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Judo/Sambo UnderGround >> Judo and BJJ


6/9/12 9:07 PM
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Chocolate Shatner
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I think the main point that many folks (especially Americans) are stating with the need to cross train is hinged on a comment judom makes above.

"2. If you are not a competitive player but are serious about Judo, then chances are you are an amateur and you only have few hours a week anyway. So go and study Judo properly. Judo is so incredibly rich, that if you need anything else to "supplement" your Judo it means your club sucks. "

The last statement is very key. In America, most clubs do, in fact, suck. Players who have such holes in their games that you could drive a truck through, combined with a miniscule amount of competitive outlets, limited training partners, etc.

While some may say "Well, if you don't like it, go to SJSU or Jimmy Pedro's club, etc...."

Great, if you are someone willing to make those sacrifices to try and make the upper echelon of competitive players. For most people, moving hundreds or thousands of miles away to find a team that doesn't "suck" isn't an option.

I even see it in Japan, where I live in the "inaka" area. The local players were so comfortable in their little cocoon of "well, we're good, but we obviously can't compete with the guys from Tokyo or Osaka, we're just inaka players..." that their games were rather weak in many areas. In my first three tournaments, I arm locked 5 guys. It was a kick in the pants, and at least players started getting better at submission defense (although I still haven't been pinned in 5 years at the local level). Let's not even get into the whole mind set of "if you aren't turning for a throw like uchi mata or seio nage, then you're just doing wrestling style power judo, and you suck....", because I don't have the time to talk about that.

My main point is, not everyone has the availability to high quality instructors or training like Josh Resnick has (or can give), or judom, or others. For those players, yeah, doing some "cross training" to build your overall grappling ability is not only useful, but necessary.

6/11/12 11:42 PM
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SiuHung
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Well said Mr. Shatner.
6/12/12 3:58 PM
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Jumbo Reverse Shrimp
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 And depending on your Judo school schedule, you can get more mat time by cross training. A lot of schools only have class a few times a week and they may not always coincide with your schedule.
6/15/12 4:16 AM
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JoshuaResnick
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CS... yes, you are right. i could not agree more.

however, that does not mean what judom, and even i, said is wrong. they are two differing sides that matter based upon the community and environment.

case in point.. lets say my own son, solomon, grows up and really wants to be good at judo. he is 4 now, so lets say he is 8 or 9 and would like to do more than just judo 2 or 3 times a week. will i take my son to bjj? no. i'd take him to a wrestling club. why? wrestlers have far more intensity and they will fight harder.

what about when he is 12 and starting to fight with chokes? maybe i'll take him to bjj, but i still doubt it as wrestling still has more to offer him, IMHO.

when he is 15-18 would i take him to bjj? if he wanted to go, sure.

but judo and wrestling have more legitimate sport aspects and opportunities to compete in college and beyond. that means something to me. if it means something to my son then great... if not, then i hope he picks something else where i can go and enjoy watching my son work hard and smile and love what he does..
6/15/12 5:24 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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I would agree that doing wrestling would be a great thing, especially for a child, instead of BJJ. As you state, it teaches fighting spirit and intensity that a lot of clubs tend to lack.

Probably the best wrestling for cross-over to judo would be Greco Roman, but obviously for kids it tends to be only folkstyle.

This week, I showed some guys in my judo club a video of Karelin in the world championships, where he hit his body lift throw twice in a row. They were in awe, saying they thought it was impossible for someone to do that before they actually saw it done.
6/17/12 9:23 AM
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judom
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CS, I mostly agree with you.

The key problem in the U.S. is that the USA Judo federation is somehow not popularizing Judo properly.

Even worldwide, IJF is not doing a good job marketing Judo. They are relying too much on their "Olympic" status.
6/17/12 2:49 PM
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Mr Mike from NC
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The dojo I attend is small, but focused on competition, so it can't be that bad. A father brought his son in because he wanted him to learn to be better balanced on his feet for wrestling and, he thought Judo would help. It did.
One of our players has a chance for a Div. I wrestling scholarship.

Other than SJSU, what universities have good Judo programs? Since Title 9 (or is it another number) seems to be hurting wrestling programs, maybe Judo might be a good replacement, since it does have a sizable women's representation?

I think BJJ would be better if it's rules were based around submissions, rather than points. The new rules that Rose Gracie is using in her tournaments with 15 minute time periods and, a disqualification for both if their are no submissions has fighting spirit written all over it.

We have a fellow who is a Marine serving in Afghanistan whose only done BJJ type grappling on base and, he always goes for submissions during Ne Waza. Real fighting spirit.
6/17/12 5:10 PM
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Chocolate Shatner
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judom - CS, I mostly agree with you.

The key problem in the U.S. is that the USA Judo federation is somehow not popularizing Judo properly.

Even worldwide, IJF is not doing a good job marketing Judo. They are relying too much on their "Olympic" status.



Yeah, I do agree that US Judo, and the IJF in general, relies too much on their "Olympic Status" as some sort of mystical magical way to get people to flock in the door.

The problem is, the Olympics doesn't have the same glamor it once did with the rise of professional sports. Lets face it, in America, if you win an Olympic gold, you get your face on a Wheaties box. If you can hit a round white leather ball well about 30% of the time, you get millions of dollars. If you can put a round rubberized ball through an orange hoop set at 10 feet above the ground with a high degree of success, you get a shoe endorsement deal that makes the millions you get for playing seem like chump change.

Considering the above, with all three having about the same percentage of success, which do you think an athletically gifted kid in the USA is going to do?

Then of course, lets add to it the fact that US Judo seems to do everything it can to in many ways try to redefine judo as a sport instead of its martial past. The reasons why I can understand, but the fact is Americans who are interested in judo aren't looking for a sport. Saying you are a sport will not get people through the doors initially. Judo needs to embrace the fact that it is a martial art, and that it was developed as a form of self defense an fighting, that now has a sporting competition aspect to it. This is what TKD has done, much more successfully than judo, and has grown in size to be much larger than judo in the USA.

If US Judo and the IJF continue on their self defeating single minded focus of "we're an Olympic sport!" they will never grow in the USA. Guess what other Olympic sports judo could compare itself to? Ping-pong, kayaking, BMX racing, and trampoline jumping, all of which on the Olympic level require a huge amount of athletic ability, and all of which are seen by 99% of the US public as something other than an Olympic sport.
6/17/12 7:09 PM
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Jumbo Reverse Shrimp
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 Yes, it really is an Olympic sport.
6/19/12 11:35 AM
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Outkaster
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Edited: 06/19/12 11:39 AM
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TKD is considered a joke because of the watered down WTF shit that's out there. It's too bad because back when I was starting in the 1970's there was such a different attitude towards it. It would be a shame if Judo goes down that path.
6/20/12 8:39 PM
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Chocolate Shatner
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Outkaster, I would agree that WE consider TKD to be a joke. Many of the serious martial artists in the world also consider TKD to be a joke. BUT, the average person who isn't there, and is looking for a martial art to enroll their kid in, doesn't. They look at the following:

fun
looks cool
talks about anti-bullying
talks about physical fitness
talks about martial spirit


then, and only then, after loads and loads of the above, does it mention that it is also an Olympic sport. Judo seems to market itself on the opposite.
6/21/12 12:51 AM
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OCJudoTrngCtr
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 There is absolutely nothing that USA Judo, USJA, or USJF can do to make judo more popular in the USA. Nada, zero.  They can talk all they want about it. Heck, they even have nice little slide shows with all their plans and ideas about growing the sport. I've seen them for the last 20 years.  Nothing ever comes of it, neither should it be expected.

USA Taekwondo doesn't make Taekwondo any more popular. Neither does USA Karate. Those organizations came about many years after both disciplines arrived in the USA.  Many, many years after they were already well established in the United States, and well AFTER their hyper-growth years.

In the United States, what works is using free market and capitalist principles.  Organizations like the above, are anything but that.

Studies have shown that in the USA, nearly 90% of the people who practice martial arts do so within a 2 mile radius of their home.  Without being in that two mile radius, you are leaving out 90% of potential members.

If anything, the whole judo community mentality has killed any chance of the sport ever growing.  It would take a complete rejection of what they've done for over 100 years at this point. It can happen, but not likely.

The martial arts that do well in the USA share a few things in common.  They have instructors who 1) embrace modern marketing and successful interpersonal skills and methods   2) employ sound business and management models 3) customer centric  4) professional instruction.

Take a look at Jimmy Pedro's website. Jimmy is applying many, if not all of the same principles that have created thousands of successful martial arts programs throughout the United States.  You don't have to be a world champion either.  Here is another school for whom I have an incredible amount of respect.  It is Silicon Valley Judo.  Here is their website.  svjudo.com/

There is absolutely no encouragement at the dojo level or higher for students to go out and start their own dojos. In fact, I've seen too many examples of it being discouraged.  Many might disagree with me, but if you want the sport to grow,  shodans and above should be encouraged to leave the nest and start their own clubs.  If an instructor created 25 other instructors, that is much better than creating 50 national champions. At least in terms of growing the sport.

Look what Carlos Gracie Jr. accomplished in less than a decade in the United States. There were many here before him, but Carlos had the vision and business acumen to create an organization in Gracie Barra that has reached hundreds of cities and tens of thousands of students.  In terms of size, everyone else is playing catch-up in the BJJ world.




6/21/12 5:45 AM
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judoblackbelt
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Good thoughtfull,honest insight into today's judo in the US. Their instructors are a mixture of young/old and well trained. Their pricing is similar to BJJ. There are BJJ schools near me who have did exactly what you have said. Their blackbelts are opening up there own schools but they have one thing judo doesn't is they all combine gi,no-gi and MMA under one roof. This is the current appeal to the younger folks. And this is a result of their instructors having fighting careers in all 3 disciplines. Judo will only embrace judo.
6/21/12 6:35 AM
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Chocolate Shatner
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jbb,

I will agree that the focus of most instructors on ONLY doing gi wearing judo classes is a detriment within the US. Even on this board, I have read comments from certain highly respected forum members that doing a no-gi judo class isn't judo. Which, honestly, IMO, is BS.

If judo keeps within its shell of being just an Olympic sport, then it will continue to wither.
6/21/12 6:51 AM
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Spartan79
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Chocolate Shatner - jbb,

I will agree that the focus of most instructors on ONLY doing gi wearing judo classes is a detriment within the US. Even on this board, I have read comments from certain highly respected forum members that doing a no-gi judo class isn't judo. Which, honestly, IMO, is BS.

If judo keeps within its shell of being just an Olympic sport, then it will continue to wither.
Agree ! Phone Post
6/21/12 9:41 PM
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OCJudoTrngCtr
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Edited: 06/21/12 11:31 PM
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 jbb,

I think there are very limited benefits to marketing no-gi, while there are very real benefits to marketing the MMA side.  However, I don't think in the long run it benefits anyone to market themselves as something they are not.

Judo is not MMA, and I honestly do not think most judo instructors are qualified to teach an MMA curriculum. I do believe that teaching judo within an MMA facility or another martial arts facility is fine as a low cost/ low risk alternative to a professionally run  dedicated facility.

A good example of someone using the above model is Chuck Jefferson. He has Chuck Jefferson Judo in San Jose, and he shares space with a Cross Fit gym.  Hopefully, in a few years he will grow it to the point where he can have his own dedicated space, and teach full time.  Here is his website.  cjjudo.com/
 
Also check out the video of the space he built within the crossfit gym. I think it looks very nice. cjjudo.com/video/chuck-jefferson-s-judo-2012

Its also not evident that successful BJJ academies need to emphasize MMA or no-gi curriculums. In fact, we can look at a very successful program and what they emphasize to potential members who visit their website.

The most successful BJJ school in California that I am aware of outside of the Torrance Academy is Gracie Barra America located in Irvine.  You can search their website throughout and you will not find the word no-gi. They do teach some no-gi in their advanced classes, and maybe some others but that is not how they market Gracie Barra America on their website.  In fact, you will find that they accentuate what are commonly considered tradional martial arts values and principles.

If you look at how the classes are scheduled, you won't find no-gi or MMA mentioned at all.  You will see an Anti-Bullying campaign, and also look how much they value women in their program.

Which brings me to another point. When I looked at the entries for the IBJJF Worlds in Long Beach, there were 442 entries for women from white belt to black belt.  Yes, I took the time to count them, though I didn't verify the count. That's not including juniors. Nearly every Woman's division was bigger than the Men's divisions we had at Sr. Nationals. Its more entries than most of our Junior Nationals.  Ten years ago, it would have been a rarity to see a woman training in class.

But to get back on point, I think there are  things that judo instructors can do to teach judo and broaden its appeal, without trying to come up on a google search for "MMA".




 
6/22/12 2:46 AM
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Spartan79
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http://www.carlsongracie.org/schedule.php
This is a website for the BJJ club near me. You can Train GI, no GI or Mma. So I don't think your post is completely on the mark.
Judo maybe dosnt need to be anymore than it is . This is true but I like nogi judo and judo in Mma is there a demand ? Yes would it hurt Judo? No IMHO not every judoka is going to be a world level player and these players are the majority. Why not add a few more options to their judo? Phone Post
6/22/12 8:15 PM
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OCJudoTrngCtr
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Edited: 06/22/12 10:06 PM
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 "A shoemaker makes shoes. You have to stick with what your good at"

Spartan79,

The above quote is taken from an interview with Steve Cohen, one of the most successful investors on the planet. It was advice that his father had given him in his youth.  Some of his big losses came when he didn't heed that advice.

I did not say that judoka can't teach no-gi or even judo based MMA. What I did say is that there are very few who have the expertise to do so, and that no-gi has limited appeal.  About 50 miles down the road from me, Gokor teaches a judo/sambo based system and he's been very successful with it.  An exception, not the rule.  The instructor Juan Montenegro at OCJTC has privately taught no-gi to many names that you probably know, but I won't discuss.  

I did visit the website you posted, and for all I know the instruction is fantastic, they are wildly successful, and they have a waiting list to get in.   What I do know is that even though they might be "the" BJJ club near you; that they would more than likely not get much attention if they were in my area. The website is not very good. Nor does it take away from my point. In an extremely competitive environment, the most popular BJJ school in Orange County does not emphasize no-gi training on its website.

I'd like to share with you the reality of the competitive landscape for martial arts in Southern California.

The first road as I leave my little neighborhood has 3 BJJ schools on it within 1 1/2 miles. All of them in small shopping malls.  Two of them are run by world champions.  One of them was a coach on TUF and was Cyborg's jiujitsu coach for a period (he also cornered her in some events, and he was also the BJJ coach of a few of my sons).  At the other World Champion's place, Ishii trained for about 1 year including MMA and Muay Thai, and some of our members who live in the same city train with him as well.   About 1 year ago, a brown belt also opened his own place, and is staying in business.

That's just BJJ.  There are also at least 10 more martial arts facilities teaching TKD, MMA, Kickboxing, and some things you never heard of. I swear they must have made some of them up.

Go out to the next large street/intersection and there are even more facilities teaching BJJ, MMA or both. Several of the schools have UFC and MMA stars and personalities running them or training at them.  Again, plenty of traditional martial arts offerings as well.

Go over one town, even though its smaller the competition is just as heated.  Within less than 1 square mile I know of 5 places teaching BJJ with another one that is opening up. The new one opening has world champion  brothers teaching in the same business complex as a BJJ school that is already there!  Again, they have plenty of other MMA/traditional martial arts offerings in the area as well.

I could probably repeat this exercise for nearly every city in Southern California.

This is the competitve landscape that judo finds itself in Southern California.  The choices are so vast for the consumer.

As a personal aside, I answered literally thousands of e-mails over the last decade making inquiry about judo.  Not once did I ever get a question about teaching no-gi judo from someone who was looking at learning a martial art.  I did get a few inquiries from MMA and BJJ students about it. Mostly for when they were training for a fight or the No-Gi worlds.

At the end of the day, what you should offer your students is what you're good at, and for which you can provide value. 

A great place to begin would be to offer what the other facilities offer in terms of convenience.  Start with training at least 6 days a week, with hours that fit nearly everyone's schedule.  Break classes down into kids, youth, teen & adult, and women's classes.  Schedule a newaza class or two during the week, and maybe a self defense class as well.   Heck, even do something like a judo exercise class in the mornings prior to work.  Those are things you can do without pretending to be an expert at MMA or going no-gi.

      
6/22/12 9:01 PM
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OCJudoTrngCtr
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 Anyway, I think I've strayed too far away from my original reason for posting. Namely, there is a tendency in the US judo community to blame the national organizations for the lack of growth that judo has experienced over the last 40 years.  There are many criticisms I could lob at them, but that isn't one of them.


6/23/12 9:22 AM
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judoblackbelt
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To OCjudoTrngCtr- I watched Chucks's video and what a treasure a person like Chuck Jefferson is teaching judo. I met him once at the Senior Nationals in Virginia beach when he lost in the championship match to Bobby Lee. Chuch's has the complete game and his transitions to armbars is unreal. Your second point on the number of participants in BJJ tournaments compared to our Nationals is painfully true. I can only speak her in Michigan where MMA/BJJ gi and no-gi are all marketed under one roof along with fitness classes that really appeal to women. Women attract other women to these types of programs. And sometimes our best judoka do teach judo at these facilites. But judo in general doesn't have the complete program that is attracting the younger generation and you do have to travel to find a good judo school where like you said there are good BJJ schools everywhere.
6/23/12 10:21 AM
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OCJudoTrngCtr
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Edited: 06/23/12 11:42 AM
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 jbb,

I don't think there is anything wrong with co-marketing, sharing space etc. with other martial arts.  I think there is a lack of entrepreneurial spirit and risk taking in the judo community that has frustrated its growth.

When the OCJTC instructor wanted to go out on his own, he did it with $0.00.  He had more than 6 different offers within the week we decided to leave because of the relationships we had built throughout the martial arts community. He became the very first judo instructor in America to operate inside a Gracie Barra gym.  He now shares a small space with multiple Japanese martial arts. He's my friend, a great instructor with wonderful technique but not wonderful business sense. He doesn't want to teach full time at this point either.  There's nothing wrong with that.  Lots of judoka feel that way. I think mainly because they've been told a million times that you can't teach judo and make money.

Its been my experience that judo survives in such an  environment as stated above, but it does not flourish and grow. My interest is in growth and opportunity.

Prior to OCJTC,  Juan and I were a big part of  building a club up to well over 100 members that was a judo dedicated facility.  So, I've seen it from both sides now.  I also have a fairly unique background in that judo was the sole source of my own father's income for more than 7 years when i was a kid.  He got a fantastic business opportunity and gave his business free to his best student.  That student closed within a year.

I have no doubts that BJJ has been helped immensely by the spectacle that is MMA and the close linkage that it has with the sport.  There is not going to be a new spectacle that judo is going to be associated with. The spectacle is the Olympics but its just a small microscopic part of that.  If there was anything new, it wouldn't come from any efforts of the national organizations.

Please don't get me wrong. I don't think that judo will outgrow some of the other martial arts. What I think it can do is grow alot more than it has. 










    
6/23/12 11:17 AM
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OCJudoTrngCtr
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 Chuck Jefferson is indeed a treasure in the judo world.  I had the great honor of watching him compete as a teenager in So Cal and watch him grow through his years at SJSU.  Chuck did a few camps for me, and if you ever want a clinician he's pretty awesome.

Justin Flores was another incredibly talented So Cal judoka.  If Justin didn't have to deal with the injuries he had, I have little doubt he could have been top 5 in the world.  On their best days, Chuck and Justin could compete with anyone.  He's another fantastic teacher.

The Camarillo brothers were also competing as juniors at the same time.  They are known for their BJJ now, but their judo was very pretty Japanese style.  Their ashiwaza was great to watch.   No use going into how well they teach either.

I completely agree with you about Chuck's transistions.  Between him, Ronda, and Justin I don't think there was anyone else in the USA near their level.  I could probably count on one hand the rest of the world  who deserve to be there, though I believe Ronda was the absolute best last quadrennial.

Chuck is very smart, and he's been in the martial arts industry for more than a decade.  I think he has a great chance of making his club succeed.
6/23/12 2:37 PM
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judom
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OCJudo,

I am not from the U.S. and don't live there anymore, but I did spend few years there on and off for work.

My experience as a foreigner that has a heavy (European) Judo background was that:

-> Judo is severely under-marketed. Although there are few clubs that attract quite a few small kids, most have poorly structured adult programs.

-> Comparatively, BJJ is super well-marketed. There were academies everywhere with nice web sites and good instructors.

-> Surprisingly, at Judo classes I always met BJJ guys, who wanted to learn Judo. Most good BJJ places were also open to learning Judo.


-> Training wise, the training I observed and experience at all of the BJJ places I visited (including the top academies) was inferior to what you'd get in Europe in the good Judo places. It was less intense, shorter, easier and generally with fewer people. To me, it felt very commercial: they had classes per belt, and the classes are really very short.

-> Still, BJJ/newaza allows you to make quick progress so people were very satisfied with it. I also observed many older people in BJJ and women too: its much easier on the body and allows you to see success quickly. I was impressed with how well marketed and structured the whole thing in BJJ was.

-> During both my visits to Judo and BJJ places, I got MANY MANY requests to teach Judo, especially by BJJ guys. One of the instructors even offered me to teach Judo class there. People several times asked me for private lessons. I could not accept this due to my job, but it really is something you never see in Europe: nobody asks for private lessons.

-> More importantly, there is demand for Judo, definitely, but somehow U.S. Judo is not well-organized. It was even hard for me to find all clubs on the U.S. Judo web site.

Frankly, if U.S. Judo gets their act together and makes a good business plan, I think Judo will prosper well in the U.S.

I have to say I was sad to see in BJJ so many people that sign up, so clueless about what Judo is, but those that stay longer and are more serious, definitely have a huge desire to learn proper Judo.
6/23/12 3:10 PM
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OCJudoTrngCtr
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Edited: 06/23/12 3:14 PM
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 judom,

You get no argument for me about poorly constructed adult programs. That is a discussion that could take up months.  You are absolutely correct about many request from BJJ guys to teach them judo. 

Remember that BJJ really started in America in Southern California. We've been teaching judo to BJJ students for nearly two decades.  Four of those six people who I spoke to when the OCJTC instructor went out on his own were at BJJ academies who offered immediately to open their doors to us.  It was unreal, and actually quite an honor for Juan to know how respected he was.

I also agree about newaza being easier to make progress than tachiwaza.  I don't buy that as a reason for failure.  Americans do many things that are tough and just as tough as judo every day. Many of which still draw people to them.  Its more an excuse to fail than an impediment to success IMO.  Yonezuka Sensei has been teaching judo for nearly 50 years as his profession.

Where we aren't in agreement is the marketing.  All those academies weren't relying on an NGB to do their marketing. They were doing it by themselves.  They were acting as small businessmen trying to grow their business.  Carlos Jr. took it 3 steps further. 

What was pretty awesome to watch is the reaction that happened as soon as people realized how Gracie Barra was growing.  All of a sudden, instructors who hadn't tried to push their students to open academies were starting their own associations.

Here is your key statement.  "There were academies everywhere with nice web sites and good instructors."

How do you think that happened?  It was because they saw other BJJ teachers being successful teaching for a living and knew it was possible.  It had absolutely nothing to do with an NGB. It had to do with ambition and entreprenuerial spirit.  Success breeds success.


NGB's like any other entity that is political exists to further their agenda, not that of the entreprenurial.  Any goal or ambition that is outside of that construct is either considered a threat or of no consequence.

One instructor convincing 10 students to go out and teach will further growth more than any judo committee, grand scheme, big idea marketing plan out of an NGB.  I'm not kidding at all.

For the most part, a martial arts business is not any different from any other small business enterprise that people start every day.  Most small businesses are not looking for some entity to make it work for them, with the exception of a franchise system.




   
6/23/12 10:09 PM
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OCJudoTrngCtr
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 Judom,

There's another thing you wrote that I think lends some insight.

"Training wise, the training I observed and experience at all of the BJJ places I visited (including the top academies) was inferior to what you'd get in Europe in the good Judo places. It was less intense, shorter, easier and generally with fewer people. To me, it felt very commercial: they had classes per belt, and the classes are really very short."

The key word in your statement is "commercial".  The reason many of the other martial arts studios are successful is because they are commercial.  Let's take a look at the average class length of a successful BJJ program. Again, I'll refer to Gracie Barra America.

gbirvine.com/about-us/schedule/

Now let's look at Pedro's Judo Center which I believe is the most successful judo program in the country as it has more than 250 students.  At a minimum, it is the most successful from a revenue standpoint.

www.pedrosmartialarts.com/classes.php

If you'll notice, for the same age groups they have identical or nearly identical class lengths.  My guess is that they've actually both looked at the research which tells them how long of a class is ideal for those age groups as well as convenient for the parents. Jimmy has been in the martial arts industry a long time and has obviously gotten great advice away from the judo community.  It would not surprise me in the least if Jimmy started franchising or sets up an association some time in the future.

Now if you walked into any of Jimmy's classes for any other group than Team Force, you might come away with the same sentiment as you had visiting the BJJ schools regarding its commercial aspects.  Conversely, if you were in the training sessions where the black belts were getting ready for the Worlds or PanAms in BJJ, you might have some "holy shit" moments rolling with them in terms of ability in newaza.

Here's the key takeaway.  If you run your program for your competitors, you will not be successful in the USA.  You run your business for your paying clientele as they are the ones that provide the space, and allow you the time to work with your competitors. You train your competitors during the hours that your clientele don't really want to attend (Team Force 9:00am-11:00am and earlier example; or late at night as some others). Jimmy Pedro has proven it works in judo as much as it does in any other MA.





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