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S&C UnderGround >> Building muscle over building strength


5/22/12 11:10 AM
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Leigh
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vermonter - Really? You don't know the feeling of a rep that tells you the next one is going to be hard to grind out? Interesting...

That is correct. Well, I mean I know if I find a rep pretty heavy that the next is going to be heavier still but not if I can lift it or get another 3 reps out
5/22/12 12:21 PM
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Leigh
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Start your own thread if you want to ask questions
5/22/12 12:33 PM
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ArtWanderlei
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arnanderson - Why don't you try a real lifting forum?

 maybe he likes it here.
5/22/12 1:28 PM
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vermonter
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Edited: 05/22/12 1:36 PM
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Leigh - 
vermonter - Really? You don't know the feeling of a rep that tells you the next one is going to be hard to grind out? Interesting...

That is correct. Well, I mean I know if I find a rep pretty heavy that the next is going to be heavier still but not if I can lift it or get another 3 reps out


I don't know man. I can generally tell, especially with low rep sets. I mean if I was looking at 10 reps or 20 reps it might be tough to tell.

When in doubt, stop. Rest. Do more reps after.
5/22/12 1:30 PM
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jeremy hamilton
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arnanderson - Why don't you try a real lifting forum?


What can he get at a "real lifting forum" that he can't get here?
5/22/12 1:36 PM
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vermonter
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arnanderson - Why don't you try a real lifting forum?


Scout ahead for us brother. Don't wait up.
5/22/12 1:40 PM
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vermonter
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jeremy hamilton - 
arnanderson - Why don't you try a real lifting forum?


What can he get at a "real lifting forum" that he can't get here?


What the fuck do you know? You're just a world-class athlete, nothing more. Arnanderson has something important to contribute. Step aside.

PS. You owe me an email motherfucker.
5/22/12 1:48 PM
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jeremy hamilton
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^^^^ I know I do, I really have not forgot and I have been thinking a lot about what we have been talking about. I am putting together a high(er) frequency plan right now that I want to start when I am 12 weeks out or so from my next meet. (sept meet)
5/22/12 1:53 PM
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vermonter
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No worries. I got food poisoning and met some British chick and... well anyway, I haven't been doing my lifting like I should to demo the results of this plan.

I have a feeling Leigh is going to want proof of the high rep portion like you do, so i'm willing to put my results where my mouth is.
5/22/12 1:59 PM
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LordSeano
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I really like the thought of Vermonter's program he set out and was playing around with it.

I'm going to start weight training more seriously again since I stopped trainign for the Tough Mudder.

I was thinking two workouts a week (maybe three?) based around

Workout 1

Squat
Bench
Chins
Dips

Workout 2

Deads
Press
Dips
Chins

Then follow the protocal you set out. First session do 5 x 1 then 5x2 then 5x3 up to 5x5 etc following the idea that if I cant finish the 5 sets I keep the reps the same until i can get through 5 sets

Then up the weight for the next cycle through

I'd probably pyramid up with the chins and dips with proper form reps, (deep dips and dead hangs) 1 rep, rest, 2 reps, rest etc and then back down again.

I think I'm going to give that a try and see how it goes.
5/22/12 2:06 PM
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vermonter
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LordSeano,

Not bad, but the two different presses per workout might be overkill.

Why pyramid the dips and pullups instead of just following the same protocol? I actually developed this specifically for dips and pullups so I'm curious why the change.

Also, consider ladders up instead of pyramids.
5/22/12 2:25 PM
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HULC
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I always found ladders and pyramids to be completely unproductive for me. On BW exercises i found the easiest way to add strength was to do multiple daily sets, all below failure, and the reps just kept adding up.

For hypertrophy, i'm trying out HIT at the moment and seeing how that goes. I'm getting some results, loving how short the workouts are, but not really impressed with how drained i feel doing HIT 3x per week.
5/22/12 2:42 PM
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Leigh
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vermonter - I have a feeling Leigh is going to want proof of the high rep portion

What high reps? Have I missed something?

I am skeptical of how much volume I'm going to have to include though - I have managed to maintain my strength from a 5-3-1 program and I'm not going to do more volume than that
5/22/12 3:05 PM
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jeremy hamilton
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Leigh - 
vermonter - I have a feeling Leigh is going to want proof of the high rep portion

What high reps? Have I missed something?

I am skeptical of how much volume I'm going to have to include though - I have managed to maintain my strength from a 5-3-1 program and I'm not going to do more volume than that


Doug has a theory about high reps done in a conjugate method with low reps will help build strength. I think you helped him come up with it in a way. I should just let him explain.
5/22/12 3:06 PM
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LordSeano
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vermonter - LordSeano,

Not bad, but the two different presses per workout might be overkill.

Why pyramid the dips and pullups instead of just following the same protocol? I actually developed this specifically for dips and pullups so I'm curious why the change.

Also, consider ladders up instead of pyramids.


Whats the difference between ladders and pyramids sorry I may have actiually meant ladders?

1 rep, rest, 2 reps, rest, 3 reps, rest etc up to x reps and then back down again. Is that a pyramid or ladder.

Reason I assumed I would do that is that there's no dip belt at my gym so after getting to 5 sets of 5 I would have no way of increasing the resistance
5/22/12 3:12 PM
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Leigh
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jeremy hamilton - 
Leigh - 
vermonter - I have a feeling Leigh is going to want proof of the high rep portion

What high reps? Have I missed something?

I am skeptical of how much volume I'm going to have to include though - I have managed to maintain my strength from a 5-3-1 program and I'm not going to do more volume than that


Doug has a theory about high reps done in a conjugate method with low reps will help build strength. I think you helped him come up with it in a way. I should just let him explain.

Ok cheers mate, yeah I'll wait for his explanation
5/22/12 3:22 PM
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jeremy hamilton
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LordSeano - 
vermonter - LordSeano,

Not bad, but the two different presses per workout might be overkill.

Why pyramid the dips and pullups instead of just following the same protocol? I actually developed this specifically for dips and pullups so I'm curious why the change.

Also, consider ladders up instead of pyramids.


Whats the difference between ladders and pyramids sorry I may have actiually meant ladders?

1 rep, rest, 2 reps, rest, 3 reps, rest etc up to x reps and then back down again. Is that a pyramid or ladder.

Reason I assumed I would do that is that there's no dip belt at my gym so after getting to 5 sets of 5 I would have no way of increasing the resistance


Going back down again is a pyramid. Starting over at 1 and building back up is a ladder. 1,2,3. 1,2,3... A ladder wont fatigue you as fast and will allow for better work to be done.
5/22/12 4:07 PM
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vermonter
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Edited: 05/22/12 4:13 PM
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LordSeano - 
vermonter - LordSeano,

Not bad, but the two different presses per workout might be overkill.

Why pyramid the dips and pullups instead of just following the same protocol? I actually developed this specifically for dips and pullups so I'm curious why the change.

Also, consider ladders up instead of pyramids.


Whats the difference between ladders and pyramids sorry I may have actiually meant ladders?

1 rep, rest, 2 reps, rest, 3 reps, rest etc up to x reps and then back down again. Is that a pyramid or ladder.

Reason I assumed I would do that is that there's no dip belt at my gym so after getting to 5 sets of 5 I would have no way of increasing the resistance


Jeremy is correct. Pyramid up and down, ladder is just up.

for you, i'd recommend ditching pyramids and ladders in favor of the method i've already outlined, but just go over 5 rep sets with the pullups and dips. There's nothing wrong with higher sets, but once you get into the teens you will hit a wall. Reps in that range aren't good at building strength which is a factor of muscular endurance, so you'll get stymied.

It'll take you a few months to get to that point though, potentially, and enough time to figure out if buying your own dip belt is worth it to you. I just use chains with a clip to hold the weight on (much cheaper than a belt) but your gym may have a rule against it.
5/22/12 4:12 PM
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vermonter
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Leigh - 
jeremy hamilton - 
Leigh - 
vermonter - I have a feeling Leigh is going to want proof of the high rep portion

What high reps? Have I missed something?

I am skeptical of how much volume I'm going to have to include though - I have managed to maintain my strength from a 5-3-1 program and I'm not going to do more volume than that


Doug has a theory about high reps done in a conjugate method with low reps will help build strength. I think you helped him come up with it in a way. I should just let him explain.

Ok cheers mate, yeah I'll wait for his explanation


Jeremy explained it well enough. While I think low rep high frequency training is the best stand-alone method for strength development, I think a conjugate program with high rep sets included is even better, but as i mentioned earlier in the thread, something I'm still working on in terms of program design and testing.

I got the idea as a tweek to my prior pullup and dip program that i had good success with after reading all of your old threads about distance running with low HR vs HIIT. After we did our little experiment on you, I immediately began considering lifting applications and voila... only time will tell now, but if i can get my shit together I should be able to prove it works.
5/22/12 4:30 PM
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LordSeano
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Cool cheers - any thoughts on the 2 pressing exercise issue?
5/22/12 4:40 PM
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Leigh
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I dunno if you can mix principles with cardio and strength but its all learning Phone Post
5/22/12 5:29 PM
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vermonter
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LordSeano - Cool cheers - any thoughts on the 2 pressing exercise issue?


I'd stick with one.
5/22/12 5:29 PM
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vermonter
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Leigh - I dunno if you can mix principles with cardio and strength but its all learning Phone Post


I got this homie, don't you worry.
5/22/12 7:30 PM
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LordSeano
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vermonter - 
LordSeano - Cool cheers - any thoughts on the 2 pressing exercise issue?


I'd stick with one.


Sorry I shoudl have been clearer (as I appreciate the input)

Are you saying drop dips say but then replace it with another exercise or just then keep to a three exercise workout

W1 - Squat, Bench, Chins

W2 - Dead, Dips/Bench, Chins

or

W1 - Squat, Bench, [ ], Chins
W2 - Deads, Dips, [ ], Chins


Also do you think there would be a material difference if you did bench (or dips) in both workouts or alternated between the two?

Thakns again for the input
5/23/12 10:03 AM
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vermonter
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Edited: 05/23/12 10:03 AM
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The first one.

Probably no difference.

"Also do you think there would be a material difference if you did bench (or dips) in both workouts or alternated between the two?"

Do which one you like the most.

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