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S&C UnderGround >> Best cardio excercise for a fat bastard?


3/29/12 3:26 PM
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disbeliever
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Leigh - The person who jogs for 5 miles will burn the SAME calories as the guy who does 5 miles of HIIT (assuming they weigh the same).

But he will burn those calories quicker.


No no. You said in the same amount of time, not distance.

If you run for a total of 30 minutes, and one runner goes steady @ 5mph and the other does HIIT, alternating between sprinting and running @5mph for the rest phase, the HIIT person at the end of 30 minutes would have burned far more calories.

lol @ you trying to change your own argument.

You said "Choose an interval protocol and see how many calories you can burn in 30 minutes. Do a steady state effort and you will burn more calories, with that addition of not killing yourself. ".

This is false. I just told you how. The HIIT person would be alternating between sprinting,a nd going the same speed as the 5mph runner during rest phase. At what point would he ever work LESS than the only 5mph guy to burn less calories?
3/29/12 3:28 PM
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disbeliever
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Leigh - Reading your post again, I'm not sure you understand how energy systems work very well (not meant as an insult). If you go flat out, you will need to recover your anaerobic systems before you sprint off again. You can use active recovery if you wish but it's not efficient as you'll be using valuable ATP (generated by your aerobic system) that is required to recover the anaerobic systems.


So... after 30 minutes the HIIT person would have burned more calories, correct?
3/29/12 3:28 PM
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Leigh
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Andy the man - Intervals all day.

They whip you into shape, LSD (for me) doesn't.

What metric are you using to measure your fitness? How much interval work have you done and how much LSD and how did they compare against the metric you measure them by?
3/29/12 3:37 PM
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Leigh
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Edited: 03/29/12 3:40 PM
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disbeliever - 
Leigh - The person who jogs for 5 miles will burn the SAME calories as the guy who does 5 miles of HIIT (assuming they weigh the same).

But he will burn those calories quicker.


No no. You said in the same amount of time, not distance.

If you run for a total of 30 minutes, and one runner goes steady @ 5mph and the other does HIIT, alternating between sprinting and running @5mph for the rest phase, the HIIT person at the end of 30 minutes would have burned far more calories.

You are being dishonest in your argument here. If an athlete could sprint flat out and then jog at 5 miles an hour, he can certainly maintain more than 5 miles an hour consistently. I didn't think I had to explain that the person wasn't walking. You really think that someone will cover more distance in the same time by alternating sprinting and jogging compared to running fast at a constant speed? Wow
disbeliever - lol @ you trying to change your own argument.

You said "Choose an interval protocol and see how many calories you can burn in 30 minutes. Do a steady state effort and you will burn more calories, with that addition of not killing yourself. ".

This is false. I just told you how. The HIIT person would be alternating between sprinting,a nd going the same speed as the 5mph runner during rest phase. At what point would he ever work LESS than the only 5mph guy to burn less calories?

I haven't changed any argument. Did you drop out of school? Because you seem unable to follow simple logic.

One guy going flat out and then jogging for 5 miles an hour against a guy keeping a steady pace of 10 miles an hour and the 10 mile an hour guy will run much further in 30 minutes.

Look, lets put this to the test if you don't believe me. An old guy at my gym (about 60 years old) can maintain a very modest 12 calories per hour for an hour. You choose any modal you like and any interval period and see if you can burn 720 calories in 30 minutes going as hard as you can during the work periods.

disbeliever -
Leigh - Reading your post again, I'm not sure you understand how energy systems work very well (not meant as an insult). If you go flat out, you will need to recover your anaerobic systems before you sprint off again. You can use active recovery if you wish but it's not efficient as you'll be using valuable ATP (generated by your aerobic system) that is required to recover the anaerobic systems.


So... after 30 minutes the HIIT person would have burned more calories, correct?

No
3/29/12 3:43 PM
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Andy the man
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@ Leigh - Calories/Hr.

I cannot stand doing Intervals due to how brutal they are, But when i do LSD on the Elipitical, All i can think of is "If i did Intervals for the same amount of time i'd be ruined by now".

I do 14 minutes on, 2 minute break, 14 minutes on. Usually see's me to just over 3 miles.

Usually do 15 miles per week of Intervals.

Thing is though, When I've done the same amount of time on the same machine without the 2 minute break, I haven't came off covered in sweat, Haven't came off panting etc.

Just came off thinking "I wasted my time there".

It's personal preference of course, But LSD just does not compare to Interval work for me.
3/29/12 3:43 PM
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disbeliever
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Alright, were missing each others points or something.

"One guy going flat out and then jogging for 5 miles an hour against a guy keeping a steady pace of 10 miles an hour and the 10 mile an hour guy will run much further in 30 minutes."

This is not what I said at all. The scenario I said was a jogger goes steady at 5mph vs a hiit guy working his ass off and also resting goign 5mph. Why are you putting words in my mouth? When did I argue that the steady jogger would go 10mph?

"Look, lets put this to the test if you don't believe me. An old guy at my gym (about 60 years old) can maintain a very modest 12 calories per hour for an hour. You choose any modal you like and any interval period and see if you can burn 720 calories in 30 minutes going as hard as you can during the work periods."

Why do you need to burn more than 720 calories just during the work period? Does the rest period not count in HIIT during this argument? Is the rest period not part of HIIT? Not seeing your point here?
3/29/12 3:50 PM
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LiftStrong
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Tabata's wont do shit for weight loss if you are performing tabata's correctly.

Disbeliever - Of course the method you listed above would burn more calories, because you would be covering a greater distance and because your example is unrealistic. If a person is only able to run at a 5mph clip for 30 minutes, how are they going to be able to run at 5mph and then do sprints in between for 30 mins? They cant. If they could, they would be doing LSD at a quicker pace than 5mph.

I think a lot of people confuse HIIT with just regular interval training. You cant do true HIIT for just some unlimited amount of time, you wear out. All of this being said, I do believe that interval work is great for promoting fat loss. But when someone has to lose a huge sum of weight such as the OP, you need to build up work capacity before you can go balls to the wall and get any benefit.
3/29/12 3:53 PM
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disbeliever
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LiftStrong - Tabata's wont do shit for weight loss if you are performing tabata's correctly.

Disbeliever - Of course the method you listed above would burn more calories, because you would be covering a greater distance and because your example is unrealistic. If a person is only able to run at a 5mph clip for 30 minutes, how are they going to be able to run at 5mph and then do sprints in between for 30 mins? They cant. If they could, they would be doing LSD at a quicker pace than 5mph.

I think a lot of people confuse HIIT with just regular interval training. You cant do true HIIT for just some unlimited amount of time, you wear out. All of this being said, I do believe that interval work is great for promoting fat loss. But when someone has to lose a huge sum of weight such as the OP, you need to build up work capacity before you can go balls to the wall and get any benefit.



So then how does one calculate how far/fast someone sprints during their work period?

Everyone bursts differently. So if some LD runner goes 10mph for 30 minutes, how can you compare that to a sprinter working for 30 minutes and resting jog around 5mph?
3/29/12 3:59 PM
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Leigh
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You don't have to just use the work periods, I think you misunderstood me. You HAVE to count the rest periods too.

I wasn't putting words in your mouth, I was suggesting a much more realistic comparison than your dishonest (maybe not intentionally) one. A fair comparison for one guy going flat out and then doing 5mph during his recovery would be for the LSD guy to be going faster than 5mph. Otherwise, you are not honestly comparing protocols.

Let me know how you get on vs the 60 year old recreational guy :)

Andy, there are a couple of things wrong with your post. Firstly, being ruined is not necessarily a good indicator of how effective a workout is.

Secondly, your intervals are good and are not HIIT. They are in fact much closer to LSD. However, you would burn more calories (but not by much) if you continued to work through the 2 minute rest. You would do 30 minutes straight at a good pace and that would, by definition, be a LSD workout.
3/29/12 4:02 PM
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Leigh
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disbeliever - 
LiftStrong - Tabata's wont do shit for weight loss if you are performing tabata's correctly.

Disbeliever - Of course the method you listed above would burn more calories, because you would be covering a greater distance and because your example is unrealistic. If a person is only able to run at a 5mph clip for 30 minutes, how are they going to be able to run at 5mph and then do sprints in between for 30 mins? They cant. If they could, they would be doing LSD at a quicker pace than 5mph.

I think a lot of people confuse HIIT with just regular interval training. You cant do true HIIT for just some unlimited amount of time, you wear out. All of this being said, I do believe that interval work is great for promoting fat loss. But when someone has to lose a huge sum of weight such as the OP, you need to build up work capacity before you can go balls to the wall and get any benefit.



So then how does one calculate how far/fast someone sprints during their work period?

Everyone bursts differently. So if some LD runner goes 10mph for 30 minutes, how can you compare that to a sprinter working for 30 minutes and resting jog around 5mph?

The comparison is easy. Distance travelled = calories. So distance covered in the quickest time = calories burned in the quickest time.

And its not the sprinter or Usain Bolt would be the marathon champion as well as the 100m champion
3/29/12 10:00 PM
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disbeliever
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Leigh - 
disbeliever - 
LiftStrong - Tabata's wont do shit for weight loss if you are performing tabata's correctly.

Disbeliever - Of course the method you listed above would burn more calories, because you would be covering a greater distance and because your example is unrealistic. If a person is only able to run at a 5mph clip for 30 minutes, how are they going to be able to run at 5mph and then do sprints in between for 30 mins? They cant. If they could, they would be doing LSD at a quicker pace than 5mph.

I think a lot of people confuse HIIT with just regular interval training. You cant do true HIIT for just some unlimited amount of time, you wear out. All of this being said, I do believe that interval work is great for promoting fat loss. But when someone has to lose a huge sum of weight such as the OP, you need to build up work capacity before you can go balls to the wall and get any benefit.



So then how does one calculate how far/fast someone sprints during their work period?

Everyone bursts differently. So if some LD runner goes 10mph for 30 minutes, how can you compare that to a sprinter working for 30 minutes and resting jog around 5mph?

The comparison is easy. Distance travelled = calories. So distance covered in the quickest time = calories burned in the quickest time.

And its not the sprinter or Usain Bolt would be the marathon champion as well as the 100m champion


It's not that simple, you left out a few parts of that equation. But ok.
3/30/12 9:14 AM
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Taku
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 This is how I see it.

On one end of the energy-demand continuum you have sleeping/lying down. This is pure aerobic (with oxygen) and fueled by body fat only. On the other end you have maximal exertion such as sprinting/intense strength training. This is anaerobic (without oxygen) and fueled primarily by immediate stores of ATP, then stored muscle glycogen and circulating blood glucose (blood sugar).
Doing absolutely nothing (i.e., sleeping - the essence of "aerobic") burns very little fat since the energy demands of sleeping is minimal and your body has virtually an unlimited supply of fat. As you increase intensity of effort, the substrate for energy demand shifts to immediate stores (ATP) and eventually muscle glycogen and blood glucose because the muscles do not have time to "aerobically" metabolize fat.

This is where confusion arises: training "aerobically" does burn a greater proportion of body fat, but due to the aforementioned facts, not a whole lot. Stepping up the intensity taps more of the "anaerobic" sources (immediate ATP, muscle glycogen and circulating blood glucose), so it is assumed that working at a higher intensity is not appropriate for targeting body fat stores. Hmmm, makes sense, right?

Not exactly!

The key to fat loss is creating a huge energy-output surplus so stored adipose fats (i.e., mid-section, triceps (women) and buttocks) are tapped to supply energy IN THE RECOVERY PROCESS. That is, working at a high level of intensity uses immediate ATP stores, muscle glycogen, blood glucose and intra-muscular fat stores (yes, fat is available within muscle) - but due to the high-demand exercise the adipose sites are visited during the post-workout recovery period in order to facilitate complete recovery and energy replenishment. E.P.O.C. = Exercise Post-Oxygen Consumption. Look it up.

In my personal experience I have had a great deal of success helping clients change body composition without steady state work.

Intervals do work for fat loss.

TAKU

 
3/30/12 9:25 AM
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Taku
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Remember, jogging/running is a single-support endeavor (one leg is taking all the force each stride). Your joints have to deal with that THOUSANDS of times when you "go for a jog/run" to burn calories. Because of the constant extreme forces exerted, injuries can occur.

Now, if you love to run, then go for it. Similarly, if you love to sky-dive, rock climb, swim, bike, cliff dive, etc., then have at it but understand the risks.

If you want to maximize calorie usage in exercise, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO RUN! Strength train in circuit fashion, get on a Versa Climber and climb (low impact) 2000 feet, walk with alacrity up and down a steep hill for dozens of repetitions, or do any low-impact activity that is demanding. More importantly, monitor your nutritional intake so you take in an appropriate number and type of calories. That is 80% of the weight loss effort.

 In my experience with bodycomposition change, no "cardio" is required what so ever. If one simply trains intensely with weights and controls calories, the problem should fix itself.

TAKU
3/30/12 9:27 AM
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disbeliever
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^ good read
3/30/12 10:02 AM
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vermonter
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Without having read all the posts (i got through most of the first page, and then the argument started to lose me) i can comfortably say that in any given person of any given ability performing distance work will always and forever have greater potential for burning more calories than interval work.

Distance work can be performed over greater total distances (which, velocity x mass being the most important factor for determining energy spent), for longer periods of time, and with greater frequency. Over any important time span (the span at which weight loss would be measured, e.g. in days, weeks, months, etc) it is an inarguable fact that steady distance work has greater potential to burn calories than interval work, and the difference is substantial. Further, the greater the intensity of the interval (up to weight curcuits being the most intense), the greater the disparity between the two.

In addition, intervals often cut into an athletes recovery time, where distance work does not.

That said, given unlimited time and motivation, and no other goals except weight loss, doing both intervals and steady state cardio would be even better.
3/30/12 10:19 AM
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U4EA
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Taku,

That is a good read and a pretty good general overview of the issue/biology of the situation.

Not by any means saying this as I think people on this thread lack the education to know this, but we have to remember: -

1. Body fat is proportional to insulin levels.
2. Insulin levels are proportional to sugar/carbohydrate intake.
3. Test and HGH burn body fat.
4. Insulin is antagonistic to Test and HGH.
5. Hard anaerobics increases Test/HGH production.

To lose weight, you really only need to get your body chemistry and hormone profile sorted out, as Taku mentioned. A diet high in fresh fruit, veg, nuts/seeds and meat and low in processed foods, starches and sugars will significantly adjust body chemistry as the basal insulin drops, the basal Test/HGH levels rise, the metabolite levels drops and the nutrient and fibre levels of the food increases.

I guess what I am trying to say is there is really little point in trying to lose weight by raising your caloric expenditure until you have your body chemistry sorted out and then, in theory, the body fat levels will take care of themselves. Certainly, there is no point in "calories for cardio", where you are loading up on sugar/starch to an intensive exercise program being done with the aim of losing weight. Totally counter productive.

From what we understand, human beings are evolved to eat paleo foods, mostly move around at a slow pace (walking) and occasionally perform anaerobic exercises (chasing, fighting, carry heavy things, climbing).

You won't move mountains of fat overnight, but you can over a longer period of time. And you can get noticable improvement pretty quick. But getting your diet right is the no 1 thing - it primes your body for weight-loss and is required for recovery from heavy exercise anyway.
3/30/12 10:23 AM
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U4EA
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Andy the man - @ Leigh - Calories/Hr.

I cannot stand doing Intervals due to how brutal they are, But when i do LSD on the Elipitical, All i can think of is "If i did Intervals for the same amount of time i'd be ruined by now".

I do 14 minutes on, 2 minute break, 14 minutes on. Usually see's me to just over 3 miles.

Usually do 15 miles per week of Intervals.

Thing is though, When I've done the same amount of time on the same machine without the 2 minute break, I haven't came off covered in sweat, Haven't came off panting etc.

Just came off thinking "I wasted my time there".

It's personal preference of course, But LSD just does not compare to Interval work for me.


I think it's pretty safe to say 2 x 14 mins of intervals will ruin anyone.

Not trying to be a dick here, but why are you doing 14, 2, 14 of LSD? And on a machine?
3/30/12 11:21 AM
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Leigh
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Taku

I agree with you. I do not think substrate is very important. I think there are other ways to train than running and the climber is a good one. And I agree that you do not need to do any cardio to drop fat.

However, steady state work burns calories more quickly than HIIT. It really is simple maths. Energy (calories) = mass x distance covered. Speed is irrelevant. Covering 5 miles in 30 minutes or covering it in 3 hours requires the same number of calories. And we all know that the fastest way to cover a distance is steady state, not intervals.

Additionally, as Doug says, you can do distance work for an hour. Even half of that would be a stretch at HIIT. HIIT is simply not a very effective way to burn calories.
3/30/12 11:38 AM
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Taku
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Hey Leigh,

All I can say is that I have had huge success with my clients without ever doing classic "cardio" exercises. I have had people drop 50 lbs or more just doing intervals on Jump rope and Pad work (Thai Pads w/ Kicks - Knees and punches) along with basic strength exercise. I would consider the Pad work to be a form of intervals, would you?

I personally took my bodyfat from 17% (let myself go there) down to 8% in 55 days doing only strength training and watching my calories.

I do prescribe steady state activity, however it is never for more than 12 minutes and it is hard work. Most often HR between 140-160 BPM (based on training just below the individuals LT). Also I always have them perform it after their strength training (immediately).

Just the way I like to do it...And it seems to produce the desired results.

TAKU
3/30/12 11:43 AM
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Leigh
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Taku, I don't doubt anything you say. I don't think either cardio or intervals are important when losing weight, only diet and strength training (to maintain muscle). I was just pointing out the fallacy of intervals for burning calories and got into a debate/argument with someone who got confused by perceived effort and calorie expenditure.
3/30/12 11:46 AM
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vermonter
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Taku,

I think Leigh agrees that it's possible to lose weight with intervals (or by any method) so long as calories out exceed calories in. Personally, i've lost 45 lbs by diet alone, which is the most important factor.

That said, if the question is, what is the "best" cardio exercise for weight loss, one would assume the one burning the most calories would be the "best." Comparing apples to apples, intervals simply wouldn't be the best by that metric.

Perhaps i'm putting words in his mouth, but i believe that's the only argument he is making, and he is absolutely correct.
3/30/12 11:47 AM
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vermonter
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And then Leigh posts his answer before mine.
3/30/12 11:53 AM
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Leigh
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LOL my brother from a Vermont mother is correct
3/30/12 12:17 PM
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Taku
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 No worries guys...I did not get into the other argument, just sharing my own experience.

Doug, did you see my post about getting an e-mail from you recently? Did you try to contact me or have you been hacked?

TAKU
3/30/12 12:19 PM
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vermonter
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Oh yeah, sorry. I did email you back i think. That wasn't me, so ignore it. Def some problems with my email.

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