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UnderGround Forums >> Shamrock fires back at White over fighter pay


3/20/12 9:19 AM
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Rantuckjr
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onepunchJD - Guys who LITERALLY made modern MMA what it is today... Guys like Ken Shamrock, Dan Severn, Mark Coleman, etc... should be getting a nice check in the mail after EVERY UFC PPV... PERIOD.

How many noobs realize that Ken Shamrock actually fought in the FIRST Pancrase event, AND the FIRST UFC, and he was a CHAMPION of both promptions, AND beat and had rivalries with the TOP fighters of BOTH promotions?

Only the Gracie family can rival Ken Shamrock when it comes to having a significant influence on modern MMA.

Ken Shamrock was helping to create what would become "MMA", before Dana White had ever even heard of it.

Both Ken and Frank Shamrock, got HALF of a page in the UFC Encyclopeia... while Dan Severn and Royce Gracie, among others, got 4 pages!!!

Ken has literally bled for this sport. He has fought battles both in and out of the cage/ring to support MMA as we know it. He has debated with politicians, appeared on talk shows and in magazines... and even brought HUGE publicity through the "dark years" with his WWF career. He did all of this BEFORE it was popular, without knowing wether MMA would take off, or fail... just because he LOVES the sport he LITERALLY helped to create on a global scale.

Ken Shamrock is not perfect. He has made mistakes in his life, just like EVERY other human being. BUT.. he is either directly or in-directly responsible for a BIG part of NHB/MMA history... and is a BIG part of the reason why we are all posting on a forum like this today.

EVERY modern MMA fighter is standing on the shoulders of the pioneers of this sport. The old-school founders of MMA were a diferent breed of man... fighting with more risk, for less gain. They stepped into the ring/cage with full confidence in their individual abilities, and without full understanding of their opponents. They did all of this in an almost "underground" sport, without big time sponsers, and without big time pay... (at least not on a regular basis).

Not only did the pioneers of MMA push the popularity of the sport through it's "hardcore" fans... They also created the learning curve of MMA technique that every "modern" fighter is currently learning. It was a process of trial and error, taking place over years of REAL "NHB" fights, and passed along through dubbed VHS recordings, from fan to fighter to fan, like a valuable treasure... and passed along on sweaty mats, in unknown "Dojos" across the world, by real fighters like the guys in Ken Shamrock's Lions Den... that truly made MMA in to the mainstream "sport" it is today.

Ken Shamrock took Zuffa to court... and he lost. Thats it, and thats all. It's time to put the disagreements in the past, and give a true legend of MMA his due credit. Zuffa/Dana can only make themselves look better by taking the high road in situations like this.

If it were not for guys like Ken Shamrock... there would be no Zuffa owned UFC. Modern "MMA" might consist of underground events in Japan, and on native reservations in the U.S.

Newer fans just don't know, what a long road it was to the double edged sword that is "mainstream MMA".

The evolution of modern MMA has been, IMHO, one of the most exciting and interesting aspects of human history. I make this statement with true passion, and zero exaggeration.

Ken Shamrock is one of the most important parts of that history. As much as Zuffa/Dana have done for MMA... they owe Ken Shamrock, among others, a lifetime of respect and gratitude for their success.


Bravo. Brought a tear to my eye.
3/20/12 9:20 AM
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UGCTT_LnPninja
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RyannVonDoom - 
JohnnyChrist - Whatever happens, I hope this thread doesn't become too disrespectful to a man who has done more for this sport than most.


It will. Anyone who goes against Zuffa will feel their wrath.

 Funny how you cannot know who J.Christ was talking about, but assume it was Shammy not Dana. ;-)
3/20/12 9:30 AM
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UGCTT_LnPninja
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 This thread is amazing. Anyone who offers anything that does not 100% agree with Ken's stance gets called a n00b and a shill. Pathetic that you "old skool" wannabe fucks cannot even have an intelligent discussion about it, or see BOTH sides of the situation. 

As expected everything has to be taken to the extreme, and everyone who even slightly defends Dana gets attacked. Sad. 

Ken Shamrock (and Frank) said and did some shitty things too  guys. There is a reasson they got blackballed in the encyclopedia (who the fuck really cares about a damn book anyhow). 

LMAO@ the guy who wrote the FRAT. NOt for the FRAT because it was actually very nice, but for claiming that Shammy/Severn should get royalties for every UFC PPV. That is some funny shit.
3/20/12 10:21 AM
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Chris
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 oh boy...
3/20/12 10:26 AM
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disbeliever
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Nothing he said was un-true. Guys like Chuck, Tito and Ken carried the sport and allowed it to stay relevant long enough to grow. Without them, the UFC could have died.

It doesn't surprise me he does not get credit he deserves though. We have people like Mask in the UFC HOF, yet when Helio died he was not put into it. Really? Without the gracies, BJJ or Helio, the UFC would never have existed in the first place.

I think the UFC and Dana like to think only about the present and future, but forget the past either intentionally or just out of ignorance. Its great what Dana and company have done with the UFC, but keep it real and give props to the people who CREATED the UFC and kept it alive so it could grow
3/20/12 10:30 AM
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Garv
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disbeliever - Nothing he said was un-true. Guys like Chuck, Tito and Ken carried the sport and allowed it to stay relevant long enough to grow. Without them, the UFC could have died.

It doesn't surprise me he does not get credit he deserves though. We have people like Mask in the UFC HOF, yet when Helio died he was not put into it. Really? Without the gracies, BJJ or Helio, the UFC would never have existed in the first place.

I think the UFC and Dana like to think only about the present and future, but forget the past either intentionally or just out of ignorance. Its great what Dana and company have done with the UFC, but keep it real and give props to the people who CREATED the UFC and kept it alive so it could grow
This
 
3/20/12 10:40 AM
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Mr.Negative
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disbeliever - Nothing he said was un-true. Guys like Chuck, Tito and Ken carried the sport and allowed it to stay relevant long enough to grow. Without them, the UFC could have died.

It doesn't surprise me he does not get credit he deserves though. We have people like Mask in the UFC HOF, yet when Helio died he was not put into it. Really? Without the gracies, BJJ or Helio, the UFC would never have existed in the first place.

I think the UFC and Dana like to think only about the present and future, but forget the past either intentionally or just out of ignorance. Its great what Dana and company have done with the UFC, but keep it real and give props to the people who CREATED the UFC and kept it alive so it could grow
stop living in the past. seriously. maybe if the gracies played ball and didn't make outrageous requests and completely put down the UFC every chance they got than MAYBE i could see the UFC putting them in the HOF. i just don't understand how/why you all expect DFW and the Fertittas to stand there, smile and shake hands with a family that has gone out of their way to slam what they do.

it seems like all the people that want to glamorize the past all fail to also remember how shitty it was at times.

as far as ken shamrock goes, the guy has a horrific record over the last 10+ years and some of the guys championing him on this thread were ridiculing him when he got his last fight in the UFC. countless threads were made about his "worked" fight with Franklin and how undeserving he was to be in their with Tito for the 3rd time after Tito had wrecked him twice already. i mean, just because some of you absolutely hate DFW doesn't mean you have to suspend all ability to think logically and all of sudden start championing a guy that not just a year or so ago you were running into the ground.

and if Ken is going to demand that a PRIVATE company open their books and show the profit/loss they've made in the years he was working for them why doesn't he open HIS books and show the general public where his money has gone. it would be nice to see where the millions of dollars he's made has been pissed away.

but he's not going to do that. hell, if he's so pissed about the money he DIDN'T make why doesn't he go after the WWF/WWE? they were making WAY more money than the UFC while he worked wrestling matches and by all accounts paid him less while doing far more harm to his body....soooooo, wheres the outrage? oh, thats right, its easier to get on the air and slam the UFC (the current online punching bag) than it is to go after mcmahon and the WWE....
3/20/12 10:41 AM
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JohnnyChrist
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UGCTT_LnPninja - 
RyannVonDoom - 
JohnnyChrist - Whatever happens, I hope this thread doesn't become too disrespectful to a man who has done more for this sport than most.


It will. Anyone who goes against Zuffa will feel their wrath.

 Funny how you cannot know who J.Christ was talking about, but assume it was Shammy not Dana. ;-)


OOPS hahaha I meant Ken Shamrock, but I assume most people figured that ;)
3/20/12 10:47 AM
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disbeliever
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Mr.Negative - 
disbeliever - Nothing he said was un-true. Guys like Chuck, Tito and Ken carried the sport and allowed it to stay relevant long enough to grow. Without them, the UFC could have died.

It doesn't surprise me he does not get credit he deserves though. We have people like Mask in the UFC HOF, yet when Helio died he was not put into it. Really? Without the gracies, BJJ or Helio, the UFC would never have existed in the first place.

I think the UFC and Dana like to think only about the present and future, but forget the past either intentionally or just out of ignorance. Its great what Dana and company have done with the UFC, but keep it real and give props to the people who CREATED the UFC and kept it alive so it could grow
stop living in the past. seriously. maybe if the gracies played ball and didn't make outrageous requests and completely put down the UFC every chance they got than MAYBE i could see the UFC putting them in the HOF. i just don't understand how/why you all expect DFW and the Fertittas to stand there, smile and shake hands with a family that has gone out of their way to slam what they do.

it seems like all the people that want to glamorize the past all fail to also remember how shitty it was at times.

as far as ken shamrock goes, the guy has a horrific record over the last 10+ years and some of the guys championing him on this thread were ridiculing him when he got his last fight in the UFC. countless threads were made about his "worked" fight with Franklin and how undeserving he was to be in their with Tito for the 3rd time after Tito had wrecked him twice already. i mean, just because some of you absolutely hate DFW doesn't mean you have to suspend all ability to think logically and all of sudden start championing a guy that not just a year or so ago you were running into the ground.

and if Ken is going to demand that a PRIVATE company open their books and show the profit/loss they've made in the years he was working for them why doesn't he open HIS books and show the general public where his money has gone. it would be nice to see where the millions of dollars he's made has been pissed away.

but he's not going to do that. hell, if he's so pissed about the money he DIDN'T make why doesn't he go after the WWF/WWE? they were making WAY more money than the UFC while he worked wrestling matches and by all accounts paid him less while doing far more harm to his body....soooooo, wheres the outrage? oh, thats right, its easier to get on the air and slam the UFC (the current online punching bag) than it is to go after mcmahon and the WWE....


Your screen name suites you perfectly.

Nothing I said is inaccurate in anyway.

Lol @ stop living in the past. Without the past we wouldnt have the present or future. The gracies have issues with the way the UFC has gone, so we should deny they CREATED the UFC and a sport? That makes sense. Lets put people into a "HOF", but exclude the creator of the sport because? Because Dana doesn't like them? Awesome.
3/20/12 10:50 AM
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PrestigeWorldwide
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sunnyko -
un3rgr0und - If you're looking to Ken Shamrock to validate some theory you have about the UFC or Dana White you have already lost the argument

Ken Shamrock is so far off his rocker its ridiculous, some of his interviews are nutty as hell
Zuffa Zombie.

The thing you're missing that shammy is saying is that, Dana white is getting paid as if he did all of the work... And that the fighters haven't done shit compared to DFW. Shammy is simply saying bullshit! The fighters including shammy busted their asses to get the UFC to where it is today... Not JUST Dana. Dana had all of the Zuffa Zombies believing UFC is where it is because HE (Dana) worked his ass off meanwhile not giving credit to others. Phone Post
Agreed...Dana never gives credit to any of the pioneers except for Chuck but even he's not a true pioneer. Yea they created a HOF which is cool, but in all of Dana's interviews, he only gives credit to Joe Silva, Joe Rogan, Frank and Lorenzo, and of course himself.

Shamrock is a basket case don't get me wrong, but he does have a point...ZUFFA didn't give him anything, he earned all of it!! Phone Post
3/20/12 10:53 AM
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UGCTT_LnPninja
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RowdyTookMyArm - 
UGCTT_LnPninja -  This thread is amazing. Anyone who offers anything that does not 100% agree with Ken's stance gets called a n00b and a shill. Pathetic that you "old skool" wannabe fucks cannot even have an intelligent discussion about it, or see BOTH sides of the situation. 

As expected everything has to be taken to the extreme, and everyone who even slightly defends Dana gets attacked. Sad. 

Ken Shamrock (and Frank) said and did some shitty things too  guys. There is a reasson they got blackballed in the encyclopedia (who the fuck really cares about a damn book anyhow). 

LMAO@ the guy who wrote the FRAT. NOt for the FRAT because it was actually very nice, but for claiming that Shammy/Severn should get royalties for every UFC PPV. That is some funny shit.
lmao @ this babble

 Translation: I have no intelligent response.

Same shit, another day on the UG. 
3/20/12 10:57 AM
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DamnSevern
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Funaki Masakatsu #1 -  I wish Dana would just say, "fuck it Ken, we had our beef and I don't like the things you said but you did so much good for this company and the UFC, we wouldn't be at the level we are at today without you, let's squash this right now and get back on good terms." Phone Post

 this
3/20/12 11:08 AM
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Mr.Negative
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disbeliever - 
Mr.Negative - 
disbeliever - Nothing he said was un-true. Guys like Chuck, Tito and Ken carried the sport and allowed it to stay relevant long enough to grow. Without them, the UFC could have died.

It doesn't surprise me he does not get credit he deserves though. We have people like Mask in the UFC HOF, yet when Helio died he was not put into it. Really? Without the gracies, BJJ or Helio, the UFC would never have existed in the first place.

I think the UFC and Dana like to think only about the present and future, but forget the past either intentionally or just out of ignorance. Its great what Dana and company have done with the UFC, but keep it real and give props to the people who CREATED the UFC and kept it alive so it could grow
stop living in the past. seriously. maybe if the gracies played ball and didn't make outrageous requests and completely put down the UFC every chance they got than MAYBE i could see the UFC putting them in the HOF. i just don't understand how/why you all expect DFW and the Fertittas to stand there, smile and shake hands with a family that has gone out of their way to slam what they do.

it seems like all the people that want to glamorize the past all fail to also remember how shitty it was at times.

as far as ken shamrock goes, the guy has a horrific record over the last 10+ years and some of the guys championing him on this thread were ridiculing him when he got his last fight in the UFC. countless threads were made about his "worked" fight with Franklin and how undeserving he was to be in their with Tito for the 3rd time after Tito had wrecked him twice already. i mean, just because some of you absolutely hate DFW doesn't mean you have to suspend all ability to think logically and all of sudden start championing a guy that not just a year or so ago you were running into the ground.

and if Ken is going to demand that a PRIVATE company open their books and show the profit/loss they've made in the years he was working for them why doesn't he open HIS books and show the general public where his money has gone. it would be nice to see where the millions of dollars he's made has been pissed away.

but he's not going to do that. hell, if he's so pissed about the money he DIDN'T make why doesn't he go after the WWF/WWE? they were making WAY more money than the UFC while he worked wrestling matches and by all accounts paid him less while doing far more harm to his body....soooooo, wheres the outrage? oh, thats right, its easier to get on the air and slam the UFC (the current online punching bag) than it is to go after mcmahon and the WWE....


Your screen name suites you perfectly.

Nothing I said is inaccurate in anyway.

Lol @ stop living in the past. Without the past we wouldnt have the present or future. The gracies have issues with the way the UFC has gone, so we should deny they CREATED the UFC and a sport? That makes sense. Lets put people into a "HOF", but exclude the creator of the sport because? Because Dana doesn't like them? Awesome.
differences of opinion. all the gracies did was create an avenue to market gracie bjj. period. prior to the first UFC in 1993 you had vale tudo events as early as the 1920's that were NOT run by the Gracie Family. hell, prior to the UFC's first event in Japan there was RINGS (not 100% MMA, but still prior to the UFC). but the gracies started it all right? fact of the matter is they just had the better marketing and timing. 

as far as respecting the past, thats fine. there are countless MMA pioneers that deserve respect and a spot in the HOF but aren't there yet. 

AND, Royce IS in the HOF, deservedly so. what, do you want EVERY member of the Gracie family in the HOF? guys that never fought in the UFC or had anything to do with the UFC? hell, Rorion is more deserving of a spot in the UFC Than Helio is.


 
3/20/12 11:17 AM
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disbeliever
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Mr.Negative - 
disbeliever - 
Mr.Negative - 
disbeliever - Nothing he said was un-true. Guys like Chuck, Tito and Ken carried the sport and allowed it to stay relevant long enough to grow. Without them, the UFC could have died.

It doesn't surprise me he does not get credit he deserves though. We have people like Mask in the UFC HOF, yet when Helio died he was not put into it. Really? Without the gracies, BJJ or Helio, the UFC would never have existed in the first place.

I think the UFC and Dana like to think only about the present and future, but forget the past either intentionally or just out of ignorance. Its great what Dana and company have done with the UFC, but keep it real and give props to the people who CREATED the UFC and kept it alive so it could grow
stop living in the past. seriously. maybe if the gracies played ball and didn't make outrageous requests and completely put down the UFC every chance they got than MAYBE i could see the UFC putting them in the HOF. i just don't understand how/why you all expect DFW and the Fertittas to stand there, smile and shake hands with a family that has gone out of their way to slam what they do.

it seems like all the people that want to glamorize the past all fail to also remember how shitty it was at times.

as far as ken shamrock goes, the guy has a horrific record over the last 10+ years and some of the guys championing him on this thread were ridiculing him when he got his last fight in the UFC. countless threads were made about his "worked" fight with Franklin and how undeserving he was to be in their with Tito for the 3rd time after Tito had wrecked him twice already. i mean, just because some of you absolutely hate DFW doesn't mean you have to suspend all ability to think logically and all of sudden start championing a guy that not just a year or so ago you were running into the ground.

and if Ken is going to demand that a PRIVATE company open their books and show the profit/loss they've made in the years he was working for them why doesn't he open HIS books and show the general public where his money has gone. it would be nice to see where the millions of dollars he's made has been pissed away.

but he's not going to do that. hell, if he's so pissed about the money he DIDN'T make why doesn't he go after the WWF/WWE? they were making WAY more money than the UFC while he worked wrestling matches and by all accounts paid him less while doing far more harm to his body....soooooo, wheres the outrage? oh, thats right, its easier to get on the air and slam the UFC (the current online punching bag) than it is to go after mcmahon and the WWE....


Your screen name suites you perfectly.

Nothing I said is inaccurate in anyway.

Lol @ stop living in the past. Without the past we wouldnt have the present or future. The gracies have issues with the way the UFC has gone, so we should deny they CREATED the UFC and a sport? That makes sense. Lets put people into a "HOF", but exclude the creator of the sport because? Because Dana doesn't like them? Awesome.
differences of opinion. all the gracies did was create an avenue to market gracie bjj. period. prior to the first UFC in 1993 you had vale tudo events as early as the 1920's that were NOT run by the Gracie Family. hell, prior to the UFC's first event in Japan there was RINGS (not 100% MMA, but still prior to the UFC). but the gracies started it all right? fact of the matter is they just had the better marketing and timing. 

as far as respecting the past, thats fine. there are countless MMA pioneers that deserve respect and a spot in the HOF but aren't there yet. 

AND, Royce IS in the HOF, deservedly so. what, do you want EVERY member of the Gracie family in the HOF? guys that never fought in the UFC or had anything to do with the UFC? hell, Rorion is more deserving of a spot in the UFC Than Helio is.


 


All you like to do is argue. Show me where I said the gracies created MMA or Vale Tudo. Why even bring them up? I said the gracies created the UFC and they did. Your entire rabble in that paragraph was based on nothing I said, and words you put in my mouth.

Did I ever say there were people not in the HOF that shouldn't be? Was I suppose to list out everyone I would like to see in the UFC to give you one less thing to complain about?

Again, did I ever say every Gracie member should be in the UFC HOF? I don't believe I did.

You got my point and obviously agree with it, as did others. Stop trying to argue or put words in my mouth
3/20/12 11:30 AM
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Mr.Negative
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disbeliever - 
Mr.Negative - 
disbeliever - 
Mr.Negative - 
disbeliever - Nothing he said was un-true. Guys like Chuck, Tito and Ken carried the sport and allowed it to stay relevant long enough to grow. Without them, the UFC could have died.

It doesn't surprise me he does not get credit he deserves though. We have people like Mask in the UFC HOF, yet when Helio died he was not put into it. Really? Without the gracies, BJJ or Helio, the UFC would never have existed in the first place.

I think the UFC and Dana like to think only about the present and future, but forget the past either intentionally or just out of ignorance. Its great what Dana and company have done with the UFC, but keep it real and give props to the people who CREATED the UFC and kept it alive so it could grow
stop living in the past. seriously. maybe if the gracies played ball and didn't make outrageous requests and completely put down the UFC every chance they got than MAYBE i could see the UFC putting them in the HOF. i just don't understand how/why you all expect DFW and the Fertittas to stand there, smile and shake hands with a family that has gone out of their way to slam what they do.

it seems like all the people that want to glamorize the past all fail to also remember how shitty it was at times.

as far as ken shamrock goes, the guy has a horrific record over the last 10+ years and some of the guys championing him on this thread were ridiculing him when he got his last fight in the UFC. countless threads were made about his "worked" fight with Franklin and how undeserving he was to be in their with Tito for the 3rd time after Tito had wrecked him twice already. i mean, just because some of you absolutely hate DFW doesn't mean you have to suspend all ability to think logically and all of sudden start championing a guy that not just a year or so ago you were running into the ground.

and if Ken is going to demand that a PRIVATE company open their books and show the profit/loss they've made in the years he was working for them why doesn't he open HIS books and show the general public where his money has gone. it would be nice to see where the millions of dollars he's made has been pissed away.

but he's not going to do that. hell, if he's so pissed about the money he DIDN'T make why doesn't he go after the WWF/WWE? they were making WAY more money than the UFC while he worked wrestling matches and by all accounts paid him less while doing far more harm to his body....soooooo, wheres the outrage? oh, thats right, its easier to get on the air and slam the UFC (the current online punching bag) than it is to go after mcmahon and the WWE....


Your screen name suites you perfectly.

Nothing I said is inaccurate in anyway.

Lol @ stop living in the past. Without the past we wouldnt have the present or future. The gracies have issues with the way the UFC has gone, so we should deny they CREATED the UFC and a sport? That makes sense. Lets put people into a "HOF", but exclude the creator of the sport because? Because Dana doesn't like them? Awesome.
differences of opinion. all the gracies did was create an avenue to market gracie bjj. period. prior to the first UFC in 1993 you had vale tudo events as early as the 1920's that were NOT run by the Gracie Family. hell, prior to the UFC's first event in Japan there was RINGS (not 100% MMA, but still prior to the UFC). but the gracies started it all right? fact of the matter is they just had the better marketing and timing. 

as far as respecting the past, thats fine. there are countless MMA pioneers that deserve respect and a spot in the HOF but aren't there yet. 

AND, Royce IS in the HOF, deservedly so. what, do you want EVERY member of the Gracie family in the HOF? guys that never fought in the UFC or had anything to do with the UFC? hell, Rorion is more deserving of a spot in the UFC Than Helio is.


 


All you like to do is argue.

same could be said of you. we just have two different opinions on the subject.

Show me where I said the gracies created MMA or Vale Tudo.

Uhhh, right here:

 so we should deny they CREATED the UFC and a sport

I bolded the "sport" part because if you're not implying they created mma or vale tudo, what sport were you referring to?

Why even bring them up? I said the gracies created the UFC and they did. Your entire rabble in that paragraph was based on nothing I said, and words you put in my mouth.

I was responding to what others said within in the context of that post.

Did I ever say there were people not in the HOF that shouldn't be? Was I suppose to list out everyone I would like to see in the UFC to give you one less thing to complain about?

not in the least, but implying that Helio Gracie should be in the UFC, when others have done FAR MORE to further the sport of MMA and push the UFC is insane and fanboyism at its finest.

Again, did I ever say every Gracie member should be in the UFC HOF? I don't believe I did.

no, you never said that, but again, by implying that Helio should be in (when really his most famous match is getting ragdolled by kimura) and Rorion shouldn't, or completely ignoring Rorion (and hell, by that extension Art Davie and John Milius) is ridiculous.

You got my point and obviously agree with it, as did others. \

what was your point? that Helio should be in the HOF? that the UFC should open its books? nope, don't agree on either issue.

Stop trying to argue or put words in my mouth.

the thought never crossed my mind.

 
3/20/12 11:32 AM
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mongo54
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 If fighters aren't happy with their pay they should look elsewhere, like ken did when he left the UFC to go to WWE.  Which by the way was a pretty critical time as the UFC was on the verge of bankruptcy.

So to sum it up for the mouth breathers, Ken bailed on the UFC to get paid, which is his perogative, but don't then discredit the people who put the money up to make the sport succeed.

There is no evidence the UFC would have survived without the Fertitas, there is plenty of evidence the UFC would survive without Ken Shamrock.  He fought so poorly against Tito that he should have been investigated for fraud.
3/20/12 11:38 AM
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disbeliever
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Mr.Negative - 
disbeliever - 
Mr.Negative - 
disbeliever - 
Mr.Negative - 
disbeliever - Nothing he said was un-true. Guys like Chuck, Tito and Ken carried the sport and allowed it to stay relevant long enough to grow. Without them, the UFC could have died.

It doesn't surprise me he does not get credit he deserves though. We have people like Mask in the UFC HOF, yet when Helio died he was not put into it. Really? Without the gracies, BJJ or Helio, the UFC would never have existed in the first place.

I think the UFC and Dana like to think only about the present and future, but forget the past either intentionally or just out of ignorance. Its great what Dana and company have done with the UFC, but keep it real and give props to the people who CREATED the UFC and kept it alive so it could grow
stop living in the past. seriously. maybe if the gracies played ball and didn't make outrageous requests and completely put down the UFC every chance they got than MAYBE i could see the UFC putting them in the HOF. i just don't understand how/why you all expect DFW and the Fertittas to stand there, smile and shake hands with a family that has gone out of their way to slam what they do.

it seems like all the people that want to glamorize the past all fail to also remember how shitty it was at times.

as far as ken shamrock goes, the guy has a horrific record over the last 10+ years and some of the guys championing him on this thread were ridiculing him when he got his last fight in the UFC. countless threads were made about his "worked" fight with Franklin and how undeserving he was to be in their with Tito for the 3rd time after Tito had wrecked him twice already. i mean, just because some of you absolutely hate DFW doesn't mean you have to suspend all ability to think logically and all of sudden start championing a guy that not just a year or so ago you were running into the ground.

and if Ken is going to demand that a PRIVATE company open their books and show the profit/loss they've made in the years he was working for them why doesn't he open HIS books and show the general public where his money has gone. it would be nice to see where the millions of dollars he's made has been pissed away.

but he's not going to do that. hell, if he's so pissed about the money he DIDN'T make why doesn't he go after the WWF/WWE? they were making WAY more money than the UFC while he worked wrestling matches and by all accounts paid him less while doing far more harm to his body....soooooo, wheres the outrage? oh, thats right, its easier to get on the air and slam the UFC (the current online punching bag) than it is to go after mcmahon and the WWE....


Your screen name suites you perfectly.

Nothing I said is inaccurate in anyway.

Lol @ stop living in the past. Without the past we wouldnt have the present or future. The gracies have issues with the way the UFC has gone, so we should deny they CREATED the UFC and a sport? That makes sense. Lets put people into a "HOF", but exclude the creator of the sport because? Because Dana doesn't like them? Awesome.
differences of opinion. all the gracies did was create an avenue to market gracie bjj. period. prior to the first UFC in 1993 you had vale tudo events as early as the 1920's that were NOT run by the Gracie Family. hell, prior to the UFC's first event in Japan there was RINGS (not 100% MMA, but still prior to the UFC). but the gracies started it all right? fact of the matter is they just had the better marketing and timing. 

as far as respecting the past, thats fine. there are countless MMA pioneers that deserve respect and a spot in the HOF but aren't there yet. 

AND, Royce IS in the HOF, deservedly so. what, do you want EVERY member of the Gracie family in the HOF? guys that never fought in the UFC or had anything to do with the UFC? hell, Rorion is more deserving of a spot in the UFC Than Helio is.


 


All you like to do is argue.

same could be said of you. we just have two different opinions on the subject.

Show me where I said the gracies created MMA or Vale Tudo.

Uhhh, right here:

 so we should deny they CREATED the UFC and a sport

I bolded the "sport" part because if you're not implying they created mma or vale tudo, what sport were you referring to?

Why even bring them up? I said the gracies created the UFC and they did. Your entire rabble in that paragraph was based on nothing I said, and words you put in my mouth.

I was responding to what others said within in the context of that post.

Did I ever say there were people not in the HOF that shouldn't be? Was I suppose to list out everyone I would like to see in the UFC to give you one less thing to complain about?

not in the least, but implying that Helio Gracie should be in the UFC, when others have done FAR MORE to further the sport of MMA and push the UFC is insane and fanboyism at its finest.

Again, did I ever say every Gracie member should be in the UFC HOF? I don't believe I did.

no, you never said that, but again, by implying that Helio should be in (when really his most famous match is getting ragdolled by kimura) and Rorion shouldn't, or completely ignoring Rorion (and hell, by that extension Art Davie and John Milius) is ridiculous.

You got my point and obviously agree with it, as did others. \

what was your point? that Helio should be in the HOF? that the UFC should open its books? nope, don't agree on either issue.

Stop trying to argue or put words in my mouth.

the thought never crossed my mind.

 


Same could be said of me? I made a post not directed at anyone, or quoting anyone, stating my opinion, and you show up to argue it and put words in my mouth. Yea, same could be said of me.

You accusing my thought that Helio should be in the HOF is "insane and fanboyism at its finest." shows your opinion does not matter. Fanboyism? Really? Please search through a decade of posts and find me 10 where i ever spoke about Helio. I have brought him up twice maybe three times, saying I think he should be in the HOF. 2 or 3 times in a decade is "fanboyism"? haha ok

What sport? Are you serious? The UFC. Prior to the UFC barely anyone in America knew what Vale Tudo was, or "Mixed Martial Arts". The UFC IS a sport in of itself now. Even your beloved Dana says so.

And again, should I list out all of the people I think should be in the HOF so you have a list? I mentioned Helio as an example. My mistake for not holding your hand with an entire list.

lol @ fanboyism and insanity.
3/20/12 12:07 PM
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Mr.Negative
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 get this through your head.

helio did not create the UFC.

helio did not create vale tudo.

royce is in the UFC HOF.

Rorion, Art Davie and John Milius, the creators of the UFC, are not in the UFC HOF. Helio has ZERO business in the UFC HOF.

hell, getting back to the focus of the thread, a case could be made that ken has no business in the UFC. considering that he left when things got tough (for more money of course) and didn't return until the money got better and then proceded to suck horribly imo doesn't guarantee oneself a spot in said HOF.

for example, not everyone who was on the 1927 yankees world series team is in the basball HOF. i mean, look at kens last 10-15 years in the sport:

1-4 in the UFC with his only win over a washed up Kimo.
since 2000 (when he came back from the WWF) he's 5-10 with the 5 victories over fighters with a W/L record of 57-96-3. here's the breakdown.

ivey- 30-46
clifton- 6-10
kimo- 10-7-1
adkins- 7-20-1
otsuka- 4-13

so, how again is guy deserving of a spot in the UFC? just because he was one of the original fighters? like i said, if we're going to apply the same logic to all sports, then why isn't the kicker from the 85 bears superbowl team in the NFL HOF? why isn't the 2nd baseman from the 86 mets in the HOF? they all helped their team get to and win the championship, why aren't they given the same honor as some of their teammates?
3/20/12 12:21 PM
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disbeliever
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Mr.Negative -  get this through your head.

helio did not create the UFC.

helio did not create vale tudo.

royce is in the UFC HOF.

Rorion, Art Davie and John Milius, the creators of the UFC, are not in the UFC HOF. Helio has ZERO business in the UFC HOF.

hell, getting back to the focus of the thread, a case could be made that ken has no business in the UFC. considering that he left when things got tough (for more money of course) and didn't return until the money got better and then proceded to suck horribly imo doesn't guarantee oneself a spot in said HOF.

for example, not everyone who was on the 1927 yankees world series team is in the basball HOF. i mean, look at kens last 10-15 years in the sport:

1-4 in the UFC with his only win over a washed up Kimo.
since 2000 (when he came back from the WWF) he's 5-10 with the 5 victories over fighters with a W/L record of 57-96-3. here's the breakdown.

ivey- 30-46
clifton- 6-10
kimo- 10-7-1
adkins- 7-20-1
otsuka- 4-13

so, how again is guy deserving of a spot in the UFC? just because he was one of the original fighters? like i said, if we're going to apply the same logic to all sports, then why isn't the kicker from the 85 bears superbowl team in the NFL HOF? why isn't the 2nd baseman from the 86 mets in the HOF? they all helped their team get to and win the championship, why aren't they given the same honor as some of their teammates?


I see you are trolling now, my mistake for discussing anything with you.

Again you bring up Vale Tudo. Why? All I have discussed is the UFC in its present state, as a sport in of itself. Take your meds and stay with me.

Helio did not create the UFC? Not personally, but without Helio, would Rorion have trained in BJJ and eventually started the UFC, which was a showcase for BJJ? Oh wait, without Helio, BJJ would not exist. Your logic is beyond flawed, but since you are trolling anyway I will indulge you.

You say Helio has zero business being in the UFC HOF. What purpose does Mask serve in the HOF then? So the man who created the art that created the founder of the UFC has "zero" business in the HOF, but a guy who sold t-shirts and helped grow the business AFTER it was created does?

LOL @ talking about a kicker from a superbowl team in the same way as comparing a founder or creator of anything, or even someone remotely important in the history of the NFL. Jim Thorpe was the founding president of the NFL and is in the HOF. As is his successor.

Again, lol @ "why isnt the second baseman from the 86 mets in the HOF". What kind of moronic retarded question is that? Again considering not all great fighters of MMA are in the UFC HOF, yet a guy who sold t-shirts is. Thats not dig at Mask, great guy and did help build the sport. But why not ask why wasn't the hot dog vendor at the 86 world series in the HOF? Why is the NFL's first president in the HOF?

Keep on trolling
3/20/12 12:24 PM
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disbeliever
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William Colosimo - You need to use the records up to the time ken fought those guys. It can potentially change things. For example, Otsuka was pretty reputable when Ken fought and finished him

And it is ridiculous to even attempt to argue that Ken isnt a hall of famer


This as well
3/20/12 12:26 PM
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Mr.Negative
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 lol by that extension kimura should be in the UFC HOF. Helio's teachers should be in HOF considering it was Japanese jiujitsu that was the base for bjj.
3/20/12 12:28 PM
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disbeliever
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Mr.Negative -  lol by that extension kimura should be in the UFC HOF. Helio's teachers should be in HOF considering it was Japanese jiujitsu that was the base for bjj.


I see you could not keep up, no surprise.

So why is Mask in the HOF but not Rorion? Does that make any sense to you?
3/20/12 12:34 PM
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Mr.Negative
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disbeliever - 
Mr.Negative -  lol by that extension kimura should be in the UFC HOF. Helio's teachers should be in HOF considering it was Japanese jiujitsu that was the base for bjj.


I see you could not keep up, no surprise.

So why is Mask in the HOF but not Rorion? Does that make any sense to you?
lol at me not keeping up. more like i have a job so i can't dedicate my entire morning to explaing to you why you're wrong. repeatedly.

and why is mask in the HOF and Rorion isn't? easy. when Rorion sold his portion of the UFC and the Gracies ran for the hills when they were figured out and refused to change and adapt, Charles was still hustling for the sport. up until the night he was killed mask was working as hard as he was the first day he got into the sport. mask never stopped working towards pushing the sport. Rorion quit the minute his check cleared. thats why.
 
3/20/12 12:41 PM
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disbeliever
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Mr.Negative - 
disbeliever - 
Mr.Negative -  lol by that extension kimura should be in the UFC HOF. Helio's teachers should be in HOF considering it was Japanese jiujitsu that was the base for bjj.


I see you could not keep up, no surprise.

So why is Mask in the HOF but not Rorion? Does that make any sense to you?
lol at me not keeping up. more like i have a job so i can't dedicate my entire morning to explaing to you why you're wrong. repeatedly.

and why is mask in the HOF and Rorion isn't? easy. when Rorion sold his portion of the UFC and the Gracies ran for the hills when they were figured out and refused to change and adapt, Charles was still hustling for the sport. up until the night he was killed mask was working as hard as he was the first day he got into the sport. mask never stopped working towards pushing the sport. Rorion quit the minute his check cleared. thats why.
 


So the HOF is a fan club then, and not a true MMA HOF?

Lol @ I am wrong. Says the man who puts words in peoples mouths, and brings up things not even in the discussion. Repeatedly. Tell us again how a kicked on an NFL team is the same as a creator/president/founder
3/20/12 12:44 PM
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valetudosuperfight
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Negative has a point until he starts to spout off stupid shit about shamrock.

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