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UnderGround Forums >> The Rise & Problems of Zuffa UFC by EatonBeever


10/2/13 12:56 AM
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kingkoopa
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jerdney -
kingkoopa -
gokudamus stole my name iv - "Then when that company decides that w/l is more important than the actual fight and the fighters the fighters have no choice but to point fight safely in order to get a good w/l ratio. "

But claims like this are contradicted over and over again when guys like Okami, a perennial top contender who is 3-1 in his last four, gets cut while a guy like Matt Brown who at one point had 4 losses (by finish) in 5 fights is kept -- or even a guy like Mir who gets knocked out in every other fight.

You've got people denouncing the UFC for not treating it like a sport and cutting guys who, despite winning and/or being top guys, are cut for being boring; and then you've got other people denouncing the UFC for caring only about w/l and forcing guys to play it safe to avoid being cut for losing. And sometimes the people yelling those two contradictory things are even the same people.
I'm willing to bet The ppl who complain it's not treated like sport are newer fans who don't understand or empathize with the culture mma as rooted in.

Zuffa picks and chooses based on cost. They won't keep an exciting guy who loses if he costs "too much". They'd rather keep a point fighter who doesn't cost much.
If you're a point fighter you don't have too many bargaining chips since ppl don't wanna watch you. If you're exciting you get bad matchups because when you lose your stock goes down. Either scenario the fighters have to settle for smaller pay days, we get point fighting and the matches we don't want over matches we do. Phone Post
I don't see how your logic makes any sense. Evidence shows that exciting fighters are rewarded with better pay and job security. Phone Post
Exciting guys get more pay if they get OTN bonus. Evidence shows that undercard or no name guys get overlooked in that category.

The guys with win steaks are more likely to get on the main card and or bonuses. Plus the biggest pay days are as title holders. Condit is the perfect example. Exciting that manages to get a win streak (this is rare) will play it safe if there are title implications. We see it all the time actually. A fight looks exciting on paper but if there are potential title implications its a bust. What happens more often than not is both guys play it overly safe.

The exciting guys tend to have spotty records. They have to be exceptionally good to b exciting and have a streak and even more exceptional to get and hold a title ie. Jones. If an exciting guy gets high in the ranks and fights another top guy he either plays it safe or most likely loses.
Plus the only exciting guys with declining or bad records that stay whilst getting good pay are guys with a huge following that can't b ignored. Otherwise they get canned Phone Post
10/2/13 1:22 AM
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jerdney
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kingkoopa -
jerdney -
kingkoopa -
gokudamus stole my name iv - "Then when that company decides that w/l is more important than the actual fight and the fighters the fighters have no choice but to point fight safely in order to get a good w/l ratio. "

But claims like this are contradicted over and over again when guys like Okami, a perennial top contender who is 3-1 in his last four, gets cut while a guy like Matt Brown who at one point had 4 losses (by finish) in 5 fights is kept -- or even a guy like Mir who gets knocked out in every other fight.

You've got people denouncing the UFC for not treating it like a sport and cutting guys who, despite winning and/or being top guys, are cut for being boring; and then you've got other people denouncing the UFC for caring only about w/l and forcing guys to play it safe to avoid being cut for losing. And sometimes the people yelling those two contradictory things are even the same people.
I'm willing to bet The ppl who complain it's not treated like sport are newer fans who don't understand or empathize with the culture mma as rooted in.

Zuffa picks and chooses based on cost. They won't keep an exciting guy who loses if he costs "too much". They'd rather keep a point fighter who doesn't cost much.
If you're a point fighter you don't have too many bargaining chips since ppl don't wanna watch you. If you're exciting you get bad matchups because when you lose your stock goes down. Either scenario the fighters have to settle for smaller pay days, we get point fighting and the matches we don't want over matches we do. Phone Post
I don't see how your logic makes any sense. Evidence shows that exciting fighters are rewarded with better pay and job security. Phone Post
Exciting guys get more pay if they get OTN bonus. Evidence shows that undercard or no name guys get overlooked in that category.

The guys with win steaks are more likely to get on the main card and or bonuses. Plus the biggest pay days are as title holders. Condit is the perfect example. Exciting that manages to get a win streak (this is rare) will play it safe if there are title implications. We see it all the time actually. A fight looks exciting on paper but if there are potential title implications its a bust. What happens more often than not is both guys play it overly safe.

The exciting guys tend to have spotty records. They have to be exceptionally good to b exciting and have a streak and even more exceptional to get and hold a title ie. Jones. If an exciting guy gets high in the ranks and fights another top guy he either plays it safe or most likely loses.
Plus the only exciting guys with declining or bad records that stay whilst getting good pay are guys with a huge following that can't b ignored. Otherwise they get canned Phone Post
In the case of condit, he had literally 1 boring fight. The rest were barn burners. Also, do you really expect every fight to be exciting? It's a sport where so much is on the line. Sometimes fights are boring, sometimes they're great.
I feel like your logic is based upon a lot of assumptions and you fail to provide compelling evidence to back any of it up Phone Post
10/2/13 1:48 AM
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gokudamus stole my name iv
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"Zuffa picks and chooses based on cost. They won't keep an exciting guy who loses if he costs "too much"."

Frank Mir is still making at least $200k per fight. In any case, the idea that they deliberately give exciting fighters bad matchups in the hopes they'll lose and drive down their value is non-sensical. The UFC needs stars. The most valuable thing in the world to them is an exciting fighter who keeps winning.

" They'd rather keep a point fighter who doesn't cost much."

Okami's pay was listed as $42,000. Too rich for Zuffa's blood, so they had to cut him?

In general Zuffa wants exciting fighters. Boring fighters are kept if they are winning and there's no good excuse for cutting them. A boring fighter who loses and isn't getting a title shot anytime in the next century isn't worth too much to them.
10/2/13 3:08 AM
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jerdney
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gokudamus stole my name iv - "Zuffa picks and chooses based on cost. They won't keep an exciting guy who loses if he costs "too much"."

Frank Mir is still making at least $200k per fight. In any case, the idea that they deliberately give exciting fighters bad matchups in the hopes they'll lose and drive down their value is non-sensical. The UFC needs stars. The most valuable thing in the world to them is an exciting fighter who keeps winning.

" They'd rather keep a point fighter who doesn't cost much."

Okami's pay was listed as $42,000. Too rich for Zuffa's blood, so they had to cut him?

In general Zuffa wants exciting fighters. Boring fighters are kept if they are winning and there's no good excuse for cutting them. A boring fighter who loses and isn't getting a title shot anytime in the next century isn't worth too much to them.
Exactly Phone Post
10/2/13 1:14 PM
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kingkoopa
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gokudamus stole my name iv - "Zuffa picks and chooses based on cost. They won't keep an exciting guy who loses if he costs "too much"."

Frank Mir is still making at least $200k per fight. In any case, the idea that they deliberately give exciting fighters bad matchups in the hopes they'll lose and drive down their value is non-sensical. The UFC needs stars. The most valuable thing in the world to them is an exciting fighter who keeps winning.

" They'd rather keep a point fighter who doesn't cost much."

Okami's pay was listed as $42,000. Too rich for Zuffa's blood, so they had to cut him?

In general Zuffa wants exciting fighters. Boring fighters are kept if they are winning and there's no good excuse for cutting them. A boring fighter who loses and isn't getting a title shot anytime in the next century isn't worth too much to them.
HW is and has always been thin 1or 2wins will get you near the title. HW garners more interest to the gen public. Mir is a recognizable name and has been for a while which is why he is still kept with high pay. Wand is further from a title than mir and he's kept with relatively high pay because like Mir he's a big recognizable name.

Like you said a boring fighter that loses isnt worth much. Okami is boring, not a recognizable name and at $42,000 is not worth that to them. They can have 2 exciting guys with bad records for that price.

You actually made my point more valid with the last paragraph. Yeah they want exciting fighters but they also want more money which means lower pay to the fighters but they need it to be justified.

Wait were you agreeing with me cuz your points actually support what I said but by the way it was written my first impression was that you were rebutalling me lol Phone Post
10/2/13 1:19 PM
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kingkoopa
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jerdney -
kingkoopa -
jerdney -
kingkoopa -
gokudamus stole my name iv - "Then when that company decides that w/l is more important than the actual fight and the fighters the fighters have no choice but to point fight safely in order to get a good w/l ratio. "

But claims like this are contradicted over and over again when guys like Okami, a perennial top contender who is 3-1 in his last four, gets cut while a guy like Matt Brown who at one point had 4 losses (by finish) in 5 fights is kept -- or even a guy like Mir who gets knocked out in every other fight.

You've got people denouncing the UFC for not treating it like a sport and cutting guys who, despite winning and/or being top guys, are cut for being boring; and then you've got other people denouncing the UFC for caring only about w/l and forcing guys to play it safe to avoid being cut for losing. And sometimes the people yelling those two contradictory things are even the same people.
I'm willing to bet The ppl who complain it's not treated like sport are newer fans who don't understand or empathize with the culture mma as rooted in.

Zuffa picks and chooses based on cost. They won't keep an exciting guy who loses if he costs "too much". They'd rather keep a point fighter who doesn't cost much.
If you're a point fighter you don't have too many bargaining chips since ppl don't wanna watch you. If you're exciting you get bad matchups because when you lose your stock goes down. Either scenario the fighters have to settle for smaller pay days, we get point fighting and the matches we don't want over matches we do. Phone Post
I don't see how your logic makes any sense. Evidence shows that exciting fighters are rewarded with better pay and job security. Phone Post
Exciting guys get more pay if they get OTN bonus. Evidence shows that undercard or no name guys get overlooked in that category.

The guys with win steaks are more likely to get on the main card and or bonuses. Plus the biggest pay days are as title holders. Condit is the perfect example. Exciting that manages to get a win streak (this is rare) will play it safe if there are title implications. We see it all the time actually. A fight looks exciting on paper but if there are potential title implications its a bust. What happens more often than not is both guys play it overly safe.

The exciting guys tend to have spotty records. They have to be exceptionally good to b exciting and have a streak and even more exceptional to get and hold a title ie. Jones. If an exciting guy gets high in the ranks and fights another top guy he either plays it safe or most likely loses.
Plus the only exciting guys with declining or bad records that stay whilst getting good pay are guys with a huge following that can't b ignored. Otherwise they get canned Phone Post
In the case of condit, he had literally 1 boring fight. The rest were barn burners. Also, do you really expect every fight to be exciting? It's a sport where so much is on the line. Sometimes fights are boring, sometimes they're great.
I feel like your logic is based upon a lot of assumptions and you fail to provide compelling evidence to back any of it up Phone Post
Lol did you even read my post? I said Condit is an exciting fighter who had 1boring fight because he wanted the biggest pay day. You're argument supports mine yet you seem intent on proving me wrong?
Reread what I posted before you try an argument. You basically said what I said.
Reread my other posts too. Im not going to retype every post I made in here Phone Post
10/2/13 2:20 PM
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Jorge Gurgel was a very exciting fighter who won 2 of the night bonuses his last 3 fights, but UFC cut him and when they did, back then the reason was "he lost".

 

There's no consistency.

10/2/13 3:53 PM
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kingkoopa
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Fox censored my Chael screen name -

Jorge Gurgel was a very exciting fighter who won 2 of the night bonuses his last 3 fights, but UFC cut him and when they did, back then the reason was "he lost".

 

There's no consistency.

It comes down to money and popularity. The exception to "cuz he lost" are guys with big names. Ie. Wand, mir, etc... Phone Post
10/3/13 5:13 PM
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Wasa-B
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gokudamus stole my name iv - "Zuffa picks and chooses based on cost. They won't keep an exciting guy who loses if he costs "too much"."

Frank Mir is still making at least $200k per fight. In any case, the idea that they deliberately give exciting fighters bad matchups in the hopes they'll lose and drive down their value is non-sensical. The UFC needs stars. The most valuable thing in the world to them is an exciting fighter who keeps winning.

" They'd rather keep a point fighter who doesn't cost much."

Okami's pay was listed as $42,000. Too rich for Zuffa's blood, so they had to cut him?

In general Zuffa wants exciting fighters. Boring fighters are kept if they are winning and there's no good excuse for cutting them. A boring fighter who loses and isn't getting a title shot anytime in the next century isn't worth too much to them.

I summed it up in the Okami cut threads as he is good enough to still be in the UFC but he's had a long go and imo his loss to Jacare was big set back (as was the Boetsch fight) because those were gonna take him down another level when even when he is on the level, he's not winning in "exciting" fashion.

He got his actual title shot after being injured from an earlier one and since the Anderson fight and even though he is 3-2 since then, I think with the loss to Jacare it became apparent he was not gonna go on another title run. That in itself doesnt mean he should be cut but i still understand that he was given a long time, good record but consistently losing to the elite guys: Franklin, Chael, Andy, Jacare and the big slip up against Boetsch.

Pretty apparent he is able to beat Franklin and Boetsch but still lost.

Not happy about it but i can understand it.
10/3/13 9:07 PM
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Fox censored my Chael screen name
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Again Wasa-B, I have to respectfully disagree. I agree in that I too am not happy about it, but the "understand it" is where I still don't get it.

 

You made a case about Okami, but you are leaving out a good chunk of the rest of the MW division.

 

Case in point-

10 currently signed UFC middleweights are same age or older than Okami, they are still with the company, Okami is not.

 

Again, these guys are SAME AGE or OLDER than Okami

 

 

"He's been with us forever. He was always a tough guy and was right up there, but it's almost like he'd become a gatekeeper. I like Okami, and you've heard me say this many times, that a win over Yushin Okami meant something. But, he was never able to get over the hump and win one of those [significant] fights. We have a lot of guys coming in and I've been saying this all year: We have a full roster and there are guys who deserve opportunities. When you bring guys in, someone has to go. That's why these fights are so meaningful."

 

^^^OLDER than Yushin Okami^^

^^Same age as Okami^^

 

^^Same age as Okami^^

^^Older than Okami^^

^^Same age as Okami^^

^^OLDER than Okami^^

^^Same age as Okami^^
^^OLDER than Okami^^
^^Same age as Okami^^
^^Older than Okami^^
10/3/13 9:09 PM
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Fox censored my Chael screen name
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Trevor Smith is coming off a loss

Tim Boetsh has lost 2 in a row

Nick Ring is coming off a loss

*Luiz Cane is 1-2 his last 3

Leben has lost 3 in a row

 

Do we assume all of those except Luiz Cane are going to be released instead of being offered another UFC fight despite being the same age or older than Okami and coming off a loss?

 

Do we assume if Luiz Cane loses his next fight he will be released?

 

Or will UFC change the guidlines they cut Yushin for when we are talking about these guys?

 

Help me understand that Wasa-B.

10/3/13 9:12 PM
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Fox censored my Chael screen name
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Btw, Chael Sonnen is 1-2 his last 3 fights, and is 4 years older than Okami, and in SIX YEARS, Chael has had 2 finishes, that's including his last fight against Shogun(reason for my current screen name).

10/3/13 10:09 PM
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Wasa-B
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D, to keep it simple. Yes, Okami should still be in the UFC. Im Japanese. Im sad to see him go. It sucks and it points to the credibility of the UFC. I stopped really worrying about that some time ago however. They have the best fighters and all that but we know it does not operated soley on merit and I will never expect it to.

So to compare Okami to those others, yes, Okami is better than them and again, he should still be in it. But i still know where the UFC is coming from in doing this. Not saying I agree with it.
10/3/13 10:15 PM
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Wasa-B
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The Okami situation really is like Fitch. Although Fitch's recent record before he got cut was worse 1-3 in his last 4 where Okami was 3-1 in his last 4 for comparison's sake or 3-2 in last or 3-3 in last 6 (incl the Jacare, Boetsch, Anderson losses) but he still beat 2 top guys in Belcher and Lombard and was dominating Boetsch until mucking that one up.

But there are boring but solid guys that are gonna take out a lot of up and comers. Everyone knows this. Everyone's talked about this. It sucks. But ive left the idealist long ago. Im not gonna get furious about every little battle. It sucks, its not right but its not the end of the world and Okami himself had to know after his loss to Anderson, losing 2 and never being the most popular or exciting was on chop block risk. He was given plenty of time to grow and sustain a solid UFC career. And he did have a legit long and consistent UFC career.

I was surprised that it happened when it did but i also realized that with 2 losses after Anderson, he wasnt exactly on solid ground either.

So i didnt keep it simple, i rambled but here's my summary:

Its not right, it sucks but its not the end of the world to me.
10/3/13 10:16 PM
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Trevor Smith, Chris Leben, and Nick Ring.

Surely Okami makes less than those 3 combined, probably less than 2 of them combined.

 

I don't understand why UFC doesn't just cut those 3 non top 10 not young middleweights and keep a top 10/top 5 middleweight in Okami.

 

Looking at it objectively, Leben is exciting, so I understand keeping him if that's what you're aiming for(excitement), but has anyone on these forums ever got excited about Trevor Smith or a Nick Ring fight?

 

I understand UFC isn't consistent, I understand UFC is about business. That being said, businesswise, it makes no sense.  

 

End rant/

10/3/13 10:19 PM
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Wasa-B
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Fox censored my Chael screen name - 

Trevor Smith, Chris Leben, and Nick Ring.

Surely Okami makes less than those 3 combined, probably less than 2 of them combined.

 

I don't understand why UFC doesn't just cut those 3 non top 10 not young middleweights and keep a top 10/top 5 middleweight in Okami.

 

Looking at it objectively, Leben is exciting, so I understand keeping him if that's what you're aiming for(excitement), but has anyone on these forums ever got excited about Trevor Smith or a Nick Ring fight?

 

I understand UFC isn't consistent, I understand UFC is about business. That being said, businesswise, it makes no sense.  

 

End rant/


It makes business sense because Okami is good enough to take out guys like Belcher and Lombard.
10/3/13 10:20 PM
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Wasa-B
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Here's a stat i posted in another thread:


Okami had 13 wins in the UFC and 5 finishes. That's a 38% finishing rate. Much higher than im sure most people think.
10/3/13 10:21 PM
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Wasa-B
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Leben is not only exciting in the kill or be killed mode but he's got ground on UFC fans minds too. When he pissed in that guy's bed, he sealed some fan connections forever. ;p
10/3/13 10:25 PM
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Kudos Wasa B. You are the first person I've seen to make sense of it, at least some anyways.

"But there are boring but solid guys that are gonna take out a lot of up and comers."

 

Still though, looking at everything from both sides objectively, I was about to comment further to your comment but when I see the last 3 words-"up and comers", I still think about my post a few post above with the fighters/pics.  

TEN fighters UFC has that aren't as good as Okami, aren't younger, aren't "up and comers". 

 

If UFC's middleweight division was a lot deeper with a lot of younger talent, then your argument would have substance in terms of UFC's reasoning.  

 

6 days ago when Okami's release news just broke, I created a thread "Only reason I can think UFC cut Okami is b/c" http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum.posts&thread=2232146 which my initial logic was the exact same as yours, to make room for younger up and comers.

 

Then, to back that argument, I went to see UFC's current MW roster. What I found, totally negated my initial thought. I really wish mma media could see my argument and make it their own and present it to Dana.

10/3/13 10:56 PM
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Garzilla
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ttt....great thread...
10/3/13 11:53 PM
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Wasa-B
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"Then, to back that argument, I went to see UFC's current MW roster. What I found, totally negated my initial thought. I really wish mma media could see my argument and make it their own and present it to Dana."

They gotta have some scrubs or round their roster out with lesser guys, young or not. But Dana already knows your point, they made the decision because of it, yeah? But i think they/Zuffa are aware of the fuss we've made on here even though Okami was never a popular UG fighter. But they probably knew the reaction prior to the decision anyhow.

If Okami had one more fight, i would have wanted it to avenge the Boetsch or Franklin losses. I didnt think he'd get run over by Jacare that badly either.
10/4/13 12:20 AM
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JCoy199 -  Sub Phone Post

2/4/14 5:45 PM
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EatonBeever
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UFC 169 proves my point.

2/4/14 5:55 PM
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jagen
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Not getting into the silly Okami getting cut argument, but I agreed with several paragraphs of your essay.
2/4/14 6:00 PM
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EVILYOSHIDA
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