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JKD UnderGround >> Is Wing Chun an effective art for a street fight?


3/2/12 2:36 PM
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Spartan79
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Demitrius Barbito -
Spartan79 -  Didn't Bruce lee say it was useless in a streetfight! That's enough for me lol Phone Post

 Bruce Lees idea of a street fight was not realistic. He was not attempting to prepare for an assault by a larger, stronger and very goal oriented attacker at a time you never expected to be attacked.
Really! I don't do jkd as such but I've train boxing, Thai and judo.
I think lee was one of the few that was years ahead when it came to realistic fighting! Phone Post
3/2/12 2:38 PM
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Spartan79
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Also lee was smaller than most Americans.
Do you really think he wasn't prepared to take on bigger people. Most people were bigger than him lol! Phone Post
3/2/12 6:22 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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 My statements are just MY OPINION. You are entitled to yours and I think it's wonderful that we can share and have a discourse.

I, personally, do not think of Bruce Lee as anything other than an actor, instructor (with a fanatisism for conditioning) and a decent philosopher.

Many of his students could have devasted him in a real fight (Joe Lewis comes to mind) - JUST LIKE many of mine could do to me. I've trained one guy for 5 years who is 6' 3" and 250lbs. Toe to toe would be a fearsome thing against this man (gentle a man as he is). But that's why weight classes are the order of the day in competitive fight (or else fatalities would be the norm). 

Streetfights/assault/etc are not usualy planned and therefore you have to operate outside of your weightclass "spontaneously". If you are in a planned streetfight you probably have serious, mental/emotional issues and most normal/semi normal persons would not want to socialize with you. You have nothing to "prove" to a lrager/stronger and totally committed attacker. You simply need to escape (back down/apologize even when you did nothing) or hurt them severley enough to stop them being a threat to you "in order to escape and call the police/ambulance and secure the safety of those with you (wives/children/elderly/innocents)".

Nothing in BL's body of work shows me this type of tactical/proper/common sense approach towads HIGH PROBIBILITY TACTICS". Even the fact that he accepted or participated in challenge matches "goes against self preservation" in it's basic form.  He "showed off" what he could do well and minimized everything else.

Telling people to "be like water" doesn't help them when two guys jump out from around a corner and throw punches and kicks at you while you are with your wife and infant daughter.

He was a "great" actor and cinematographer. He was great at "selling" something Americans didn't have much familiarity with. He was in excellent phyical condition (obsession pays off BUT also costs you relationally with family/children and friends).

He COULD NOT HAVE BEATEN ANYONE WHO EVER CONFRONTED HIM. He was just a man as frail and gragile emotionally and physically as any one of us. I did benefit from his conceptual framwork of JKD. But that too has needed many adjunct tactics and consideration (verbal de-escalation/re-direction, OC Spray, firearms, clinch, ground...)

Nobody, not you, me or BL has the LAST WORD on anything. Just the "latest word". 
3/2/12 11:35 PM
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Priderulesforever
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Does anyone have an opinion of an instructor named Victor Guiterrez(sp?) and the style of WT/WC he ateaches?
3/3/12 2:12 AM
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jcblass
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For a guy who equates JKD and its founder to nothing more than a philosophical actor with little practical self defense techniques, you sure as hell do a GREAT job of using his style and his brand for personal profits.

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3/3/12 2:16 AM
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jcblass
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Demitrius Barbito - No.

Not at all.

<div>They have nothing in common.

Demi

www.DemiBarbito.com</div>



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1TLtiegu2w

Despite being totally regurgitated Vunak material, this technique you teach here relies heavily on Wing Chun principles of forward pressure and chain punching.....

Some people, in their attempt to be so cutting edge, go too far out of their way to reject traditional principles in order to be on the cutting edge of self-defense, or should I say "self-preservation"

:rolls eyes:

3/3/12 3:24 AM
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Spartan79
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Demi (Many of his students could have devasted him in a real fight Joe Lewis comes to mind) -
Just the mere fact that people like joe Lewis and gene lebell trained with lee and are open in saying how good he really was. Is why we know he was someone special. Not saying he was the best and I'm sure gene and others could of kicked his arse however that does not escape the fact that lee was respected by these people as a fighter! Phone Post
3/3/12 3:29 AM
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Spartan79
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In regards to wc in a real fight I would rather have boxing knowledge but that's just mho . I have seen boxers spar wc guys and the boxer always came out on top. I'm sure this isn't always the case but I think boxing would better prepare you for the chip shop arena , so to speak. Phone Post
3/3/12 1:40 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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 The actual framework of JKD was conceptualized by BL but developed by Inosanto and many, many, many others.

BUT, go all the way back to Greco/Roman (think Sparta) functional fighting has always been around.

Eastern mysticsim is much easier to sell to western audiences than Hellenistic thought.

The strangest part about this thread is an opinion was asked for, given and then the crap starts flying because it's not popular.

I once thought one way and, now through experience, I think another way.

Yay me!
3/3/12 1:51 PM
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Spartan79
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Don't really get what your on about here??? No one has said BL invented anything other than JKD and even my gran could tell you roots of fighting arts. Lee was ONE of those ahead of his time when it came to fighting. His Cross training was not the norm! This is fact. I am only answering your claims that lee could not fight bigger men and did not have a realistic look on fighting.
As I said in my points above why would fighters like Lebell and Lewis and many more train with lee if he had nothing to offer? Phone Post
3/3/12 2:07 PM
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jcblass
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It is not popular because you say that WC is absolutely not effective in a self-defense situation, then knock Bruce Lee and claim he was nothing but an actor, no different than Clint Eastwood (I suppose). However, you have the word JKD blasted all over your website and attached to several of your videos. You list JKD as your primary style and teach many of the concepts and techniques in your videos.


Then you have these videos demonstrating WC techniques for self defense despite the fact you are on record as saying WC is ineffective in such a scenario. This is very curious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1TLtiegu2w

You may call what you are doing in this video "the stinger system" but this is nothing more than a straight blast entry as taught in WC. When Paul Vunak teaches this VERY SAME ENTERY he calls it Wing Chun....

I just think it would be nonsensical to teach a thai clinch, for example, along with some close quarter elbows and knees, then go on internet forums and say how terrible thai boxing is in a self-defense situation. Then when pressed about apparent contradiction, say "Well that wasn't Thai Boxing, that was my "Torpedo System of Striking." This is essentially what you have done with JKD and WC. You teach many of the same (exact) techniques as many other JKD/WC instructors yet think by renaming those techniques "shredder" or " stinger" you have somehow invented something new.




3/3/12 2:07 PM
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Spartan79
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Demi I had a look at you on YouTube
:-@ Please don't knock Mr Lee! I thought you were on about realistic fighting??? Phone Post
3/3/12 8:32 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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Spartan79 -  Demi I had a look at you on YouTube
:-@ Please don't knock Mr Lee! I thought you were on about realistic fighting??? Phone Post

 I'm a cartoon character. 

My life is so far and away removed from my "martial arts YouTube clips". BUT - That's what I tuaght ( looking at the vids in their progression over the years). 

I now count it all rubbish...
3/4/12 6:49 AM
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Spartan79
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Fair enough. Phone Post
3/4/12 6:51 AM
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Spartan79
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Fair enough. Phone Post
3/12/12 10:05 AM
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Joe Maffei
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Wing Chun is no different then any other Art/style. Some is good, some is bad, some teaching the art are good and bad, like anything else. Usually those teaching the Art are followers of the art and have a hard time throwing out the bad, and 90% of most don't realize the bad for lack of realistic testing, like most other styles..
Street fights (assaults) will need much more then Wing Chun training, add in Track & Field with Emergency Self Aid and it's a start.
3/18/12 7:21 AM
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BigSifu
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Edited: 03/18/12 7:21 AM
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Wow. I leave for awhile,come back,same old crap. martial artists are the biggest nerds I've ever seen. Especially the "Brucies". Rickson > Bruce Lee. Smith & Wesson > both!
3/19/12 1:13 AM
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Majic Sam
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Point taken,Big Sifu.However,I find it disingenuous for a businessman to endlessly point out and criticize the format that the original model/approach set out to address,call it boxing,modified WC,MMA,etc.IMO,DB goes beyond being a fanboy critic,and is just looking to be controversial,racey and topical.

DB's bread and butter technique is the Straight Blast.Calling it anything other than W.C. is a lie,and I an not a huge W.C. fan,by any stretch.
3/19/12 10:58 AM
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Demitrius Barbito
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 """DB's bread and butter technique is the Straight Blast.Calling it anything other than W.C. is a lie,and I an not a huge W.C. fan,by any stretch."""

I do not have a bread and butter tech.

Incidentally, I favor verbal descalation or boxing myself. 

"""I find it disingenuous for a businessman"""

I'm not a business man.
3/19/12 5:09 PM
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Marc1000
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Demi,

Since you sell a DVD that recommends the straight blast, you might want to do the one of the following:

1.) Film a new DVD that covers your preferred strategies of boxing and descalation.

2.) Mention on your web site that your thoughts on unarmed combat have evolved and the DVD should be viewed more for the history of your philosophies than for practical self-defense advice.

Demi, I don't mean to single you out with this advice. I know of JKD instructors who cover trapping on their DVD's, but when you speak to them they state that trapping is only for sensitivity training, and that it's very difficult, if not impossible to implement these trapping techniques in a sparring or self-preservation environment. However, they never bothered to clearly state this advice on their DVD's.

My 2 cents.
3/20/12 11:09 AM
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Siciliano
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Edited: 03/20/12 11:09 PM
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After seeing his videos on youtube, I refrained from trying to have an intelligent "technical" discussion with him on the other thread.<br /><br />
3/21/12 10:15 AM
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Demitrius Barbito
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Edited: 03/21/12 10:15 AM
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Marc1000 - Demi,

Since you sell a DVD that recommends the straight blast, you might want to do the one of the following:

1.) Film a new DVD that covers your preferred strategies of boxing and descalation.

2.) Mention on your web site that your thoughts on unarmed combat have evolved and the DVD should be viewed more for the history of your philosophies than for practical self-defense advice.

Demi, I don't mean to single you out with this advice. I know of JKD instructors who cover trapping on their DVD's, but when you speak to them they state that trapping is only for sensitivity training, and that it's very difficult, if not impossible to implement these trapping techniques in a sparring or self-preservation environment. However, they never bothered to clearly state this advice on their DVD's.

My 2 cents.
Here's the deal. I haven't been teaching for years...

I don't update the site because what is on the site is what I was doing at that time. To update it with my thoughts now would be somewhat misleading (kind of a "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain thing"). I also have certified instructors who you it for authentication.

I haven't boxed, kicked, grappled or shot a firearm in about two years.

But, the last two years I was operating it was primarily MMA with weapons and firearms. The straighblast did have it's place tho (not the wing chun version).
 
20 years training and 12 years teaching, tons of injuries and change of heart... 
3/21/12 11:00 AM
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Siciliano
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If it's a real change of heart, how come you still post a lot on the martial arts forums? Not singling you out Demi, just wondering why the sudden hatred in training. Could be personal reasons though.

3/21/12 11:05 AM
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Siciliano
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Was looking at your clips. Seems like a lot of stuff that me and Marc Scott have trained in back in '04 when I was in LA. The elbow defense against the thrust. I worked with Jerry's crew during the Ray Floro seminar.

Thing though, I stopped using RedZone (Jerry's stuff, Ray's stuff and Marc's stuff. I found something way better than that.

You can say I have evolved. No offense to the 3 individuals - I value their instruction and friendship but like I said, I found something better.
3/21/12 8:52 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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Edited: 03/22/12 9:54 AM
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Siciliano - If it's a real change of heart, how come you still post a lot on the martial arts forums? Not singling you out Demi, just wondering why the sudden hatred in training. Could be personal reasons though.


I 'm very interested in "community" and "connectivity" with seekers. I'm always willing to help BUT I do have MY OPINIONS and the things that have become MY TRUTH are informed by my experiences.

No "hatred" of training. I'm just "not afraid anymore". That's why I no longer carry a fierarm or even consider the need to train (after 20+ years of training and 12+ years of teaching).

I'll respond in greater detail later. Right now I'm BBQ'ing Chix wings and then I host a 20's and 30's bible study on Wednesdays...

Cheers and Jeers...
 

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