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UnderGround Forums >> Shamrock fires back at White over fighter pay


3/22/12 3:20 AM
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Roy Batty
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I'm guessing if Ken wasn't happy with the deal the UFC offered him that he would've stayed in pro wrestling. So, he got paid more by Zuffa, who were losing money, than he did by the WWF/E, who were making money hand over fist, and he wants to complain? I don't get it. BTW, the way Vader knocked Ken out in WWF was the start of Ken's slide as a fighter. The story goes: Ken was asked by the office to rough up Vader, who had a reputation for hitting really hard, but Vader being a HUGE former LA Ram knocked Ken the heck out. The KO was on youtube the last I checked.
3/23/12 11:51 PM
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onepunchJD
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Shogun of Harlem - Read my above, onePunchJD and:

Like I said.. why don't you just say you dislike Ken? It's obvious you are not a fan. If you start every post by admitting that, the crap that follows will be in a better perspective.

I liked Ken Shamrock until I read his book and how he talked about he beat Royce Gracie and how he couldn't hit Dan Severn. He makes too excuses in that book and that is where I was turned off on him as a fan. Plus his talking to Tito like he was some tough guy. It always makes me laugh seeing Tito push his buttons.

And for the record, Ken isn't even the best fighter with the last name Shamrock.


The Ken Shamrock that left the UFC in 1996, would absolutly wipe the floor with any version of Tito, ever. The version of Ken that Tito fought, was a mere shadow of his former self.

So what if Tito was div.1 wrestler? Dan Severn has an excellent wrestling resume, and with a greco background, he still couldn't out wrestle Ken.

I have never heard Ken personally say he is the greatest fighter ever. He actually comes off pretty humble these days.

I do agree that in the late 90's, some of his interviews, especially involving Royce, were a bit over the top. So I can see where your coming from. But maybe your just a tad more judgemental that I am. Show me a man on this Earth that has never stuck his foot in his mouth. I'm not here to defend every little personality quirk Ken may have had. Thats hardly the point. Hell.. Frank Shamrock makes even the cockiest version of Ken look soft spoken.

Speaking of Frank.. LOL.. He was smaller than Ken, and a bit more agile. He had some flashy submissions, and his standup looked a little more crisp that Ken's back in the day. (Ken's would improve later) But Frank absolutly NEVER passed Ken up as a fighter. He might have looked a little better, and seemed more "well rounded". Yeah, Frank was also a stud, especially in his UFC days. But a 90's version of Ken Shamrock would eat Frank alive, and Frank himself knows it. Ken today against Frank?... Well, Ken's injuries have made his dominant grappling a thing of the past. But he still hits hard enough, and actually looked decent against Rizzo before he got his leg kicked to hell. I'd still put my money on Ken today. But prime/prime.. its not much of a debate at all.

And whats your beef with Ken telling the truth about "The Dance"? Ken was injured before the fight, took it anyways, and then he decided to follow the last minute "rules", and lost a bullshit decision in a bullshit "fight". The events surrounding the Severn rematch have been confirmed by more sources than just Ken. There were 3 reasons that fight sucked, and wasn't even a fight at all. The last minute rule changes, Dan Severn, and Ken Shamrock. Of the 3, Ken was the least responsible for that dud of a fight. So was he suppose to just keep his mouth shut, and let people think Severn actually has a legitimate "win" over him? LOL.. bullshit! Severn doesn't deserve credit for that win, and Ken is well within his rights to point out that fact.

If you don't think Ken was somthing special as a fighter.. you are blind. He was ahead of his time. There was a time in the mid-late 90's, when Ken Shamrock was very realistically among the top handful of fighters on the planet. Very few men who have ever lived can make a claim like that. The man was an absolute monster. Ken Shamrock at his very best, would still be a dangerous fighter by todays standards.

Calling him "overrated" is your opinion. Many experts, including other fighters, disagree with you.
3/24/12 2:10 AM
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Shogun of Harlem - Let's lay the cards on the table and be honest.






LOL @ that coming from a guy who spent years trying to convince the OG that he was a fighter pilot.
3/24/12 3:28 AM
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Masakatsu Funaki
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I like Ken. However, Frank doesn't:

"I think Ken cut himself. It goes back to his giant ego and not being smart enough to understand the rest of the business. I think he got upset because Kimbo was making twice as much as he was and I don’t think his ego could take it. I know for a fact that he tried to hold the network up for more money the day before the show and unfortunately his parting words were, "Well, then you never know what will happen because anything can happen." Then when he showed up with the cut we all thought he juiced himself. You know, he’s not to be trusted ... a real fighter would have superglued it and put makeup on it and been and would have been out there fighting. Which (is something) I have done and many fighters have done many times ... I have no idea what he’s doing. I just hope when he’s finished destroying himself that he has something left to live by."

- Frank Shamrock Phone Post
3/24/12 3:43 AM
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Roy Batty
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RyannVonDoom - 
Roy Batty - I'm guessing if Ken wasn't happy with the deal the UFC offered him that he would've stayed in pro wrestling. So, he got paid more by Zuffa, who were losing money, than he did by the WWF/E, who were making money hand over fist, and he wants to complain? I don't get it. BTW, the way Vader knocked Ken out in WWF was the start of Ken's slide as a fighter. The story goes: Ken was asked by the office to rough up Vader, who had a reputation for hitting really hard, but Vader being a HUGE former LA Ram knocked Ken the heck out. The KO was on youtube the last I checked.



Source??


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwMCIPFUGdQ

Notice how hard Shamrock throws the second elbow before he gets KTFO. Something was.....off that night.
3/24/12 3:48 AM
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Shogun of Harlem
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onepunchJD - 
Shogun of Harlem - Read my above, onePunchJD and:

Like I said.. why don't you just say you dislike Ken? It's obvious you are not a fan. If you start every post by admitting that, the crap that follows will be in a better perspective.

I liked Ken Shamrock until I read his book and how he talked about he beat Royce Gracie and how he couldn't hit Dan Severn. He makes too excuses in that book and that is where I was turned off on him as a fan. Plus his talking to Tito like he was some tough guy. It always makes me laugh seeing Tito push his buttons.

And for the record, Ken isn't even the best fighter with the last name Shamrock.


The Ken Shamrock that left the UFC in 1996, would absolutly wipe the floor with any version of Tito, ever. The version of Ken that Tito fought, was a mere shadow of his former self.

So what if Tito was div.1 wrestler? Dan Severn has an excellent wrestling resume, and with a greco background, he still couldn't out wrestle Ken.

I have never heard Ken personally say he is the greatest fighter ever. He actually comes off pretty humble these days.

I do agree that in the late 90's, some of his interviews, especially involving Royce, were a bit over the top. So I can see where your coming from. But maybe your just a tad more judgemental that I am. Show me a man on this Earth that has never stuck his foot in his mouth. I'm not here to defend every little personality quirk Ken may have had. Thats hardly the point. Hell.. Frank Shamrock makes even the cockiest version of Ken look soft spoken.

Speaking of Frank.. LOL.. He was smaller than Ken, and a bit more agile. He had some flashy submissions, and his standup looked a little more crisp that Ken's back in the day. (Ken's would improve later) But Frank absolutly NEVER passed Ken up as a fighter. He might have looked a little better, and seemed more "well rounded". Yeah, Frank was also a stud, especially in his UFC days. But a 90's version of Ken Shamrock would eat Frank alive, and Frank himself knows it. Ken today against Frank?... Well, Ken's injuries have made his dominant grappling a thing of the past. But he still hits hard enough, and actually looked decent against Rizzo before he got his leg kicked to hell. I'd still put my money on Ken today. But prime/prime.. its not much of a debate at all.

And whats your beef with Ken telling the truth about "The Dance"? Ken was injured before the fight, took it anyways, and then he decided to follow the last minute "rules", and lost a bullshit decision in a bullshit "fight". The events surrounding the Severn rematch have been confirmed by more sources than just Ken. There were 3 reasons that fight sucked, and wasn't even a fight at all. The last minute rule changes, Dan Severn, and Ken Shamrock. Of the 3, Ken was the least responsible for that dud of a fight. So was he suppose to just keep his mouth shut, and let people think Severn actually has a legitimate "win" over him? LOL.. bullshit! Severn doesn't deserve credit for that win, and Ken is well within his rights to point out that fact.

If you don't think Ken was somthing special as a fighter.. you are blind. He was ahead of his time. There was a time in the mid-late 90's, when Ken Shamrock was very realistically among the top handful of fighters on the planet. Very few men who have ever lived can make a claim like that. The man was an absolute monster. Ken Shamrock at his very best, would still be a dangerous fighter by todays standards.

Calling him "overrated" is your opinion. Many experts, including other fighters, disagree with you.




Frank beat Tito, smart guy. Ken never did.
3/24/12 3:49 AM
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Shogun of Harlem
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Shogun of Harlem - Let's lay the cards on the table and be honest.



LOL @ that coming from a guy who spent years trying to convince the OG that he was a fighter pilot.


You must have me confused with someone else. I flew S-3 Vikings. But facts were never your best thing.
3/24/12 3:51 AM
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Hahaha same old troll.
3/24/12 4:20 AM
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Roy Batty
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RyannVonDoom - 
Roy Batty - 
RyannVonDoom - 
Roy Batty - I'm guessing if Ken wasn't happy with the deal the UFC offered him that he would've stayed in pro wrestling. So, he got paid more by Zuffa, who were losing money, than he did by the WWF/E, who were making money hand over fist, and he wants to complain? I don't get it. BTW, the way Vader knocked Ken out in WWF was the start of Ken's slide as a fighter. The story goes: Ken was asked by the office to rough up Vader, who had a reputation for hitting really hard, but Vader being a HUGE former LA Ram knocked Ken the heck out. The KO was on youtube the last I checked.



Source??


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwMCIPFUGdQ

Notice how hard Shamrock throws the second elbow before he gets KTFO. Something was.....off that night.


lol @ this being your evidence.. Vader's nose and leg got fucked that match.. and he bicep checked Ken.


lol @ thinking that shot didn't rock his world. That was not how wrestlers fall -- he didn't know that shot was coming. The fact that Vader got hurt too proves my point that Ken was trying to rough him up.....until THAT happened.
3/24/12 4:22 AM
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Roy Batty
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The sound is more the forearm and maybe the fist on the wraparound. Ken got CLOCKED there.
3/24/12 3:51 PM
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onepunchJD
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Shogun of Harlem - 
onepunchJD - 
Shogun of Harlem - Read my above, onePunchJD and:

Like I said.. why don't you just say you dislike Ken? It's obvious you are not a fan. If you start every post by admitting that, the crap that follows will be in a better perspective.

I liked Ken Shamrock until I read his book and how he talked about he beat Royce Gracie and how he couldn't hit Dan Severn. He makes too excuses in that book and that is where I was turned off on him as a fan. Plus his talking to Tito like he was some tough guy. It always makes me laugh seeing Tito push his buttons.

And for the record, Ken isn't even the best fighter with the last name Shamrock.


The Ken Shamrock that left the UFC in 1996, would absolutly wipe the floor with any version of Tito, ever. The version of Ken that Tito fought, was a mere shadow of his former self.

So what if Tito was div.1 wrestler? Dan Severn has an excellent wrestling resume, and with a greco background, he still couldn't out wrestle Ken.

I have never heard Ken personally say he is the greatest fighter ever. He actually comes off pretty humble these days.

I do agree that in the late 90's, some of his interviews, especially involving Royce, were a bit over the top. So I can see where your coming from. But maybe your just a tad more judgemental that I am. Show me a man on this Earth that has never stuck his foot in his mouth. I'm not here to defend every little personality quirk Ken may have had. Thats hardly the point. Hell.. Frank Shamrock makes even the cockiest version of Ken look soft spoken.

Speaking of Frank.. LOL.. He was smaller than Ken, and a bit more agile. He had some flashy submissions, and his standup looked a little more crisp that Ken's back in the day. (Ken's would improve later) But Frank absolutly NEVER passed Ken up as a fighter. He might have looked a little better, and seemed more "well rounded". Yeah, Frank was also a stud, especially in his UFC days. But a 90's version of Ken Shamrock would eat Frank alive, and Frank himself knows it. Ken today against Frank?... Well, Ken's injuries have made his dominant grappling a thing of the past. But he still hits hard enough, and actually looked decent against Rizzo before he got his leg kicked to hell. I'd still put my money on Ken today. But prime/prime.. its not much of a debate at all.

And whats your beef with Ken telling the truth about "The Dance"? Ken was injured before the fight, took it anyways, and then he decided to follow the last minute "rules", and lost a bullshit decision in a bullshit "fight". The events surrounding the Severn rematch have been confirmed by more sources than just Ken. There were 3 reasons that fight sucked, and wasn't even a fight at all. The last minute rule changes, Dan Severn, and Ken Shamrock. Of the 3, Ken was the least responsible for that dud of a fight. So was he suppose to just keep his mouth shut, and let people think Severn actually has a legitimate "win" over him? LOL.. bullshit! Severn doesn't deserve credit for that win, and Ken is well within his rights to point out that fact.

If you don't think Ken was somthing special as a fighter.. you are blind. He was ahead of his time. There was a time in the mid-late 90's, when Ken Shamrock was very realistically among the top handful of fighters on the planet. Very few men who have ever lived can make a claim like that. The man was an absolute monster. Ken Shamrock at his very best, would still be a dangerous fighter by todays standards.

Calling him "overrated" is your opinion. Many experts, including other fighters, disagree with you.




Frank beat Tito, smart guy. Ken never did.


LOL.. No shit?

So Ken beat Bas twice, while Frank went 1 for 3 with Bas. Whats your point?

The Tito that beat Ken was a much better version of Tito. Tito himself credits his loss to Frank as the inspiration that took him to the next level, especially cardio wise. Frank was also at his best when he beat Tito. Later, when asked if he would want to fight Tito again, Frank said Tito had gotten too big. Take that for what it's worth.

On the other hand, the Ken Shamrock that lost to Tito was already pretty much washed up. Even then, it took a lot for Tito to put him away, and the corner had to stop it. Still, Ken was able to get back to his feet, and showed a ton of toughness and heart. A younger, bigger, healthy Ken Shamrock would have logically been a much tougher fight for Tito. The one punch Ken landed, buckled Tito's knees.

Of course we will never know. But your point about Frank beating Tito while Ken didn't, still doesn't hold up. Too much time in between. Frank didn't fight the best Tito.. and Tito didn't fight the best Ken.

Smart guy. :)
3/24/12 5:01 PM
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Shogun of Harlem
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onepunchJD - LOL.. No shit?

So Ken beat Bas twice, while Frank went 1 for 3 with Bas. Whats your point?

The Tito that beat Ken was a much better version of Tito. Tito himself credits his loss to Frank as the inspiration that took him to the next level, especially cardio wise. Frank was also at his best when he beat Tito. Later, when asked if he would want to fight Tito again, Frank said Tito had gotten too big. Take that for what it's worth.

On the other hand, the Ken Shamrock that lost to Tito was already pretty much washed up. Even then, it took a lot for Tito to put him away, and the corner had to stop it. Still, Ken was able to get back to his feet, and showed a ton of toughness and heart. A younger, bigger, healthy Ken Shamrock would have logically been a much tougher fight for Tito. The one punch Ken landed, buckled Tito's knees.

Of course we will never know. But your point about Frank beating Tito while Ken didn't, still doesn't hold up. Too much time in between. Frank didn't fight the best Tito.. and Tito didn't fight the best Ken.

Smart guy. :)


I can play this game too.

Ken beat a Bas Rutten early before Bas became the fighter he was in the UFC.

The simple facts are:

1. Frank has better wins that Ken over their career.

2. Ken thinks he legacy is grater than it actually is.

3. Dana White owes him nothing.
3/24/12 5:20 PM
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tat2tillidie
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rockwell -  Fuck anyone who says anything bad on Ken Shamrock.

If you are a fan of MMA (like him or not) you owe Ken Shamrock.
Ugh I don't owe ken anything ... I pay his bills and Dana's when I bought the ppv with ken on it so me and ken are good ... Phone Post
3/24/12 6:31 PM
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Shogun of Harlem
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RyannVonDoom - 
Shogun of Harlem - 
onepunchJD - LOL.. No shit?

So Ken beat Bas twice, while Frank went 1 for 3 with Bas. Whats your point?

The Tito that beat Ken was a much better version of Tito. Tito himself credits his loss to Frank as the inspiration that took him to the next level, especially cardio wise. Frank was also at his best when he beat Tito. Later, when asked if he would want to fight Tito again, Frank said Tito had gotten too big. Take that for what it's worth.

On the other hand, the Ken Shamrock that lost to Tito was already pretty much washed up. Even then, it took a lot for Tito to put him away, and the corner had to stop it. Still, Ken was able to get back to his feet, and showed a ton of toughness and heart. A younger, bigger, healthy Ken Shamrock would have logically been a much tougher fight for Tito. The one punch Ken landed, buckled Tito's knees.

Of course we will never know. But your point about Frank beating Tito while Ken didn't, still doesn't hold up. Too much time in between. Frank didn't fight the best Tito.. and Tito didn't fight the best Ken.

Smart guy. :)


I can play this game too.

Ken beat a Bas Rutten early before Bas became the fighter he was in the UFC.

The simple facts are:

1. Frank has better wins that Ken over their career.

2. Ken thinks he legacy is grater than it actually is.

3. Dana White owes him nothing.



1. Bas trained extensively with Funaki for his bouts with Ken. Ken beat Bas up on the feet, where Bas was as supposed expert.

That same Bas you herald, would have gotten schooled by Ken.

2. Ken's Legacy is great, just because you're fucktarded does not take away from it.

3. Dana White owes him for Ken lending the name out to get the UFC where it is. TUF and Ken's name against Tito and Franklin are major factors in "zuffa saving the sport."

Stop acting the fool.


No, you quit acting the fool, Dana owes him nothing. It's called business. Get a clue. Did the NFL, NHL, MLB, and NBA back pay the players later on? Think about.
3/24/12 8:24 PM
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CindyO
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Some folks are posting that DW owes Ken Shamrock, but they're not saying exactly WHAT they think he owes the guy. Anyone???


Cindy
3/24/12 9:55 PM
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Shogun of Harlem
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RyannVonDoom - 

They also don't talk down the players that got them where they are today. You have NEVER seen a commissioner of any of those sports act like Dana does, discrediting the athletes.

Nice way to refute the points I made.


Some do, some don't. Dana talking crap is just Dana. Yep, he can be a jerk. Ken getting the UFC to where it is today is debatable. What is not debatable is what type of money the UFC owes him. It's a big fat zero. Ken needs to put his big boy pants on and make money the old fashioned way.
3/24/12 11:16 PM
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onepunchJD
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RyannVonDoom - 
CindyO - Some folks are posting that DW owes Ken Shamrock, but they're not saying exactly WHAT they think he owes the guy. Anyone???


Cindy


Credit. Respect. Honor that is due. That's what I see that Dana owes him. money, that's not my place to make mention of.


BOOM! Exactly.
3/25/12 12:24 AM
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onepunchJD
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Shogun of Harlem - 
onepunchJD - LOL.. No shit?

So Ken beat Bas twice, while Frank went 1 for 3 with Bas. Whats your point?

The Tito that beat Ken was a much better version of Tito. Tito himself credits his loss to Frank as the inspiration that took him to the next level, especially cardio wise. Frank was also at his best when he beat Tito. Later, when asked if he would want to fight Tito again, Frank said Tito had gotten too big. Take that for what it's worth.

On the other hand, the Ken Shamrock that lost to Tito was already pretty much washed up. Even then, it took a lot for Tito to put him away, and the corner had to stop it. Still, Ken was able to get back to his feet, and showed a ton of toughness and heart. A younger, bigger, healthy Ken Shamrock would have logically been a much tougher fight for Tito. The one punch Ken landed, buckled Tito's knees.

Of course we will never know. But your point about Frank beating Tito while Ken didn't, still doesn't hold up. Too much time in between. Frank didn't fight the best Tito.. and Tito didn't fight the best Ken.

Smart guy. :)


I can play this game too.

Ken beat a Bas Rutten early before Bas became the fighter he was in the UFC.

The simple facts are:

1. Frank has better wins that Ken over their career.

2. Ken thinks he legacy is grater than it actually is.

3. Dana White owes him nothing.



The fighter Bas was in the UFC? Well, he wasn't exactly owning TK before the KO, and the Randleman win has always been debated.

I am a big fan of Bas Rutten, and I actually think he is another old-school fighter who is often underrated.

But Ken Shamrock was always just a bad matchup for Bas.

Like RyannVonDoom correctly pointed out.. Ken was too much for Bas, even on the feet.

I'll elaborate on that a little..

Even if we make the thin argument that Bas' ground game improved after he fought Ken.. it never improved to the level of Shamrock's ground game. Also, again like RyannVonDoom pointed out.. Bas started training submissions before he fought Ken, and especially after his first fight with Ken.

Ken was physically much stronger than Bas, and had the seriously dominant ground game that Bas lacked. Bas had one advantage, he was a better striker than Ken. BUT, when watching their fights, we see Ken more than hold his own standing up with Bas.

Nobody is going to argue that Ken was a better striker technically. But Ken's overall physicality was enough for him to hold his own, and pressure Bas so that he never really got off anything solid. Bas couldn't keep Ken off of him, and he couldn't hope to control Ken on the ground.. let alone submit him.

So no matter how good Bas might become on the ground.. he would simply never reach Ken's level of grappling technically, and especially not physically.

Like I said.. Ken was just a very bad matchup for Bas. Ken is the only fighter Bas fought, and never beat. That's actually a pretty big feather in Ken's cap.. and it sucks when biased people try to down-play his wins over Bas.

Bas matched up much better with Frank. Bas was the more dangerous striker, but Frank was no slouch either. Frank was the more advanced grappler.. but Bas was tough and wiley enough to hold his own. Frank was also not the overpowering physical presence that Ken was. Those 2 guys could have fought 20 times.. and IMO it would always be a good fight.

As far as your other "facts", LOL! ...

"""1. Frank has better wins that Ken over their career."""

That is VERY debatable, and a topic for another FRAT, LOL.

"""2. Ken thinks he legacy is grater than it actually is."""

Really? Is that a "fact"? You can read his mind? Well... after Ken beat Kimo the second time he said "I'm not saying I'm the best fighter in the world, but I'll get in that octogon and compete with anybody." Hmm.. sounds confident, and realistic at the same time. Can't fault the guy for TRYING to regain past success, athletes do it all the time. Seem's like YOU think Ken's legacy is not as great as it really is.

"""3. Dana White owes him nothing"""

Dana Whit "owes" him no money, legally. He does owe him respect, and he owes him enough to NOT gloss over Ken's contrabutions to MMA history.

You are stating "opinions", not "facts". You seem to throw that word around a lot.. but your not using it right.
3/25/12 1:00 AM
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CindyO
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RyannVonDoom - 
CindyO - Some folks are posting that DW owes Ken Shamrock, but they're not saying exactly WHAT they think he owes the guy. Anyone???


Cindy


Credit. Respect. Honor that is due. That's what I see that Dana owes him. money, that's not my place to make mention of.

 Awesome! Now we're getting somewhere! And what does KEN owe DW??? Certainly, you can't think this is a one way street. So what's Ken owe DW???


Cindy
3/25/12 1:09 AM
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inf0
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Hair plugs and a manpon?

3/25/12 1:31 AM
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Shogun of Harlem
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onepunchJD - 
Shogun of Harlem - 
onepunchJD - LOL.. No shit?

So Ken beat Bas twice, while Frank went 1 for 3 with Bas. Whats your point?

The Tito that beat Ken was a much better version of Tito. Tito himself credits his loss to Frank as the inspiration that took him to the next level, especially cardio wise. Frank was also at his best when he beat Tito. Later, when asked if he would want to fight Tito again, Frank said Tito had gotten too big. Take that for what it's worth.

On the other hand, the Ken Shamrock that lost to Tito was already pretty much washed up. Even then, it took a lot for Tito to put him away, and the corner had to stop it. Still, Ken was able to get back to his feet, and showed a ton of toughness and heart. A younger, bigger, healthy Ken Shamrock would have logically been a much tougher fight for Tito. The one punch Ken landed, buckled Tito's knees.

Of course we will never know. But your point about Frank beating Tito while Ken didn't, still doesn't hold up. Too much time in between. Frank didn't fight the best Tito.. and Tito didn't fight the best Ken.

Smart guy. :)


I can play this game too.

Ken beat a Bas Rutten early before Bas became the fighter he was in the UFC.

The simple facts are:

1. Frank has better wins that Ken over their career.

2. Ken thinks he legacy is grater than it actually is.

3. Dana White owes him nothing.



The fighter Bas was in the UFC? Well, he wasn't exactly owning TK before the KO, and the Randleman win has always been debated.

I am a big fan of Bas Rutten, and I actually think he is another old-school fighter who is often underrated.

But Ken Shamrock was always just a bad matchup for Bas.

Like RyannVonDoom correctly pointed out.. Ken was too much for Bas, even on the feet.

I'll elaborate on that a little..

Even if we make the thin argument that Bas' ground game improved after he fought Ken.. it never improved to the level of Shamrock's ground game. Also, again like RyannVonDoom pointed out.. Bas started training submissions before he fought Ken, and especially after his first fight with Ken.

Ken was physically much stronger than Bas, and had the seriously dominant ground game that Bas lacked. Bas had one advantage, he was a better striker than Ken. BUT, when watching their fights, we see Ken more than hold his own standing up with Bas.

Nobody is going to argue that Ken was a better striker technically. But Ken's overall physicality was enough for him to hold his own, and pressure Bas so that he never really got off anything solid. Bas couldn't keep Ken off of him, and he couldn't hope to control Ken on the ground.. let alone submit him.

So no matter how good Bas might become on the ground.. he would simply never reach Ken's level of grappling technically, and especially not physically.

Like I said.. Ken was just a very bad matchup for Bas. Ken is the only fighter Bas fought, and never beat. That's actually a pretty big feather in Ken's cap.. and it sucks when biased people try to down-play his wins over Bas.

Bas matched up much better with Frank. Bas was the more dangerous striker, but Frank was no slouch either. Frank was the more advanced grappler.. but Bas was tough and wiley enough to hold his own. Frank was also not the overpowering physical presence that Ken was. Those 2 guys could have fought 20 times.. and IMO it would always be a good fight.

As far as your other "facts", LOL! ...

"""1. Frank has better wins that Ken over their career."""

That is VERY debatable, and a topic for another FRAT, LOL.

"""2. Ken thinks he legacy is grater than it actually is."""

Really? Is that a "fact"? You can read his mind? Well... after Ken beat Kimo the second time he said "I'm not saying I'm the best fighter in the world, but I'll get in that octogon and compete with anybody." Hmm.. sounds confident, and realistic at the same time. Can't fault the guy for TRYING to regain past success, athletes do it all the time. Seem's like YOU think Ken's legacy is not as great as it really is.

"""3. Dana White owes him nothing"""

Dana Whit "owes" him no money, legally. He does owe him respect, and he owes him enough to NOT gloss over Ken's contrabutions to MMA history.

You are stating "opinions", not "facts". You seem to throw that word around a lot.. but your not using it right.


Jesus Christ! This is about the third post you made that is a fucking novel. Comm Brevity? Have you heard it? BLUF? Bottom Line Up Front. Condense what you wrote into 3-5 lines.
3/25/12 3:14 AM
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onepunchJD
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LOL

Well.. what do you expect?

You make vague points that are really your opinions, and call them facts.

I understand that you probably wont change your mind, or even admit where I might have a good point. Thats fine.. I'm still going to make my argument.

But there others who read these threads, and many of them are newer fans. Your "opinions" are NOT facts.. and it's important that people know why.

I have seen many debates here that make my posts on this thread seem short. Most people who participate, don't seem to mind a detailed argument.

BTW - It took me all of 3 minutes to read my last post, slowly.
3/25/12 4:33 AM
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Shogun of Harlem
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onepunchJD - LOL

Well.. what do you expect?

You make vague points that are really your opinions, and call them facts.

I understand that you probably wont change your mind, or even admit where I might have a good point. Thats fine.. I'm still going to make my argument.

But there others who read these threads, and many of them are newer fans. Your "opinions" are NOT facts.. and it's important that people know why.

I have seen many debates here that make my posts on this thread seem short. Most people who participate, don't seem to mind a detailed argument.

BTW - It took me all of 3 minutes to read my last post, slowly.


No, what I said are facts.

LOL @ using Kimo as the bench mark for making your point. That says it right there.
3/25/12 4:08 PM
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onepunchJD
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Shogun of Harlem - 
onepunchJD - LOL

Well.. what do you expect?

You make vague points that are really your opinions, and call them facts.

I understand that you probably wont change your mind, or even admit where I might have a good point. Thats fine.. I'm still going to make my argument.

But there others who read these threads, and many of them are newer fans. Your "opinions" are NOT facts.. and it's important that people know why.

I have seen many debates here that make my posts on this thread seem short. Most people who participate, don't seem to mind a detailed argument.

BTW - It took me all of 3 minutes to read my last post, slowly.


No, what I said are facts.

LOL @ using Kimo as the bench mark for making your point. That says it right there.


LOL.. look up the word "fact".

Those were "opinions".. and that is a fact.
3/25/12 6:43 PM
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Shogun of Harlem
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RyannVonDoom - 
onepunchJD - 
Shogun of Harlem - 
onepunchJD - LOL

Well.. what do you expect?

You make vague points that are really your opinions, and call them facts.

I understand that you probably wont change your mind, or even admit where I might have a good point. Thats fine.. I'm still going to make my argument.

But there others who read these threads, and many of them are newer fans. Your "opinions" are NOT facts.. and it's important that people know why.

I have seen many debates here that make my posts on this thread seem short. Most people who participate, don't seem to mind a detailed argument.

BTW - It took me all of 3 minutes to read my last post, slowly.


No, what I said are facts.

LOL @ using Kimo as the bench mark for making your point. That says it right there.


LOL.. look up the word "fact".

Those were "opinions".. and that is a fact.


Funny, I was just about to post this. He's supposedly a Navy Officer. Explains his delusions of grandeur about his opinions.


Are you two really that stupid?

Well, you think Ken Shamrock is GOAT, so that answers the question. And that's a FACT!

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