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3/21/12 12:56 PM
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notsobigmike
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RockyBullwinkle - 
notsobigmike - 
Silverball - 
notsobigmike - 
Silverball - 
notsobigmike - I don't understand what Shamrock wants.

UFC fronted him money when he needed it.

He got slot coaching on TUF.

He made MILLIONS of dollars off the two Tito rematches, neither of which were really warranted.

He's in the Hall of Fame.

Fighters are making rock-star money, now. What exactly is his big beef?


Which rock stars would those be? Ozzy Osbourne? Metallica? There's no way. How about hip hop stars, like Jay Z? Kanye? Is it possible that the UFC is paying fighters THAT much more behind closed doors? There's no way of knowing for sure, but it seems as likely as M1 negotiating a 50/50 split with Zuffa.



If you have any friends trying to make it as a band, ask them how they would feel about making 8 figures a year.

That's close enough to "rock star" money.


Who's making 8 figures in MMA?


GSP just claimed to be making over $4 million per fight. Fighting twice a year, plus his other deals, he's easily making over $10 million a year.

How's that possible when a) the $4 to $ 5 million he said he makes a fight includes endorsements b) he only fought once last year.


Fighters make money outside fight-related endorsements. Stars like GSP and JJ get paid appearance fees, merchandising money, and other "perks."

GSP isn't the only one making that kind of money and most champs/stars fight at least twice a year.

Any way you shake it, the highest echelon of fighters are making MILLIONS. It wasn't that long ago that being able to even make a full-time living at MMA was a stretch (just ask Ken Shamrock).
3/21/12 2:19 PM
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valetudosuperfight
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Dana does jack shit. He's like the owner of an NFL team who shifts around money, picks off players from other organizations, and then claims all along his team was the best and everyone else was never relevant.

Bullshit.

Tito, Chuck, Royce, and Shamrock did more for the UFC taking a shit everyday then Dana will do moving money around in his whole fucking life.
3/21/12 2:24 PM
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JohnnyChrist
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CindyO - 
valetudosuperfight - I watched and listened to the whole segment. What he said about TRT resonated with me pretty well. I think hormone therapy should be regulated for people who need it. If Dan Marino could have kept playing well till he was 50 I would have been fine with that.

He's also right that we've had 30 years to try and do something about steroids in sports but we have not.

Shamrock seems to make a distinction between testosterone and natural hormones and things like dbol or deca. I think he should probably learn more about hormone balance before he assumes that it is harmless. Age therapy is also an odd field and likely requires scrutiny and regulation.

The rest he said about dana is spot on. DW is not the UFC he just helps promote it. Tito v. shamrock was one of the greatest rivalries ever even if some of the fighting was a little disappointing as the years went on. Facts are facts: before Shamrock came back the UFC was close to shutting its doors. <b>What the fuck does Shamrock owe Dana?</b>

Close to $200,000=) And retarded interviews like this one are a sure-fire way to make sure DW remembers to collect it.

Cindy


You didn't watch the interview at all did you?

3/21/12 2:34 PM
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SOO72
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Shogun of Harlem - Let's lay the cards on the table and be honest.

For those that don't remember, the UFC was dead when Dana White took over. He made the contacts through the Fertittas to purchase the UFC. Through Zuffa the UFC has grown into what they are today.

Does Dana White come off as a dick sometimes? Yeah, but he has some reason for this. He is the president that took the risks to make this thing successful.

As for Ken Shamrock, well read his book, "Inside the Lion's Den" to see how delusional this guy really is. His record is inflated from early UFC and Pancrase fights. Since 2000, he was 5-10 when the competition became much better. He no longer could beat on the Christophe Leningers and Felix Mitchells.

The only appeal Ken had was his looks. He was marketable. As a fighter, no one considers him one of the best ever and it was by Dana's good graces he even put him in the Hall of Fame.


Wow, an 01' join date and still this clueless. Pretty much everything you just wrote is wrong.


3/21/12 3:04 PM
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notsobigmike
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mrwhipple - 
notsobigmike - 
RockyBullwinkle - 
notsobigmike - 
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notsobigmike - 
Silverball - 
notsobigmike - I don't understand what Shamrock wants.

UFC fronted him money when he needed it.

He got slot coaching on TUF.

He made MILLIONS of dollars off the two Tito rematches, neither of which were really warranted.

He's in the Hall of Fame.

Fighters are making rock-star money, now. What exactly is his big beef?


Which rock stars would those be? Ozzy Osbourne? Metallica? There's no way. How about hip hop stars, like Jay Z? Kanye? Is it possible that the UFC is paying fighters THAT much more behind closed doors? There's no way of knowing for sure, but it seems as likely as M1 negotiating a 50/50 split with Zuffa.



If you have any friends trying to make it as a band, ask them how they would feel about making 8 figures a year.

That's close enough to "rock star" money.


Who's making 8 figures in MMA?


GSP just claimed to be making over $4 million per fight. Fighting twice a year, plus his other deals, he's easily making over $10 million a year.

How's that possible when a) the $4 to $ 5 million he said he makes a fight includes endorsements b) he only fought once last year.


Fighters make money outside fight-related endorsements. Stars like GSP and JJ get paid appearance fees, merchandising money, and other "perks."

GSP isn't the only one making that kind of money and most champs/stars fight at least twice a year.

Any way you shake it, the highest echelon of fighters are making MILLIONS. It wasn't that long ago that being able to even make a full-time living at MMA was a stretch (just ask Ken Shamrock).


So you think GSP who made maximum $5 mil on his one fight last year is making another $5 mil on outside the cage endorsements? I'm not here to argue he isn't making money I'm just saying that 8 figure number sounds a bit too large.
And even Ken was making money, $2,5 million for his last two fights supposedly. I don't any fair person isn't going to say Dana and the Fertittas played a significant part in the success in the UFC and deserve to profit from their investment. The question is: relative to their contribution do fighters make a big enough slice of the pie?


No, I don't think GSP made 8 figs last year (seeing as he only fought the one time), but I'm certain that he and other fighters HAVE made that much in a year.

And you bring up the real point - are fighters being rewarded commensurate to their contribution?

From an economic perspective, yes. They are paid more in the UFC than any other organization, meaning that they are making the maximum that the market offers.

The more popular fighters (and thus the more tickets and PPV buys they generate) are paid accordingly, up to and including a direct cut of the PPV buys.

Fighters are obviously a major part of the UFC's success, there are other factors as well. The UFC has a ton of infrastructure that needs to get paid, and money is always being spent on growing the brand.
3/21/12 3:33 PM
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Shogun of Harlem
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SOO72 - 
Shogun of Harlem - Let's lay the cards on the table and be honest.

For those that don't remember, the UFC was dead when Dana White took over. He made the contacts through the Fertittas to purchase the UFC. Through Zuffa the UFC has grown into what they are today.

Does Dana White come off as a dick sometimes? Yeah, but he has some reason for this. He is the president that took the risks to make this thing successful.

As for Ken Shamrock, well read his book, "Inside the Lion's Den" to see how delusional this guy really is. His record is inflated from early UFC and Pancrase fights. Since 2000, he was 5-10 when the competition became much better. He no longer could beat on the Christophe Leningers and Felix Mitchells.

The only appeal Ken had was his looks. He was marketable. As a fighter, no one considers him one of the best ever and it was by Dana's good graces he even put him in the Hall of Fame.


Wow, an 01' join date and still this clueless. Pretty much everything you just wrote is wrong.




Really, where? Ken Shamrock has been overrated his whole career. He believes more of his hype than anyone else. Read his garbage book "Inside the Lion's Den" and how he beat Royce Gracie.

Ken was a pioneer for the sport and was very marketable, but he always came off like he was the greatest thing since sliced bread. He never beat Royce. Royce has done more for MMA than Ken has every done. This sport would not have exploded without Dana White. Ken was in the old UFC and they were going under - add Dana and now the top fighters make really good money.

Ken shouldn't be too mad, he made quite a bit from the dive he took with Rich Franklin.
3/21/12 7:34 PM
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onepunchJD
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Shogun of Harlem - 
SOO72 - 
Shogun of Harlem - Let's lay the cards on the table and be honest.

For those that don't remember, the UFC was dead when Dana White took over. He made the contacts through the Fertittas to purchase the UFC. Through Zuffa the UFC has grown into what they are today.

Does Dana White come off as a dick sometimes? Yeah, but he has some reason for this. He is the president that took the risks to make this thing successful.

As for Ken Shamrock, well read his book, "Inside the Lion's Den" to see how delusional this guy really is. His record is inflated from early UFC and Pancrase fights. Since 2000, he was 5-10 when the competition became much better. He no longer could beat on the Christophe Leningers and Felix Mitchells.

The only appeal Ken had was his looks. He was marketable. As a fighter, no one considers him one of the best ever and it was by Dana's good graces he even put him in the Hall of Fame.


Wow, an 01' join date and still this clueless. Pretty much everything you just wrote is wrong.




Really, where? Ken Shamrock has been overrated his whole career. He believes more of his hype than anyone else. Read his garbage book "Inside the Lion's Den" and how he beat Royce Gracie.

Ken was a pioneer for the sport and was very marketable, but he always came off like he was the greatest thing since sliced bread. He never beat Royce. Royce has done more for MMA than Ken has every done. This sport would not have exploded without Dana White. Ken was in the old UFC and they were going under - add Dana and now the top fighters make really good money.

Ken shouldn't be too mad, he made quite a bit from the dive he took with Rich Franklin.


Actually..

Ken has been severely underrated, based on the way he ended his career. At his best, he was realistically one of the most dangerous men on the planet.

And no, he didn't beat Royce. But in the "overtime" period of the second fight, he was beating Royce up pretty damn good. It wasn't just the knockdown that everybody talks about.. Ken was high in the gaurd, throwing headbutts, punched, and grinding Royce with a cross face. Royce had nothing for Ken at that point, and any modern judges would have gave Ken the decision based on the OT alone. Don't get me wrong.. Ken played it safe in regulation, and it was not an exciting fight. But Royce had submitted every single fighter up to that point. What Ken accompliched in the rematch was significant, if not exciting.

And LOL at Ken's "blown up record". You make it sound like early UFC and Pancrase shouldn't even count.. when they absolutley do. In many ways it took bigger balls for the pioneers to blaze the trail, since they were basically going into it blind. You are using your misguided "opinion", to downplay a history you don't seem to respect.

Royce Gracie, Masa Funaki, Maurice Smith, Oleg Taktarov, Bas Rutten, Kimo, Dan Severn.... yeah, these guys must have all been a bunch of cans, just like Lenninger and Mitchel.. LOL!

From 1993 to 1996, Ken Shamrock had a record of 24 wins, 5 losses, and 2 draws. 22 of these wins were by submission. His 2 draws were Royce and Oleg. Modern judges would have certainly given him the win over Oleg, and probably Royce. (these days fighters win decisions for much closer fights)

.. But go ahead and pretend that Ken Shamrock was not one of the top fighters on the planet for his era. I'm sure Dan Severn and Bas Rutten would disagree.

The bottom line is.. nobody KNEW Ken Shamrock was washed up until the Tito fight. His "losses" to Fujita and Frye did more to show he was still a force than anything. Fujita didn't do shit other than survive an ass kicking. And sure.. go ahead and tell Don Frye the guy that broke both of his legs was no good, and overrated. LOL Don Frye sure didn't say that after the figt.. and he didn't tell me that when I asked him about it.

Ken has a very bad knee. The thing alot of people dont know about.. is his neck. It was an old injury from High School, and he re-injured it in the WWF. SO yeah... it became a bit hard for the man to compete with the top fighters after 10+ years of pro wrestling, toughman fights, MMA fights, and at least 2 serious injuries.

But according to people like you.. he was just never that good. Gimme a break. Your not fooling anybody with the obviously biased revisionst history.

Why don't you just come out and say you don't like the guy? That would make more sense.

And yeah.. I read BOTH of Ken's books, and I like them. IMO, his second book was a little better. He really gave some good insight into the early history of JMMA and how Pancrase got started.

Not everybody likes Ken, and that goes for any fighter. But almost everyone who has trained with his over the years, has been very complimentary of his skills and strength on the mat. Mo Smith said he was the strongest guy he ever rolled with.. He actually KO'd Mark Coleman in training.. guys like Frank and Guy admittedly could never really hang with him.. oh and by the way.. he started the first successful true MMA training camp in the U.S.

But yeah.. Ken sucked, right?
3/21/12 7:36 PM
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onepunchJD
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Sorry for the long winded post.. but the haters always get me going, by trying to paint a biased picture.

Ken had many dissapointments in his MMA career. But the things he did contribute were significant.. and nobody can take that away.
3/21/12 7:53 PM
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Funaki Masakatsu #1
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Ken demolished Bas Rutten twice, submitted FUNAKI twice, beat Severn and Oleg, destroyed top 10 HW Fujita until his heart issue came into play, fought with a bad ACL and had a body ridden with injuries against Don Frye and turned in a fight that was too close to call, and on top of that according to all accounts Ken demolished everyone in training at the Lion's Den, which was filled with world class fighters like Guy Mezger, Jerry Bohlander, Maurice Smith and Frank Shamrock, and also KOed Mark Coleman in training in 1998 at the Lions Den.

To say he was never any good is just ridiculously ignorant. Ken's skill was legit. Phone Post
3/21/12 7:58 PM
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Shogun of Harlem
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Where did I say Ken wasn't the greatest in his time? During the early UFC's he was, but the competition was very lacking.

I don't take Pancrase as face value, as some were works. It was created by former Japanese pro wrestlers. It's not MMA.

Let's not rewrite history and change the rules of past fights. Ken did not beat Royce or Oleg. In his book, he goes on how he was redeemed that he gave Royce a black eye and hinted that "won" the fight.

The bottom line, Dana owes Ken nothing and for him to bitch about it and how he made the UFC is just more of his crap at being a self-centered jerk.
3/21/12 8:02 PM
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UGCTT_LnPninja
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Calhoon - 
JohnnyChrist - 
UGCTT_LnPninja - 
RyannVonDoom - 
JohnnyChrist - Whatever happens, I hope this thread doesn't become too disrespectful to a man who has done more for this sport than most.


It will. Anyone who goes against Zuffa will feel their wrath.

 Funny how you cannot know who J.Christ was talking about, but assume it was Shammy not Dana. ;-)


OOPS hahaha I meant Ken Shamrock, but I assume most people figured that ;)

lol, Ninja does not have common sense. Most people who read your comment understood perfectly.
I knew, as did everyone. The point clearly went over your head....

It COULD have been Dana as that statement applied to both of them.
 
3/21/12 8:05 PM
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UGCTT_LnPninja
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RyannVonDoom - 
Who's making 8 figures in MMA?


Dana White, Lorenzo and Frank.

 GSP, Anderson, Brock (was), Overeem....

Per year of course...
3/21/12 8:08 PM
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UGCTT_LnPninja
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valetudosuperfight - Dana does jack shit. He's like the owner of an NFL team who shifts around money, picks off players from other organizations, and then claims all along his team was the best and everyone else was never relevant.

Bullshit.

Tito, Chuck, Royce, and Shamrock did more for the UFC taking a shit everyday then Dana will do moving money around in his whole fucking life.

 While I am truly not on one side or the other here, you sir take the cake for going full retard on this subject.

Really sad if you believe that post to be true and correct. I hope you were just trolling.
3/21/12 8:09 PM
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Shogun of Harlem
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How about the Ken Shamrock fans rank him among the all time greats? Where does he stand? #1? Top ten? Top twenty?
3/21/12 8:22 PM
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Shogun of Harlem
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^That's what I thought. He doesn't rank that high. Thanks for making my point.
3/21/12 9:08 PM
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onepunchJD
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Shogun of Harlem - ^That's what I thought. He doesn't rank that high. Thanks for making my point.


LOL

You go from saying he has always been overrated.. to basically admitting he was great "in his time". Yes, Pancrase was MMA, There were a few works, but you can't throw out the real fights because of them. That is another long FRAT I just don't have time for right now. Basically, we know which Ken fights were worked, and it was all his losses (except the Hume fight). Pancrase had to get Ken to put a couple guys over, it was the only way he would lose. Ken was far above every Pancrase fighter of that era. He was also above every UFC fighter of that era, with the exception of Royce. Coleman would be the next dominant UFC fighter, and Ken was on his way out by that point. There is debate over who would have won between the 2, and both sides can make a strong argument.

SO you start off by saying Ken didn't have guys like Mitchell and Lenninger to beat anymore.. and then when you are called on that statement, you back peddle and try and gloss over your original post by downgrading the whole era.

LOL

Like I said.. why don't you just say you dislike Ken? It's obvious you are not a fan. If you start every post by admitting that, the crap that follows will be in a better perspective.

And please, don't use the lack of judges in the Oleg fight to gloss over the fact that Ken dominated him. If you want to criticize Ken for that fight, criticize him for not finishing Oleg like he could and should have.

You want to rank Ken?

Everything is relative. Ken was one tf the top fighters of the first era in "MMA". For his accomplishments in that era, I can make an argument for Ken being in the top 10 ever. This is my opinion though, and we can argue opinions.You can't argue the "fact" of how successful Ken was during his first run... no matter what you think of him.

As far as MMA skills?

I can't make an argument for ANY fighter from the early shows being ranked in the top 10. The sport has evolved too fast. BUT, since the pioneers of the sport helped to create the learning curve that modern fighters benifit from.. I believe they still deserve credit for that.
3/21/12 10:01 PM
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Mr Cox
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 Discussing standard business practices of PRIVATE companies on the UG is a useless and fruitless usage of your time
3/21/12 10:04 PM
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JohnnyChrist
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Shogun of Harlem - How about the Ken Shamrock fans rank him among the all time greats? Where does he stand? #1? Top ten? Top twenty?


Sir, what point are you even trying to prove here?

Nobody is arguing that he's the best, and noone is bringing rankings into this, most people that are in support of Ken Shamrock are saying that he was a great fighter for his day (which you even agreed on), but what's much more important wasn't his skill, but what he meant to the sports development.

I doubt anyone would argue your main point, which is that the skill level has vastly increased since his heyday, but how does that take away from what he achieved and helped this sport achieve?
3/21/12 10:07 PM
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12SixElbow
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ssj - Lol @ people taking Zuffa/Dana's side over a FIGHTER and a LEGEND who CARRIED THE UFC (some good posts in this thread about exactly how), must be indicative of all the new fans without a clue.

Fighters are ALWAYS greater than any organisation, anyone who disagrees is not a true fan, and has been sucked into UFC hype (which is pathetic in itself).

 ttt
3/21/12 10:11 PM
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12SixElbow
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 Really really a sad sign of the times when a thread is filled with people backing Dana White and cutting down someone who had a huge hand in actually building the UFC and this sport.


3/21/12 10:15 PM
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Funaki Masakatsu #1
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12SixElbow -  Really really a sad sign of the times when a thread is filled with people backing Dana White and cutting down someone who had a huge hand in actually building the UFC and this sport.


The people backing Dana White are: 1. Zuffa zombies or 2. TUF n00bs. Either way, their opinions should not be taken seriously.

The UFC is not at the level it is at today without Ken Shamrock and nothing Dana White says can ever change that. Phone Post
3/21/12 10:41 PM
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valetudosuperfight
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i wonder if DFW is mad all the time because the constant servicing from the UG has left him numb and impotent.
3/22/12 12:51 AM
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Shogun of Harlem
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JohnnyChrist - 
Shogun of Harlem - How about the Ken Shamrock fans rank him among the all time greats? Where does he stand? #1? Top ten? Top twenty?


Sir, what point are you even trying to prove here?

Nobody is arguing that he's the best, and noone is bringing rankings into this, most people that are in support of Ken Shamrock are saying that he was a great fighter for his day (which you even agreed on), but what's much more important wasn't his skill, but what he meant to the sports development.

I doubt anyone would argue your main point, which is that the skill level has vastly increased since his heyday, but how does that take away from what he achieved and helped this sport achieve?


The point I am making, which ass people like oneJunchJD can't get is that Ken is ego-centric and self centered. He is not half the fighter he things he is. In the overall comparison of MMA he is overrated. He competed in a time where athletic skill was not where it is today. Sure, Ken is mildly athletic, but his competition wasn't.

Case in point, which by I am guessing "Rowdytookmyarm" misses and I can guess by his new screen name he lost aa bet and thought Miesha was going to beat Rousey.

Ronda Rousey is the first true athlete in woman's MMA (maybe Chris Cyborg too) and she beat Miesha very easily. Ken was mildly more athletic than his competition, but no where near the level of today's fighters. Not even close to a Tito Ortiz, who he thought he could beat. Tito Ortiz is a Division I wrestler, who was a JC California Champion.

Ken's value is his marketability. He has a good look, build, and was mildly athletic. He hit the UFC at the right time. His fighting is good, not great. But in his mind, he is the greatest fighter to ever step into the UFC. And to dis Dana White on what he has done for this sport, is just more of his ego.

And what's up with "Sir"?
3/22/12 12:55 AM
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Shogun of Harlem
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Read my above, onePunchJD and:

Like I said.. why don't you just say you dislike Ken? It's obvious you are not a fan. If you start every post by admitting that, the crap that follows will be in a better perspective.

I liked Ken Shamrock until I read his book and how he talked about he beat Royce Gracie and how he couldn't hit Dan Severn. He makes too excuses in that book and that is where I was turned off on him as a fan. Plus his talking to Tito like he was some tough guy. It always makes me laugh seeing Tito push his buttons.

And for the record, Ken isn't even the best fighter with the last name Shamrock.
3/22/12 2:33 AM
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JimmersonzGlove
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 TTT

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