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UnderGround Forums >> Royce Gracie's 1994 Blackbelt?


3/23/12 11:19 PM
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Kevin bacon
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I think it's been too long since many of you (at least those of you who actually have a purple belt or higher), saw those fights. His performance was probably around a high blue compared to todays competing BB's...

Just look at them again and you'll probably get quite disillusioned. There are all these painfully obvious position mistakes and submission opportunities that he misses like he didn't even know about them. Mistakes that would be unacceptable by todays standards (yes, even in true vale tudo)... And this is against opponents that have NEVER in their life grappled before. Kimo almost won in a ground fight against him for christ sake. If he didn't have a ponytail Royce probably wouldn't be able to sub him... a white belt on roids.

Flame me all you want, but you should re-watch those fights that you saw before you got your blue or purple belt
3/23/12 11:23 PM
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i pee blood
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for that age, black. for today, mid to high purple.
3/23/12 11:28 PM
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AddictedMMAjunkie
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You need to slap yourself if you voted blue.
3/23/12 11:28 PM
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VARIOUS
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 My personal favorite
3/23/12 11:32 PM
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VARIOUS
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 ...
3/23/12 11:34 PM
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VARIOUS
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3/23/12 11:50 PM
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DaemonDragon
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Kirik - He was an excellent black belt by any standards. Don't think time changes everything. Jack Johnson unquestionably would be heavyweight champion today.

I seriously thought this was sarcasm at first glance. Jack Johnson...?

If you had said Joe Louis or something then it would be harder to disagree, but Jack Johnson would be too small. He might perhaps be top 10 at a lower weight class, but he surely wouldn't be HW champ. Joe Louis is a different story - the athletes of the 40's were pretty high level and Louis wasn't that small, and had exceptional skill. Not sure if he'd be able to be HW champ today but it's much more a plausible thing to believe than Jack Johnson.
AlexanderTheGOAT - 
VARIOUS -
da Vinci 81 -  Stupid thread.

Would strongly disagree. Guess the TMA brainwash is strong in this thread.

You'll always get flamed for a thread like this because people can't put their emotion aside and think rationally with things like this.

It's the people who are thinking with emotions over logic who voted anything other than black belt. The people who overvalue anything modern without actually thinking things through rationally.

As others have stated repeatedly, the average black belt today would not be able to have beaten the guys Royce did. Look who he beat for fuck's sake.

Also people make too much out of Matt Hughes owning him, that's one thing that's really colored perceptions in an inaccurate way - Royce was fucking 39 and was fighting an all time GOAT in his prime, and he barely trained and was just showing up for a paycheck.

Even today's Matt Hughes isn't the age Royce was at the time, and look how washed up Hughes - who does still train intensely - is. You cannot compare young 20-something motivated Royce to old man paycheck Royce. Just like you can't compare the wrestling of today's Matt Hughes to young D1 AA Matt Hughes.
3/24/12 12:10 AM
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12SixElbow
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 What people seem to not understand was that Royce was competing in an actual fucking fight.
Against guys much larger than him.

Look at Marcelo Garcia in his MMA debut.......
Look at Roger's last night out...
Look at Andre Galvao,
etc....

3/24/12 12:55 AM
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NoGiGoGoGaGa
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High purple. (sorry) I remember when hughes out-grappleled him like he was a 'Dan-zan Ryu Jujitsu' black-belt.
3/24/12 1:06 AM
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abenny
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i think the royce i just watched vs ichihara would probably do okay vs your average run of the mill purple belt.. but would probably get smoked by most mundial level blue belts his size and weight.
3/24/12 1:07 AM
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ShanTheMan
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I have been a boxing fan much longer than an MMA fan......and I love ya Kirik but you are nuts if you think JJ would be more than a journeyman nowadays. I know the HW division isn't very deep right now but don't let that cloud your judgment.
3/24/12 1:09 AM
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12SixElbow
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NoGiGoGoGaGa - High purple. (sorry) I remember when hughes out-grappleled him like he was a 'Dan-zan Ryu Jujitsu' black-belt.

 And?

1. Royce was coming out of retirement
2. Matt Hughes has spent a LIFETIME grappling
3. Matt Hughes is 9x UFC Champion
4. Matt had been training in BJJ / Submission grappling for a decade at that point.
5. Hughes was an All American Wrestler
the list goes on.

How Hughes beating proves Royce isn't a black belt is beyond me,
You should re think your logic.
Hughes also beat Renzo and Almeida, are they not BB's either?

Jesus christ you people are idiots
3/24/12 1:16 AM
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MMAjustice
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Obviously blackbelt.

You're an idiot if you choose otherwise.
3/24/12 9:28 AM
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HuntingtonPUNK
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went down, way down
3/24/12 2:32 PM
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vegard
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anyone who voted less than black belt is an idiot

don't think i've ever voted anyone down but I did for this thread

morans
3/24/12 2:40 PM
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Paul Maul
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so you guys saying "he just smashed bums!"
Which one of you tough guys here could take out: REmco Perdo?

Out grapple and choke out Shamrock?

YOu think you'd be calm for 15 mins with Dan Severn on top of you and then triangle him???

You think Marc Laimon would've just walked into the cage and tapped out guys like Pat Smith and Gerard Gordaue???

LOL!
3/24/12 2:59 PM
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Elias Cepeda
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 I know where OP was probably coming from with this question - Royce never had that great BJJ skills, comparatively, to the others in his family and top black belts out there, but that is in comparison with other blackbelts. 

Anyone, who can submit 3-4 men in a night with so few rules, when just about all of them are larger than you, and all of them are professionally trained fighters, is a motherfucking black belt.

Not to mention that skills alone do not a true black belt make. Having the courage and heart to fight the way he did (and all the others that competed in those days) puts him higher than any other slicker but non-fighting black belts of those days, or today, are.
3/24/12 3:12 PM
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graciesrule
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Black Belts were earned slower in the past. In addition to the ground work you had to know all the self defense, you knew more period. Today you see much better conditioning & nutrition which makes a better overall athlete.
3/24/12 3:20 PM
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Balance
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gusto - i wish some of the asshats that voted less than black belt could fight the 1994 ken shamrock in an nhb fight


This.
3/24/12 3:56 PM
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vegard
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true blue belt v. roided, methed up kimo back then equals first death in nhb
3/24/12 5:26 PM
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Sugarfoot
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"the jiu-jitsu I developed is for self defense, so you do not get beat up on the street. It's not for tournaments."

Helio Gracie Phone Post
3/24/12 8:00 PM
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jcblass
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Edited: 03/24/12 8:06 PM
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You grow up with Rickson Gracie for 20 plus years and are only a blue belt....yea right. He tapped out a knowledgeable Ken Shamrock in a few minutes. Doubtful too many blue belts at the local BJJ chain could do that. I guess we are back to the 1970's and 80's where anyone with a "black belt" is lethal. Those who argue that Royce's attacks were simplistic are failing to realize that those techniques were all that were necessary in order to win back then. It does not mean that Royce therefore does not know any of the more advanced techniques.
3/25/12 10:05 AM
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VARIOUS
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 ttt
3/25/12 10:25 AM
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bemsqua
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CLINTK9 - FUCKIN BLACK BELT ALL DAY!

I've rolled with Royce, Rickson, Ruas, Rizzo and more. Royce is a Balck Belt of todays standards.

His technique and Mental toughness was all he had, and he won the UFC's with it. He was not a super athlete or strongman by any means.




Off topic...but curious. How did Ruas' ground game compare to the Gracie's that you listed? I know he wasn't a BJJ guy, but do you think he was "black belt" level? I've always read he was stronger than an ox and not very fun to roll with.
3/25/12 2:10 PM
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NoGiGoGoGaGa
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No disrespect to Royce. He put BJJ on the map, he's a legend. I'm simply comparing his game in 94 with todays blackbelts. I've trained with all the top guys at Ceasars' over the years and regularly with David Terrell for well over 10 years. In my opinion, the black belts, brown belts and even some purple belts i've trained with would murder Royce from 1994. If you train with a top school and you're being honest, you would probably say the same thing. sorry

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