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JKD UnderGround >> Basic Blade Concepts


3/19/12 8:23 PM
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Siciliano
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Here are some cool clips to get you started. Just stumbled on these on youtube. There's a lot of similarity with Kenjutsu and the Dos Manos Solo Espada system of my chosen FMA style. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPg5RZle2Fs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D_QJI3EUEw&feature=related
5/25/12 2:45 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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If you want to learn how to use the blade, study with a butcher, or with a cane cutter/harvester. IOW, someone who lives with and uses their knife in a job.


5/25/12 9:55 PM
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jrrrrr
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A butcher can show you where and how to cut and give you practice in getting a proper slice or stab.
Strategy and tactics needs a bit more in the way of instruction.
Something like FMA has a lot of fun/functional drills to play with in developing skills/attributes.
5/26/12 2:15 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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jrrrrr - A butcher can show you where and how to cut and give you practice in getting a proper slice or stab.
Strategy and tactics needs a bit more in the way of instruction.
Something like FMA has a lot of fun/functional drills to play with in developing skills/attributes.
What are the tactics and strategies you need to kill with a blade? Can you detail the framework?
 
5/26/12 4:18 PM
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Paul Hopkins
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why would anyone want to teach, or for that matter learn, tactics and strategies to kill with a blade?


5/26/12 6:37 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Paul Hopkins - why would anyone want to teach, or for that matter learn, tactics and strategies to kill with a blade?

For one thing to prevent having them used on you. Why would someone want to learn combat pistol craft? Why not just call the cops? Because just having a gun (or a knife) does not mean you know how to fight with it. Does not mean you know how to train to fight with it. But a lot of people carry a knife and fantasize using it in SD and have no idea what that means. So another reason to know what fighting with a knife entails is so you realize it's better not to ever use it.

5/26/12 7:03 PM
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lloydmtz
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"Because just having a gun (or a knife) does not mean you know how to fight with it"

I'm sure a lot of people living in certain neighbor 'hoods' in this Country would beg to differ.
5/26/12 10:07 PM
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jrrrrr
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1 - My understanding of self defense is;
AWARENESS (of environment and those around you)
SELF AWARENESS (are you sober,adding fuel to the problem)
AVOIDANCE (deescalation,getting away from problem)
and only the last step is ACTION (chaos - you never really want to get into a real fight).
2 - For SD issue, if you are depending on some type of weapon to keep you/loved ones alive in violent situation, you should be training with it (as well as unarmed training) as if your life will depend on it.
3 - Don't fill your head or heart with violence/hate. Don't look for violence to be your only answer when it is not needed.

4 - strategies and tactics for knife -
My main training with blade is FMA based.
A - footwork and body movement - sidestepping, move at angles to attack, shifting body quickly.
B - getting a feeling for different angles of attack. i say "getting a feeling" because no two people attack the same way,same energy.
C - cut whats closest and work in. Do so using foorwork and body movement.Cut into attack as well as passing the attack.
C1 - Be precise with you attack - know what/why you are attacking and don't use big movements. Let the knife work... Don't have a not sharp knife.
d- Defense - knife tapping drills are beginning.
E - Did I mention how important footwork and body movement were...???
F - Did I mention you never want to have to be near a knife in a real situation? The training is cool as heck, but you have to be a bit of an idiot to ever want to get into a real fight.
Real fights are dangerous... I bruise easily and we all cut and bleed all too easily as well..
5/27/12 12:24 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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lloydmtz - "Because just having a gun (or a knife) does not mean you know how to fight with it"

I'm sure a lot of people living in certain neighbor 'hoods' in this Country would beg to differ.
Maybe you aren't thinking about what it means to fight with a gun. Clearing a house, for example. Some people may carry a gun, rarely shoot it and think they have a ready-made solution for any SD situation. Actually a gun (or knife) is one of the last resorts in SD situations. Gang-bangers and thugs are not what I'm talking about - they're just foolhardy and full of bravado. That doesn't mean skill though they may have successfully killed people.
 
5/27/12 12:27 PM
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jrrrrr - 1 - My understanding of self defense is;
AWARENESS (of environment and those around you)
SELF AWARENESS (are you sober,adding fuel to the problem)
AVOIDANCE (deescalation,getting away from problem)
and only the last step is ACTION (chaos - you never really want to get into a real fight).
2 - For SD issue, if you are depending on some type of weapon to keep you/loved ones alive in violent situation, you should be training with it (as well as unarmed training) as if your life will depend on it.
3 - Don't fill your head or heart with violence/hate. Don't look for violence to be your only answer when it is not needed.

4 - strategies and tactics for knife -
My main training with blade is FMA based.
A - footwork and body movement - sidestepping, move at angles to attack, shifting body quickly.
B - getting a feeling for different angles of attack. i say "getting a feeling" because no two people attack the same way,same energy.
C - cut whats closest and work in. Do so using foorwork and body movement.Cut into attack as well as passing the attack.
C1 - Be precise with you attack - know what/why you are attacking and don't use big movements. Let the knife work... Don't have a not sharp knife.
d- Defense - knife tapping drills are beginning.
E - Did I mention how important footwork and body movement were...???
F - Did I mention you never want to have to be near a knife in a real situation? The training is cool as heck, but you have to be a bit of an idiot to ever want to get into a real fight.
Real fights are dangerous... I bruise easily and we all cut and bleed all too easily as well..
Good reply.

Consider when does situational awareness fail? Usually when you need it most.

You did mention footwork, but there is a specific type of footwork which best enables fighting with a blade. A key factor is the left foot (or non-dominant foot).

Agree on training being fun, using not fun at all. In today's environment with STDs and AIDS the last thing you want is someone's blood on you.

 
6/5/12 12:34 PM
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Epa
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WidespreadPanic - 
jrrrrr - 1 - My understanding of self defense is;
AWARENESS (of environment and those around you)
SELF AWARENESS (are you sober,adding fuel to the problem)
AVOIDANCE (deescalation,getting away from problem)
and only the last step is ACTION (chaos - you never really want to get into a real fight).
2 - For SD issue, if you are depending on some type of weapon to keep you/loved ones alive in violent situation, you should be training with it (as well as unarmed training) as if your life will depend on it.
3 - Don't fill your head or heart with violence/hate. Don't look for violence to be your only answer when it is not needed.

4 - strategies and tactics for knife -
My main training with blade is FMA based.
A - footwork and body movement - sidestepping, move at angles to attack, shifting body quickly.
B - getting a feeling for different angles of attack. i say "getting a feeling" because no two people attack the same way,same energy.
C - cut whats closest and work in. Do so using foorwork and body movement.Cut into attack as well as passing the attack.
C1 - Be precise with you attack - know what/why you are attacking and don't use big movements. Let the knife work... Don't have a not sharp knife.
d- Defense - knife tapping drills are beginning.
E - Did I mention how important footwork and body movement were...???
F - Did I mention you never want to have to be near a knife in a real situation? The training is cool as heck, but you have to be a bit of an idiot to ever want to get into a real fight.
Real fights are dangerous... I bruise easily and we all cut and bleed all too easily as well..
Good reply.

Consider when does situational awareness fail? Usually when you need it most.

You did mention footwork, but there is a specific type of footwork which best enables fighting with a blade. A key factor is the left foot (or non-dominant foot).

Agree on training being fun, using not fun at all. In today's environment with STDs and AIDS the last thing you want is someone's blood on you.

 


I'll take a shot at your footwork question WP. This may be a little rambly because it has to tie in how I think about range. With a short weapon like knife, I tend to think about two ranges contact where you can reach out and touch the person's body with their hand (or closer) and non-contact (further away).

Contact range is where things are highest risk and the speed of the knife really becomes difficult to deal with even if you train it with resistance and aliveness. It's just chaotic and there is little margin for error. For a functional self defense system, assuming you are in an environment with adequate space the preference would be longer range tactics (tight motions described by jrrr, cutting at the closest target, etc) because it's lower risk.

These long range tactics are built on sound footwork and body motion (delivery system). The goal of the footwork is to maintain a longer range with knife attacks, occasionally step in to take advantage of openings, and have the ability to retreat again. I've seen different structures that can accomplish this, but my go to is essentially boxing footwork, bent knee stance supporting by shuffling steps that maintain your stance and allow you to move in any of the cardinal directions and to circle.

For someone with less training time/experience, I would say focus on always having the weapon in the lead and maintaining that stance. For people with more time, I would say learn to fight out of both leads and switch.

The alive hand lead opens up crashing opportunities to control the opponent's weapon and gives you more flexibility. Of course, the crashing needs its own supporting footwork. In this case, I've seen fencing style lunges (with a bent rear leg) used effectively though I prefer a take-off like they use in Pekiti Tirsia (or DBMA).

This also requires more contact range training, which takes longer to build functional skill in my experience. For me the base skills are dagger tapping skills and modified clinching where the alive hand plays a major role.

I'd be curious to hear more about your ideas on the non-dominant foot.
6/10/12 12:01 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Epa, think about what aspects of knife work you can do with aliveness. You can't train the no contact range very effectively. You can train the contact range, which includes wrist control set ups, deployment prevention, various ground fighting aspects.

I like the work that Karl Tanswell does. (Google Tanswell knife fighting) His S.T.A.B. program is good.


6/11/12 11:21 AM
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Epa
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WP, I think we may have some confusion of terms. The way I'm using no contact range, it's like long/medium range in a lot of FMA. You can drill in it with aliveness and spar in it (padded trainer, plastic, metal, shock knife, etc), with open rules or isolated types of sparring like hand targeting.

So I'm not really sure what you're referring to. STAB is a good program along with Marc Denny's die less often.
6/11/12 4:09 PM
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jrrrrr
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To keep things rolling..
I'll steal some terms from DBMA/FMA and some other stuff I have trained in.

1Non-contact range, what DBMA would call snake range - neither person has contact with the other. Both parties are looking for entry. In self defense, this is the point where you should be looking for the exit...

2knife to knife range - an outer range where the blade can make contact and because its such a short range, some types of kicks might be able to be used. Fma would call largo, fencing type structure can be used

3standing body contact range - knife tapping, jt locks throws,quick strikes/kicks on the low line, etc can be used as well as knife itself. medio/quarto, not sure if fencing structure would be applicable at this range...

4ground range - one or both participants are on ground. If both people still have knives, you both are bleeding out by now...

Am i missing a distinct range? Would you split standing body contact range with another range to differentiate? How would you handle the different ranges in training?
6/12/12 3:10 PM
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Stickgrappler
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slight digression/addendum

DBMA's snake range has nothing to do with snake disarms... it's named after the snakey stick moves of Eric "Top Dog" Knaus. it's also where you size up your opponent and analyze his structure and the strengths/weaknesses of the structure.

to bring snake range back on the thread topic, it can be where you check your 'opponent's' structure? regular grip? reverse grip? edge out? edge in? knife leading? knife in rear? etc
6/13/12 11:58 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 06/13/12 11:59 AM
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The further away you move from the contact range, i.e. grappling, wrestling, throwing, clinch fighting, the harder it is to achieve aliveness. Why? You risk harming your partner because you can't be as fully resisting, you need more gear, you are unable to do much flow, because you can't perceive your opponent's movements. In grappling and other hands on ranges you can feel the opponent move. You can resist fully, using the tap and catch and release.

It's true that in the outer no-contact (boxing) ranges, as you improve, your partner improves, you can strip off the gear in stickfighting to the point that the Dogbrothers did, only a fencing mask and light gloves. In boxing you can go to 4oz gloves, no head gear, but you still can't really load up to the head and spar again the next day. You can't routinely do sparring to the knockout, though you can in a real match.

With blade work, all outside work is highly random, even in a closer proximity, it's very chaotic, and you can make swipes and sometimes 'score', but you really can't learn a lot after a certain plateau. For one thing, with 8" blades, with dulled blades, with chalked blades, it's still moving too quickly. You see the experts technique devolve when you use live blades, and it's not like the stuff you do even with the shock knife.

So, where can you still use blades, still use high resistance, still have good aliveness. You do it with wrist control, deployment prevention, and you also learn general BJJ grappling moves, with modifications. You learn where to carry your blade, you do start and stop drills from wrist control. You don't start from no-contact - it's too chaotic. Get good at wrist control against the blade (where Karl Tanswell starts, two arms against one, forcing the blade to the ground for a step on disarm), and you can then move into range and find yourself in very familiar territory. Of course there's the big 'IF' you get that wrist control. But once you do, you are ahead of the game if you've done a lot of STAB type drilling in that range. Prevent deployment using BJJ moves, learn where to carry to achieve best deployment yourself.

 
6/17/12 4:42 PM
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jrrrrr
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dudes, had an FMA class this morning, great stuff. Knife tapping from knife tapping to passing for angles 1,2 and 5... fun stuff for sure.
6/17/12 6:24 PM
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Edited: 06/17/12 6:25 PM
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lloydmtz - "Because just having a gun (or a knife) does not mean you know how to fight with it"

I'm sure a lot of people living in certain neighbor 'hoods' in this Country would beg to differ.
What I'm talking about are:
1. basic concepts, how to deploy, how to seek space, time and cover and concealment
2. How to clear a house
3. How to partner up and cover each other and not sweeping your partner, muzzle control
4. Sight picture, front sight on target, double tap, check 180 in ready position, reload and holster.
5. Shooting from odd positions, basic combat pistol craft.

Youtube and google on Thunder Ranch and look at some of his videos.

Though having two hands and two feet means you might be able to throw a punch, but to have skill you need training, understanding range, transitions, standup, clinch, takedown and groundfighting. Likewise just having a handgun, sword, spear, knife doesn't mean you know how to fight with it. Can a crazy woman with a knife or a prisoner with a shiv kill you? Sure. But you rarely have one of those when you get attacked, mostly because they're too heavy to carry around. :)

  
6/18/12 12:16 PM
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Siciliano
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WP,

I'm a chef and I can cut a whole lamb carcass using a small boning knife. I don't know where you came up with that advice.

Paul Hopkins,

Same reason why people train guns, chokes, armbars, thai kicks, etc.
6/19/12 10:36 PM
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Epa
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@WP

I thought that might be what you were referring to. That is one thing I envy about grapplers, that they can train their system balls to the wall more safely than striking or weapon based striking systems. In that sense, there is an advantage to a close range/grappling based approach.

However, from your post above I interpreted what you were saying as don't bother with non-contact (or whatever people want to call it) type ranges. That seemed flawed to me. If you don't put at least a certain level of time into that range you have a lower probability of safely entering into the range where you would be most effective.

As an analogy, it would be like saying you can't fully train (spar for the KO) with your stand up for mma so you should dedicate your time to grappling which you can fully train (100% resistance). I think the more interesting and productive question is what proportion of training time should you spend in each range.

I can see an argument based on your logic that a majority of time should be focused on close range, with some time spent on bridging from non-contact to contact, and some time spent on pure non-contact (say 60/20/20). A discussion like that really gets into the details of a training approach where you can weigh the investment vs. the reward, which I think is the core of your point.

Thanks for the response

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