?Lay off of Bruce.He wasn't perfect,nor was Hendrix,or Eddie.Technically,they have been surpassed thru time,like B.L.

We don't stand on our own shoulders,exclusively.Respect the timeline,mang.
2/24/12 12:03 AM
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jcblass
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Demitrius Barbito - 
I would hate to be the frat boy or tweaked out robber who tries to attack Emin Boztepe. I would imagine he would fare OK in a street fight..

<span class="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: 20px; font-size: small; ">Emin Boztepe (or any other person) notwithstanding...
</span>
This is not a realistic framing of the argument. An untrained person hiding behind the corner with a sharpened pencil could take out a Navy SEAL if he plunged the pencil into his eye socket and followed up or just ran.

What YOU mean by streetfight and what any other person means if going to be vastly different.

Streetfights (as it is stated here) are a dishonorable use of violence against an unsuspecting person in many cases with the aggressor having the advatage of knowing in advance and using weapons to secure his ends. It is usually predatory in nature. Often times it is a larger person looking for a smaller person (and even having several other ready to intervene if things went wrong).

If this "type" of framing makes sense to you then Wing Chun would not be an "art" witha  high probability arsenal. If it was if would be standard training for Homeland Security, CIA, SEALs, body guards, bouncers and super heros.

I'm a nice guy and mean no disrespect. I'm just giving my opinion to a question asked on a forum.

<br type="_moz" />



I don't understand your choice in definition. What you are calling a street fight is better defined as a mugging. I have never personally witnessed a mugging but I have seen many street fights. These events were usually instigated by bad attitudes, alcohol or merely being in the wrong place at the wrong time. The size, unsuspecting nature of the other person or the supposed predatory mindset of the aggressor weighed very little in the eventual altercation. Rather it was simply two people fighting, youtube is filled with these types of videos.

As an aside, since when do the Navy Seals, bouncers or bodyguards train for "dishonorable use of violence against an unsuspecting person in many cases with the aggressor having the advatage of knowing in advance and using weapons to secure his ends."

This seems nonsensical, the bouncer would be in the authoritative position and the Navy SEAL by definition would be well armed and joined by other operators. By your definition, there would be no way they could ever be in a "streetfight."
2/24/12 1:24 AM
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Majic Sam
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.Dig,but when a righteous streetfight occurs,it should be done with the utmost violent purpose in mind...but,then,why bother training for paranoid street scenarios/mindsets that Demi often ridicules?

IMO,a fucked up marketing ploy.

Demi hates Bruce in the early 70's cuz he didn't teach GJJ,or learned firearms?

Dude never fully states his case,just disses JKD on the threads,then doesn't follow up original critique.

Buy my latest Vunakripoffdvd.com?

Come the fack,dude,who are you to diss Bruce Lee?
2/24/12 2:21 AM
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jcblass
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Majic Sam - .Dig,but when a righteous streetfight occurs,it should be done with the utmost violent purpose in mind...but,then,why bother training for paranoid street scenarios/mindsets that Demi often ridicules?

IMO,a fucked up marketing ploy.

Demi hates Bruce in the early 70's cuz he didn't teach GJJ,or learned firearms?

Dude never fully states his case,just disses JKD on the threads,then doesn't follow up original critique.

Buy my latest Vunakripoffdvd.com?

Come the fack,dude,who are you to diss Bruce Lee?



I am surprised to hear he does not like JKD or Bruce Lee, he lists JKD has his primary art on his website. He has articles with JKD written all over it. Last I heard, JKD was Bruce Lee's creation...

Odd he would market and profit off the style Bruce Lee created, then hit the forums and declare the man and his techniques as useless because they do not fit his shallow definition of a street fight.
2/28/12 12:03 PM
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Priderulesforever
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I have known someone who used it successfully many times. IIRC, he said something along the lines of "it was great for ballistic attacks in the first 15 seconds if you can finish them, and after that, not so good", or something to that effect.

2/29/12 11:23 PM
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BostonRedBaron
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If your unwilling to test out your skills then go to people whose technical skills is known, & respected and their fighting skills is also known, & respected and ask them directly (Gracies, Vunak, Dogbrothers). You'd be surprised to find out how honest they are about what works and doesn't work and what is sport and not sport.

Gracies do train boxing, kickboxing to deal with strikers and the majority of the fights are finished on the ground. They claim majority (90%) of street fights, challenge matches etc. end on the ground. Whose arguing? Its what they train to do. Others claim just the opposite. So whose right? Or are they both right cause they train and get experience on making what the do work. That's who i go train under. Technical, practical, & proven in and out of the ring

Now is the wing chun school your at doing this? Or just claiming street self defense (mugging, bar brawl et. al) yet no one there is willing to put it to the test.

Don't go by what one guy alone said once (BL) or what one guy made work once. Avoid people who quote statistics. This usually means they have no idea, so they quote someone else hard-work and experience.
3/1/12 2:25 AM
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HEMAN
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superdave08402 - I've been studying Wing Chun for a few months. Do you think Wing Chun is an effective martial art, particularly in a street fight? I've found some of the blocks can really hurt forearms. Wing Chun striking has very fast punches, but not necessarily power punches.


MY OPINION. No. The only thing I found useful was the front snap kick to the groin or push kick. A quick pak and strikes were useful when I sparred. Other than that I prefer boxing. Much of the wing chun trapping were not practical unless both guys are fighting ala wing chun...and even then...you couldn't get a proper pak or lop. Simply put there are other styles/techniques are superior to wing chun.
3/1/12 2:43 AM
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Majic Sam
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Style differences aside,W.C. was a great foil to the common Japanese/TKD 50'-60's mindset of "block and strike" mentality.

Make no mistake about it,B.L. made definite notes in Tao of JKD re; mastering groundfighting.
3/1/12 11:34 AM
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HEMAN
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Edited: 03/01/12 11:46 AM
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There is no indication of Bruce mastering groundfighting. Notes in the Tao of JKD was drawings he made...there is no video evidence of him competing and very few stated that he was a great grappler = mastering groundfighting. They said he dabble in it with Gene Lebell and Hayward Nishiosha. He did demo it in a few movies.
3/1/12 11:35 AM
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HEMAN
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Edited: 03/01/12 11:47 AM
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.
3/1/12 2:41 PM
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BostonRedBaron
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Majic Sam - Style differences aside,W.C. was a great foil to the common Japanese/TKD 50'-60's mindset of "block and strike" mentality.


Agreed. And the irony of it is that WC is billed out to be more of a conceptual system and yet WC people still dogmatically hold on to the same techniques taught over 100 years ago in china that don't work any more given how people fight today, even if the notion of what they are trying to do is sound (simultaneous block/strike vs "block and strike" mentality).
3/2/12 3:25 AM
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Majic Sam
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I never said that BL mastered groundfighting.

Beyond the Tao of JKD illustrations,included in his notes was to "master groundfighting".

Can't recall the page #,etc.

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