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UnderGround Forums >> Shamrock fires back at White over fighter pay


3/21/12 10:01 PM
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Mr Cox
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 Discussing standard business practices of PRIVATE companies on the UG is a useless and fruitless usage of your time
3/21/12 10:04 PM
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JohnnyChrist
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Shogun of Harlem - How about the Ken Shamrock fans rank him among the all time greats? Where does he stand? #1? Top ten? Top twenty?


Sir, what point are you even trying to prove here?

Nobody is arguing that he's the best, and noone is bringing rankings into this, most people that are in support of Ken Shamrock are saying that he was a great fighter for his day (which you even agreed on), but what's much more important wasn't his skill, but what he meant to the sports development.

I doubt anyone would argue your main point, which is that the skill level has vastly increased since his heyday, but how does that take away from what he achieved and helped this sport achieve?
3/21/12 10:07 PM
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12SixElbow
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ssj - Lol @ people taking Zuffa/Dana's side over a FIGHTER and a LEGEND who CARRIED THE UFC (some good posts in this thread about exactly how), must be indicative of all the new fans without a clue.

Fighters are ALWAYS greater than any organisation, anyone who disagrees is not a true fan, and has been sucked into UFC hype (which is pathetic in itself).

 ttt
3/21/12 10:11 PM
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12SixElbow
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 Really really a sad sign of the times when a thread is filled with people backing Dana White and cutting down someone who had a huge hand in actually building the UFC and this sport.


3/21/12 10:15 PM
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Funaki Masakatsu #1
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12SixElbow -  Really really a sad sign of the times when a thread is filled with people backing Dana White and cutting down someone who had a huge hand in actually building the UFC and this sport.


The people backing Dana White are: 1. Zuffa zombies or 2. TUF n00bs. Either way, their opinions should not be taken seriously.

The UFC is not at the level it is at today without Ken Shamrock and nothing Dana White says can ever change that. Phone Post
3/21/12 10:41 PM
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valetudosuperfight
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i wonder if DFW is mad all the time because the constant servicing from the UG has left him numb and impotent.
3/22/12 12:51 AM
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Shogun of Harlem
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JohnnyChrist - 
Shogun of Harlem - How about the Ken Shamrock fans rank him among the all time greats? Where does he stand? #1? Top ten? Top twenty?


Sir, what point are you even trying to prove here?

Nobody is arguing that he's the best, and noone is bringing rankings into this, most people that are in support of Ken Shamrock are saying that he was a great fighter for his day (which you even agreed on), but what's much more important wasn't his skill, but what he meant to the sports development.

I doubt anyone would argue your main point, which is that the skill level has vastly increased since his heyday, but how does that take away from what he achieved and helped this sport achieve?


The point I am making, which ass people like oneJunchJD can't get is that Ken is ego-centric and self centered. He is not half the fighter he things he is. In the overall comparison of MMA he is overrated. He competed in a time where athletic skill was not where it is today. Sure, Ken is mildly athletic, but his competition wasn't.

Case in point, which by I am guessing "Rowdytookmyarm" misses and I can guess by his new screen name he lost aa bet and thought Miesha was going to beat Rousey.

Ronda Rousey is the first true athlete in woman's MMA (maybe Chris Cyborg too) and she beat Miesha very easily. Ken was mildly more athletic than his competition, but no where near the level of today's fighters. Not even close to a Tito Ortiz, who he thought he could beat. Tito Ortiz is a Division I wrestler, who was a JC California Champion.

Ken's value is his marketability. He has a good look, build, and was mildly athletic. He hit the UFC at the right time. His fighting is good, not great. But in his mind, he is the greatest fighter to ever step into the UFC. And to dis Dana White on what he has done for this sport, is just more of his ego.

And what's up with "Sir"?
3/22/12 12:55 AM
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Shogun of Harlem
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Read my above, onePunchJD and:

Like I said.. why don't you just say you dislike Ken? It's obvious you are not a fan. If you start every post by admitting that, the crap that follows will be in a better perspective.

I liked Ken Shamrock until I read his book and how he talked about he beat Royce Gracie and how he couldn't hit Dan Severn. He makes too excuses in that book and that is where I was turned off on him as a fan. Plus his talking to Tito like he was some tough guy. It always makes me laugh seeing Tito push his buttons.

And for the record, Ken isn't even the best fighter with the last name Shamrock.
3/22/12 2:33 AM
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JimmersonzGlove
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 TTT
3/22/12 3:20 AM
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Roy Batty
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I'm guessing if Ken wasn't happy with the deal the UFC offered him that he would've stayed in pro wrestling. So, he got paid more by Zuffa, who were losing money, than he did by the WWF/E, who were making money hand over fist, and he wants to complain? I don't get it. BTW, the way Vader knocked Ken out in WWF was the start of Ken's slide as a fighter. The story goes: Ken was asked by the office to rough up Vader, who had a reputation for hitting really hard, but Vader being a HUGE former LA Ram knocked Ken the heck out. The KO was on youtube the last I checked.
3/23/12 11:51 PM
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onepunchJD
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Shogun of Harlem - Read my above, onePunchJD and:

Like I said.. why don't you just say you dislike Ken? It's obvious you are not a fan. If you start every post by admitting that, the crap that follows will be in a better perspective.

I liked Ken Shamrock until I read his book and how he talked about he beat Royce Gracie and how he couldn't hit Dan Severn. He makes too excuses in that book and that is where I was turned off on him as a fan. Plus his talking to Tito like he was some tough guy. It always makes me laugh seeing Tito push his buttons.

And for the record, Ken isn't even the best fighter with the last name Shamrock.


The Ken Shamrock that left the UFC in 1996, would absolutly wipe the floor with any version of Tito, ever. The version of Ken that Tito fought, was a mere shadow of his former self.

So what if Tito was div.1 wrestler? Dan Severn has an excellent wrestling resume, and with a greco background, he still couldn't out wrestle Ken.

I have never heard Ken personally say he is the greatest fighter ever. He actually comes off pretty humble these days.

I do agree that in the late 90's, some of his interviews, especially involving Royce, were a bit over the top. So I can see where your coming from. But maybe your just a tad more judgemental that I am. Show me a man on this Earth that has never stuck his foot in his mouth. I'm not here to defend every little personality quirk Ken may have had. Thats hardly the point. Hell.. Frank Shamrock makes even the cockiest version of Ken look soft spoken.

Speaking of Frank.. LOL.. He was smaller than Ken, and a bit more agile. He had some flashy submissions, and his standup looked a little more crisp that Ken's back in the day. (Ken's would improve later) But Frank absolutly NEVER passed Ken up as a fighter. He might have looked a little better, and seemed more "well rounded". Yeah, Frank was also a stud, especially in his UFC days. But a 90's version of Ken Shamrock would eat Frank alive, and Frank himself knows it. Ken today against Frank?... Well, Ken's injuries have made his dominant grappling a thing of the past. But he still hits hard enough, and actually looked decent against Rizzo before he got his leg kicked to hell. I'd still put my money on Ken today. But prime/prime.. its not much of a debate at all.

And whats your beef with Ken telling the truth about "The Dance"? Ken was injured before the fight, took it anyways, and then he decided to follow the last minute "rules", and lost a bullshit decision in a bullshit "fight". The events surrounding the Severn rematch have been confirmed by more sources than just Ken. There were 3 reasons that fight sucked, and wasn't even a fight at all. The last minute rule changes, Dan Severn, and Ken Shamrock. Of the 3, Ken was the least responsible for that dud of a fight. So was he suppose to just keep his mouth shut, and let people think Severn actually has a legitimate "win" over him? LOL.. bullshit! Severn doesn't deserve credit for that win, and Ken is well within his rights to point out that fact.

If you don't think Ken was somthing special as a fighter.. you are blind. He was ahead of his time. There was a time in the mid-late 90's, when Ken Shamrock was very realistically among the top handful of fighters on the planet. Very few men who have ever lived can make a claim like that. The man was an absolute monster. Ken Shamrock at his very best, would still be a dangerous fighter by todays standards.

Calling him "overrated" is your opinion. Many experts, including other fighters, disagree with you.
3/24/12 2:10 AM
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TUF
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Shogun of Harlem - Let's lay the cards on the table and be honest.






LOL @ that coming from a guy who spent years trying to convince the OG that he was a fighter pilot.
3/24/12 3:28 AM
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Masakatsu Funaki
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I like Ken. However, Frank doesn't:

"I think Ken cut himself. It goes back to his giant ego and not being smart enough to understand the rest of the business. I think he got upset because Kimbo was making twice as much as he was and I don’t think his ego could take it. I know for a fact that he tried to hold the network up for more money the day before the show and unfortunately his parting words were, "Well, then you never know what will happen because anything can happen." Then when he showed up with the cut we all thought he juiced himself. You know, he’s not to be trusted ... a real fighter would have superglued it and put makeup on it and been and would have been out there fighting. Which (is something) I have done and many fighters have done many times ... I have no idea what he’s doing. I just hope when he’s finished destroying himself that he has something left to live by."

- Frank Shamrock Phone Post
3/24/12 3:43 AM
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Roy Batty
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RyannVonDoom - 
Roy Batty - I'm guessing if Ken wasn't happy with the deal the UFC offered him that he would've stayed in pro wrestling. So, he got paid more by Zuffa, who were losing money, than he did by the WWF/E, who were making money hand over fist, and he wants to complain? I don't get it. BTW, the way Vader knocked Ken out in WWF was the start of Ken's slide as a fighter. The story goes: Ken was asked by the office to rough up Vader, who had a reputation for hitting really hard, but Vader being a HUGE former LA Ram knocked Ken the heck out. The KO was on youtube the last I checked.



Source??


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwMCIPFUGdQ

Notice how hard Shamrock throws the second elbow before he gets KTFO. Something was.....off that night.
3/24/12 3:48 AM
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Shogun of Harlem
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onepunchJD - 
Shogun of Harlem - Read my above, onePunchJD and:

Like I said.. why don't you just say you dislike Ken? It's obvious you are not a fan. If you start every post by admitting that, the crap that follows will be in a better perspective.

I liked Ken Shamrock until I read his book and how he talked about he beat Royce Gracie and how he couldn't hit Dan Severn. He makes too excuses in that book and that is where I was turned off on him as a fan. Plus his talking to Tito like he was some tough guy. It always makes me laugh seeing Tito push his buttons.

And for the record, Ken isn't even the best fighter with the last name Shamrock.


The Ken Shamrock that left the UFC in 1996, would absolutly wipe the floor with any version of Tito, ever. The version of Ken that Tito fought, was a mere shadow of his former self.

So what if Tito was div.1 wrestler? Dan Severn has an excellent wrestling resume, and with a greco background, he still couldn't out wrestle Ken.

I have never heard Ken personally say he is the greatest fighter ever. He actually comes off pretty humble these days.

I do agree that in the late 90's, some of his interviews, especially involving Royce, were a bit over the top. So I can see where your coming from. But maybe your just a tad more judgemental that I am. Show me a man on this Earth that has never stuck his foot in his mouth. I'm not here to defend every little personality quirk Ken may have had. Thats hardly the point. Hell.. Frank Shamrock makes even the cockiest version of Ken look soft spoken.

Speaking of Frank.. LOL.. He was smaller than Ken, and a bit more agile. He had some flashy submissions, and his standup looked a little more crisp that Ken's back in the day. (Ken's would improve later) But Frank absolutly NEVER passed Ken up as a fighter. He might have looked a little better, and seemed more "well rounded". Yeah, Frank was also a stud, especially in his UFC days. But a 90's version of Ken Shamrock would eat Frank alive, and Frank himself knows it. Ken today against Frank?... Well, Ken's injuries have made his dominant grappling a thing of the past. But he still hits hard enough, and actually looked decent against Rizzo before he got his leg kicked to hell. I'd still put my money on Ken today. But prime/prime.. its not much of a debate at all.

And whats your beef with Ken telling the truth about "The Dance"? Ken was injured before the fight, took it anyways, and then he decided to follow the last minute "rules", and lost a bullshit decision in a bullshit "fight". The events surrounding the Severn rematch have been confirmed by more sources than just Ken. There were 3 reasons that fight sucked, and wasn't even a fight at all. The last minute rule changes, Dan Severn, and Ken Shamrock. Of the 3, Ken was the least responsible for that dud of a fight. So was he suppose to just keep his mouth shut, and let people think Severn actually has a legitimate "win" over him? LOL.. bullshit! Severn doesn't deserve credit for that win, and Ken is well within his rights to point out that fact.

If you don't think Ken was somthing special as a fighter.. you are blind. He was ahead of his time. There was a time in the mid-late 90's, when Ken Shamrock was very realistically among the top handful of fighters on the planet. Very few men who have ever lived can make a claim like that. The man was an absolute monster. Ken Shamrock at his very best, would still be a dangerous fighter by todays standards.

Calling him "overrated" is your opinion. Many experts, including other fighters, disagree with you.




Frank beat Tito, smart guy. Ken never did.
3/24/12 3:49 AM
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Shogun of Harlem
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TUF - 
Shogun of Harlem - Let's lay the cards on the table and be honest.



LOL @ that coming from a guy who spent years trying to convince the OG that he was a fighter pilot.


You must have me confused with someone else. I flew S-3 Vikings. But facts were never your best thing.
3/24/12 3:51 AM
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TUF
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Hahaha same old troll.
3/24/12 4:20 AM
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Roy Batty
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RyannVonDoom - 
Roy Batty - 
RyannVonDoom - 
Roy Batty - I'm guessing if Ken wasn't happy with the deal the UFC offered him that he would've stayed in pro wrestling. So, he got paid more by Zuffa, who were losing money, than he did by the WWF/E, who were making money hand over fist, and he wants to complain? I don't get it. BTW, the way Vader knocked Ken out in WWF was the start of Ken's slide as a fighter. The story goes: Ken was asked by the office to rough up Vader, who had a reputation for hitting really hard, but Vader being a HUGE former LA Ram knocked Ken the heck out. The KO was on youtube the last I checked.



Source??


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwMCIPFUGdQ

Notice how hard Shamrock throws the second elbow before he gets KTFO. Something was.....off that night.


lol @ this being your evidence.. Vader's nose and leg got fucked that match.. and he bicep checked Ken.


lol @ thinking that shot didn't rock his world. That was not how wrestlers fall -- he didn't know that shot was coming. The fact that Vader got hurt too proves my point that Ken was trying to rough him up.....until THAT happened.
3/24/12 4:22 AM
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Roy Batty
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The sound is more the forearm and maybe the fist on the wraparound. Ken got CLOCKED there.
3/24/12 3:51 PM
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onepunchJD
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Shogun of Harlem - 
onepunchJD - 
Shogun of Harlem - Read my above, onePunchJD and:

Like I said.. why don't you just say you dislike Ken? It's obvious you are not a fan. If you start every post by admitting that, the crap that follows will be in a better perspective.

I liked Ken Shamrock until I read his book and how he talked about he beat Royce Gracie and how he couldn't hit Dan Severn. He makes too excuses in that book and that is where I was turned off on him as a fan. Plus his talking to Tito like he was some tough guy. It always makes me laugh seeing Tito push his buttons.

And for the record, Ken isn't even the best fighter with the last name Shamrock.


The Ken Shamrock that left the UFC in 1996, would absolutly wipe the floor with any version of Tito, ever. The version of Ken that Tito fought, was a mere shadow of his former self.

So what if Tito was div.1 wrestler? Dan Severn has an excellent wrestling resume, and with a greco background, he still couldn't out wrestle Ken.

I have never heard Ken personally say he is the greatest fighter ever. He actually comes off pretty humble these days.

I do agree that in the late 90's, some of his interviews, especially involving Royce, were a bit over the top. So I can see where your coming from. But maybe your just a tad more judgemental that I am. Show me a man on this Earth that has never stuck his foot in his mouth. I'm not here to defend every little personality quirk Ken may have had. Thats hardly the point. Hell.. Frank Shamrock makes even the cockiest version of Ken look soft spoken.

Speaking of Frank.. LOL.. He was smaller than Ken, and a bit more agile. He had some flashy submissions, and his standup looked a little more crisp that Ken's back in the day. (Ken's would improve later) But Frank absolutly NEVER passed Ken up as a fighter. He might have looked a little better, and seemed more "well rounded". Yeah, Frank was also a stud, especially in his UFC days. But a 90's version of Ken Shamrock would eat Frank alive, and Frank himself knows it. Ken today against Frank?... Well, Ken's injuries have made his dominant grappling a thing of the past. But he still hits hard enough, and actually looked decent against Rizzo before he got his leg kicked to hell. I'd still put my money on Ken today. But prime/prime.. its not much of a debate at all.

And whats your beef with Ken telling the truth about "The Dance"? Ken was injured before the fight, took it anyways, and then he decided to follow the last minute "rules", and lost a bullshit decision in a bullshit "fight". The events surrounding the Severn rematch have been confirmed by more sources than just Ken. There were 3 reasons that fight sucked, and wasn't even a fight at all. The last minute rule changes, Dan Severn, and Ken Shamrock. Of the 3, Ken was the least responsible for that dud of a fight. So was he suppose to just keep his mouth shut, and let people think Severn actually has a legitimate "win" over him? LOL.. bullshit! Severn doesn't deserve credit for that win, and Ken is well within his rights to point out that fact.

If you don't think Ken was somthing special as a fighter.. you are blind. He was ahead of his time. There was a time in the mid-late 90's, when Ken Shamrock was very realistically among the top handful of fighters on the planet. Very few men who have ever lived can make a claim like that. The man was an absolute monster. Ken Shamrock at his very best, would still be a dangerous fighter by todays standards.

Calling him "overrated" is your opinion. Many experts, including other fighters, disagree with you.




Frank beat Tito, smart guy. Ken never did.


LOL.. No shit?

So Ken beat Bas twice, while Frank went 1 for 3 with Bas. Whats your point?

The Tito that beat Ken was a much better version of Tito. Tito himself credits his loss to Frank as the inspiration that took him to the next level, especially cardio wise. Frank was also at his best when he beat Tito. Later, when asked if he would want to fight Tito again, Frank said Tito had gotten too big. Take that for what it's worth.

On the other hand, the Ken Shamrock that lost to Tito was already pretty much washed up. Even then, it took a lot for Tito to put him away, and the corner had to stop it. Still, Ken was able to get back to his feet, and showed a ton of toughness and heart. A younger, bigger, healthy Ken Shamrock would have logically been a much tougher fight for Tito. The one punch Ken landed, buckled Tito's knees.

Of course we will never know. But your point about Frank beating Tito while Ken didn't, still doesn't hold up. Too much time in between. Frank didn't fight the best Tito.. and Tito didn't fight the best Ken.

Smart guy. :)
3/24/12 5:01 PM
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Shogun of Harlem
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onepunchJD - LOL.. No shit?

So Ken beat Bas twice, while Frank went 1 for 3 with Bas. Whats your point?

The Tito that beat Ken was a much better version of Tito. Tito himself credits his loss to Frank as the inspiration that took him to the next level, especially cardio wise. Frank was also at his best when he beat Tito. Later, when asked if he would want to fight Tito again, Frank said Tito had gotten too big. Take that for what it's worth.

On the other hand, the Ken Shamrock that lost to Tito was already pretty much washed up. Even then, it took a lot for Tito to put him away, and the corner had to stop it. Still, Ken was able to get back to his feet, and showed a ton of toughness and heart. A younger, bigger, healthy Ken Shamrock would have logically been a much tougher fight for Tito. The one punch Ken landed, buckled Tito's knees.

Of course we will never know. But your point about Frank beating Tito while Ken didn't, still doesn't hold up. Too much time in between. Frank didn't fight the best Tito.. and Tito didn't fight the best Ken.

Smart guy. :)


I can play this game too.

Ken beat a Bas Rutten early before Bas became the fighter he was in the UFC.

The simple facts are:

1. Frank has better wins that Ken over their career.

2. Ken thinks he legacy is grater than it actually is.

3. Dana White owes him nothing.
3/24/12 5:20 PM
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tat2tillidie
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rockwell -  Fuck anyone who says anything bad on Ken Shamrock.

If you are a fan of MMA (like him or not) you owe Ken Shamrock.
Ugh I don't owe ken anything ... I pay his bills and Dana's when I bought the ppv with ken on it so me and ken are good ... Phone Post
3/24/12 6:31 PM
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Shogun of Harlem
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RyannVonDoom - 
Shogun of Harlem - 
onepunchJD - LOL.. No shit?

So Ken beat Bas twice, while Frank went 1 for 3 with Bas. Whats your point?

The Tito that beat Ken was a much better version of Tito. Tito himself credits his loss to Frank as the inspiration that took him to the next level, especially cardio wise. Frank was also at his best when he beat Tito. Later, when asked if he would want to fight Tito again, Frank said Tito had gotten too big. Take that for what it's worth.

On the other hand, the Ken Shamrock that lost to Tito was already pretty much washed up. Even then, it took a lot for Tito to put him away, and the corner had to stop it. Still, Ken was able to get back to his feet, and showed a ton of toughness and heart. A younger, bigger, healthy Ken Shamrock would have logically been a much tougher fight for Tito. The one punch Ken landed, buckled Tito's knees.

Of course we will never know. But your point about Frank beating Tito while Ken didn't, still doesn't hold up. Too much time in between. Frank didn't fight the best Tito.. and Tito didn't fight the best Ken.

Smart guy. :)


I can play this game too.

Ken beat a Bas Rutten early before Bas became the fighter he was in the UFC.

The simple facts are:

1. Frank has better wins that Ken over their career.

2. Ken thinks he legacy is grater than it actually is.

3. Dana White owes him nothing.



1. Bas trained extensively with Funaki for his bouts with Ken. Ken beat Bas up on the feet, where Bas was as supposed expert.

That same Bas you herald, would have gotten schooled by Ken.

2. Ken's Legacy is great, just because you're fucktarded does not take away from it.

3. Dana White owes him for Ken lending the name out to get the UFC where it is. TUF and Ken's name against Tito and Franklin are major factors in "zuffa saving the sport."

Stop acting the fool.


No, you quit acting the fool, Dana owes him nothing. It's called business. Get a clue. Did the NFL, NHL, MLB, and NBA back pay the players later on? Think about.
3/24/12 8:24 PM
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CindyO
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Some folks are posting that DW owes Ken Shamrock, but they're not saying exactly WHAT they think he owes the guy. Anyone???


Cindy
3/24/12 9:55 PM
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Shogun of Harlem
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RyannVonDoom - 

They also don't talk down the players that got them where they are today. You have NEVER seen a commissioner of any of those sports act like Dana does, discrediting the athletes.

Nice way to refute the points I made.


Some do, some don't. Dana talking crap is just Dana. Yep, he can be a jerk. Ken getting the UFC to where it is today is debatable. What is not debatable is what type of money the UFC owes him. It's a big fat zero. Ken needs to put his big boy pants on and make money the old fashioned way.

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