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UnderGround Forums >> Shamrock fires back at White over fighter pay


3/24/12 11:16 PM
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onepunchJD
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RyannVonDoom - 
CindyO - Some folks are posting that DW owes Ken Shamrock, but they're not saying exactly WHAT they think he owes the guy. Anyone???


Cindy


Credit. Respect. Honor that is due. That's what I see that Dana owes him. money, that's not my place to make mention of.


BOOM! Exactly.
3/25/12 12:24 AM
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onepunchJD
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Shogun of Harlem - 
onepunchJD - LOL.. No shit?

So Ken beat Bas twice, while Frank went 1 for 3 with Bas. Whats your point?

The Tito that beat Ken was a much better version of Tito. Tito himself credits his loss to Frank as the inspiration that took him to the next level, especially cardio wise. Frank was also at his best when he beat Tito. Later, when asked if he would want to fight Tito again, Frank said Tito had gotten too big. Take that for what it's worth.

On the other hand, the Ken Shamrock that lost to Tito was already pretty much washed up. Even then, it took a lot for Tito to put him away, and the corner had to stop it. Still, Ken was able to get back to his feet, and showed a ton of toughness and heart. A younger, bigger, healthy Ken Shamrock would have logically been a much tougher fight for Tito. The one punch Ken landed, buckled Tito's knees.

Of course we will never know. But your point about Frank beating Tito while Ken didn't, still doesn't hold up. Too much time in between. Frank didn't fight the best Tito.. and Tito didn't fight the best Ken.

Smart guy. :)


I can play this game too.

Ken beat a Bas Rutten early before Bas became the fighter he was in the UFC.

The simple facts are:

1. Frank has better wins that Ken over their career.

2. Ken thinks he legacy is grater than it actually is.

3. Dana White owes him nothing.



The fighter Bas was in the UFC? Well, he wasn't exactly owning TK before the KO, and the Randleman win has always been debated.

I am a big fan of Bas Rutten, and I actually think he is another old-school fighter who is often underrated.

But Ken Shamrock was always just a bad matchup for Bas.

Like RyannVonDoom correctly pointed out.. Ken was too much for Bas, even on the feet.

I'll elaborate on that a little..

Even if we make the thin argument that Bas' ground game improved after he fought Ken.. it never improved to the level of Shamrock's ground game. Also, again like RyannVonDoom pointed out.. Bas started training submissions before he fought Ken, and especially after his first fight with Ken.

Ken was physically much stronger than Bas, and had the seriously dominant ground game that Bas lacked. Bas had one advantage, he was a better striker than Ken. BUT, when watching their fights, we see Ken more than hold his own standing up with Bas.

Nobody is going to argue that Ken was a better striker technically. But Ken's overall physicality was enough for him to hold his own, and pressure Bas so that he never really got off anything solid. Bas couldn't keep Ken off of him, and he couldn't hope to control Ken on the ground.. let alone submit him.

So no matter how good Bas might become on the ground.. he would simply never reach Ken's level of grappling technically, and especially not physically.

Like I said.. Ken was just a very bad matchup for Bas. Ken is the only fighter Bas fought, and never beat. That's actually a pretty big feather in Ken's cap.. and it sucks when biased people try to down-play his wins over Bas.

Bas matched up much better with Frank. Bas was the more dangerous striker, but Frank was no slouch either. Frank was the more advanced grappler.. but Bas was tough and wiley enough to hold his own. Frank was also not the overpowering physical presence that Ken was. Those 2 guys could have fought 20 times.. and IMO it would always be a good fight.

As far as your other "facts", LOL! ...

"""1. Frank has better wins that Ken over their career."""

That is VERY debatable, and a topic for another FRAT, LOL.

"""2. Ken thinks he legacy is grater than it actually is."""

Really? Is that a "fact"? You can read his mind? Well... after Ken beat Kimo the second time he said "I'm not saying I'm the best fighter in the world, but I'll get in that octogon and compete with anybody." Hmm.. sounds confident, and realistic at the same time. Can't fault the guy for TRYING to regain past success, athletes do it all the time. Seem's like YOU think Ken's legacy is not as great as it really is.

"""3. Dana White owes him nothing"""

Dana Whit "owes" him no money, legally. He does owe him respect, and he owes him enough to NOT gloss over Ken's contrabutions to MMA history.

You are stating "opinions", not "facts". You seem to throw that word around a lot.. but your not using it right.
3/25/12 1:00 AM
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CindyO
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RyannVonDoom - 
CindyO - Some folks are posting that DW owes Ken Shamrock, but they're not saying exactly WHAT they think he owes the guy. Anyone???


Cindy


Credit. Respect. Honor that is due. That's what I see that Dana owes him. money, that's not my place to make mention of.

 Awesome! Now we're getting somewhere! And what does KEN owe DW??? Certainly, you can't think this is a one way street. So what's Ken owe DW???


Cindy
3/25/12 1:09 AM
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inf0
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Hair plugs and a manpon?

3/25/12 1:31 AM
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Shogun of Harlem
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onepunchJD - 
Shogun of Harlem - 
onepunchJD - LOL.. No shit?

So Ken beat Bas twice, while Frank went 1 for 3 with Bas. Whats your point?

The Tito that beat Ken was a much better version of Tito. Tito himself credits his loss to Frank as the inspiration that took him to the next level, especially cardio wise. Frank was also at his best when he beat Tito. Later, when asked if he would want to fight Tito again, Frank said Tito had gotten too big. Take that for what it's worth.

On the other hand, the Ken Shamrock that lost to Tito was already pretty much washed up. Even then, it took a lot for Tito to put him away, and the corner had to stop it. Still, Ken was able to get back to his feet, and showed a ton of toughness and heart. A younger, bigger, healthy Ken Shamrock would have logically been a much tougher fight for Tito. The one punch Ken landed, buckled Tito's knees.

Of course we will never know. But your point about Frank beating Tito while Ken didn't, still doesn't hold up. Too much time in between. Frank didn't fight the best Tito.. and Tito didn't fight the best Ken.

Smart guy. :)


I can play this game too.

Ken beat a Bas Rutten early before Bas became the fighter he was in the UFC.

The simple facts are:

1. Frank has better wins that Ken over their career.

2. Ken thinks he legacy is grater than it actually is.

3. Dana White owes him nothing.



The fighter Bas was in the UFC? Well, he wasn't exactly owning TK before the KO, and the Randleman win has always been debated.

I am a big fan of Bas Rutten, and I actually think he is another old-school fighter who is often underrated.

But Ken Shamrock was always just a bad matchup for Bas.

Like RyannVonDoom correctly pointed out.. Ken was too much for Bas, even on the feet.

I'll elaborate on that a little..

Even if we make the thin argument that Bas' ground game improved after he fought Ken.. it never improved to the level of Shamrock's ground game. Also, again like RyannVonDoom pointed out.. Bas started training submissions before he fought Ken, and especially after his first fight with Ken.

Ken was physically much stronger than Bas, and had the seriously dominant ground game that Bas lacked. Bas had one advantage, he was a better striker than Ken. BUT, when watching their fights, we see Ken more than hold his own standing up with Bas.

Nobody is going to argue that Ken was a better striker technically. But Ken's overall physicality was enough for him to hold his own, and pressure Bas so that he never really got off anything solid. Bas couldn't keep Ken off of him, and he couldn't hope to control Ken on the ground.. let alone submit him.

So no matter how good Bas might become on the ground.. he would simply never reach Ken's level of grappling technically, and especially not physically.

Like I said.. Ken was just a very bad matchup for Bas. Ken is the only fighter Bas fought, and never beat. That's actually a pretty big feather in Ken's cap.. and it sucks when biased people try to down-play his wins over Bas.

Bas matched up much better with Frank. Bas was the more dangerous striker, but Frank was no slouch either. Frank was the more advanced grappler.. but Bas was tough and wiley enough to hold his own. Frank was also not the overpowering physical presence that Ken was. Those 2 guys could have fought 20 times.. and IMO it would always be a good fight.

As far as your other "facts", LOL! ...

"""1. Frank has better wins that Ken over their career."""

That is VERY debatable, and a topic for another FRAT, LOL.

"""2. Ken thinks he legacy is grater than it actually is."""

Really? Is that a "fact"? You can read his mind? Well... after Ken beat Kimo the second time he said "I'm not saying I'm the best fighter in the world, but I'll get in that octogon and compete with anybody." Hmm.. sounds confident, and realistic at the same time. Can't fault the guy for TRYING to regain past success, athletes do it all the time. Seem's like YOU think Ken's legacy is not as great as it really is.

"""3. Dana White owes him nothing"""

Dana Whit "owes" him no money, legally. He does owe him respect, and he owes him enough to NOT gloss over Ken's contrabutions to MMA history.

You are stating "opinions", not "facts". You seem to throw that word around a lot.. but your not using it right.


Jesus Christ! This is about the third post you made that is a fucking novel. Comm Brevity? Have you heard it? BLUF? Bottom Line Up Front. Condense what you wrote into 3-5 lines.
3/25/12 3:14 AM
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onepunchJD
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LOL

Well.. what do you expect?

You make vague points that are really your opinions, and call them facts.

I understand that you probably wont change your mind, or even admit where I might have a good point. Thats fine.. I'm still going to make my argument.

But there others who read these threads, and many of them are newer fans. Your "opinions" are NOT facts.. and it's important that people know why.

I have seen many debates here that make my posts on this thread seem short. Most people who participate, don't seem to mind a detailed argument.

BTW - It took me all of 3 minutes to read my last post, slowly.
3/25/12 4:33 AM
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Shogun of Harlem
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onepunchJD - LOL

Well.. what do you expect?

You make vague points that are really your opinions, and call them facts.

I understand that you probably wont change your mind, or even admit where I might have a good point. Thats fine.. I'm still going to make my argument.

But there others who read these threads, and many of them are newer fans. Your "opinions" are NOT facts.. and it's important that people know why.

I have seen many debates here that make my posts on this thread seem short. Most people who participate, don't seem to mind a detailed argument.

BTW - It took me all of 3 minutes to read my last post, slowly.


No, what I said are facts.

LOL @ using Kimo as the bench mark for making your point. That says it right there.
3/25/12 4:08 PM
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onepunchJD
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Shogun of Harlem - 
onepunchJD - LOL

Well.. what do you expect?

You make vague points that are really your opinions, and call them facts.

I understand that you probably wont change your mind, or even admit where I might have a good point. Thats fine.. I'm still going to make my argument.

But there others who read these threads, and many of them are newer fans. Your "opinions" are NOT facts.. and it's important that people know why.

I have seen many debates here that make my posts on this thread seem short. Most people who participate, don't seem to mind a detailed argument.

BTW - It took me all of 3 minutes to read my last post, slowly.


No, what I said are facts.

LOL @ using Kimo as the bench mark for making your point. That says it right there.


LOL.. look up the word "fact".

Those were "opinions".. and that is a fact.
3/25/12 6:43 PM
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Shogun of Harlem
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RyannVonDoom - 
onepunchJD - 
Shogun of Harlem - 
onepunchJD - LOL

Well.. what do you expect?

You make vague points that are really your opinions, and call them facts.

I understand that you probably wont change your mind, or even admit where I might have a good point. Thats fine.. I'm still going to make my argument.

But there others who read these threads, and many of them are newer fans. Your "opinions" are NOT facts.. and it's important that people know why.

I have seen many debates here that make my posts on this thread seem short. Most people who participate, don't seem to mind a detailed argument.

BTW - It took me all of 3 minutes to read my last post, slowly.


No, what I said are facts.

LOL @ using Kimo as the bench mark for making your point. That says it right there.


LOL.. look up the word "fact".

Those were "opinions".. and that is a fact.


Funny, I was just about to post this. He's supposedly a Navy Officer. Explains his delusions of grandeur about his opinions.


Are you two really that stupid?

Well, you think Ken Shamrock is GOAT, so that answers the question. And that's a FACT!
3/25/12 9:45 PM
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onepunchJD
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Shogun of Harlem - 
RyannVonDoom - 
onepunchJD - 
Shogun of Harlem - 
onepunchJD - LOL

Well.. what do you expect?

You make vague points that are really your opinions, and call them facts.

I understand that you probably wont change your mind, or even admit where I might have a good point. Thats fine.. I'm still going to make my argument.

But there others who read these threads, and many of them are newer fans. Your "opinions" are NOT facts.. and it's important that people know why.

I have seen many debates here that make my posts on this thread seem short. Most people who participate, don't seem to mind a detailed argument.

BTW - It took me all of 3 minutes to read my last post, slowly.


No, what I said are facts.

LOL @ using Kimo as the bench mark for making your point. That says it right there.


LOL.. look up the word "fact".

Those were "opinions".. and that is a fact.


Funny, I was just about to post this. He's supposedly a Navy Officer. Explains his delusions of grandeur about his opinions.


Are you two really that stupid?

Well, you think Ken Shamrock is GOAT, so that answers the question. And that's a FACT!


I never said Ken is the GOAT.

Now your just being an asshole, because you know damn well you are not stating "facts".

A "fact" can be proven.
3/25/12 9:57 PM
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Shogun of Harlem
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onepunchJD - 
Shogun of Harlem - 
RyannVonDoom - 
onepunchJD - 
Shogun of Harlem - 
onepunchJD - LOL

Well.. what do you expect?

You make vague points that are really your opinions, and call them facts.

I understand that you probably wont change your mind, or even admit where I might have a good point. Thats fine.. I'm still going to make my argument.

But there others who read these threads, and many of them are newer fans. Your "opinions" are NOT facts.. and it's important that people know why.

I have seen many debates here that make my posts on this thread seem short. Most people who participate, don't seem to mind a detailed argument.

BTW - It took me all of 3 minutes to read my last post, slowly.


No, what I said are facts.

LOL @ using Kimo as the bench mark for making your point. That says it right there.


LOL.. look up the word "fact".

Those were "opinions".. and that is a fact.


Funny, I was just about to post this. He's supposedly a Navy Officer. Explains his delusions of grandeur about his opinions.


Are you two really that stupid?

Well, you think Ken Shamrock is GOAT, so that answers the question. And that's a FACT!


I never said Ken is the GOAT.

Now your just being an asshole, because you know damn well you are not stating "facts".

A "fact" can be proven.


RyanVan said it. I am talking to two people. And LOL, if you think I don't know what a fact is.

I am trying to turn over a new leaf, so I apolgize if you think I was being an asshole.
3/25/12 11:46 PM
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onepunchJD
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^^^

Dude, I don't have hard feelings over a discussion forum on the internet.

I don't know what your "new leaf" line is about...

.. But I really don't mind disagreeing.

If you do know what a fact is.. you have to admit your opinions are not facts. Period.

Other than that.. I just didn't think your arguments held much weight, so I pointed it out.

There might be other topics we agree on. I have a a habit of defending the pioneers of MMA, who I think are usually underrated by the masses. I stand behind my arguments.

Other than that, no big deal.

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