UnderGround Forums
 

Judo/Sambo UnderGround >> Judo and BJJ


7/3/12 10:52 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
TEOMOFE
20 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 2/9/09
Posts: 456
Wow, this is a great thread. I'm actually meant to be doing something else right now, but I've been sucked in :)

In regards to watering down judo - I think some thought needs to be given as to what that means. For example, if you're a national/international player, *of-course* anything less then that level of training is going to see watered down. On the other hand, 95% of people are not, cannot or will not training to that level. I know people like to remenisce about the old days, about walking uphill in snow to the dojo, to train 11 hrs, then sleep on tatame (I'm exeggarating of course, but you get my point).

I think the trick is to find something in-between nat/int'l camp prep and the local YMCA kiddie fest. That - I think - is what people really want. A good sweat, a good workout, and some good skills. Some sense of development and progress.

One thing that we do at our dojo is to throw (almost exclusively, apart from randori) onto crash-mats, and spend a goodly amount of time on newaza. Purists will decry this...put you know what? Getting thrown onto tatame fucking sucks....and if something sucks/hurts/causes fear, people aren't going to come back.

Last night we had 10 in the adult beginners class and 12 in the adult seniors (we run seperate adult and kids classes). Whilst numbers fluctuate, I think that's pretty outstanding for such a niche activity in this country (Australia); I think it really speaks well to making things just accessible enough to the average man and charging a respectable fee.

To that end, my instructor runs classes 6 days a week....and I am absolutely happy to pay $80/month to support him. I know which classes to go to if I want an asskicking, and which classes to go to for funsies. (Well, except last night, where both classes were an asskicking. After 2.5hrs, I limped off the mat...and was reminded that I'm now 36, not 18)

There's a lot more I could/want to say about this...stuff about self development and what that means...but I really am meant to be working :)


7/16/12 11:37 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Outkaster
48 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 1923
I think some Martial Art’s instructors don’t know how to deal with different types of students. Your average Joe off the street will look at taking throws with some trepidation as noted in some of the above posts. Again it comes down to being able to accommodate people on all different levels. It’s a hard thing to do but might be a good think to help Judo increase membership.
7/17/12 6:42 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
judom
120 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/31/05
Posts: 2148
Speaking of marketing I came across this web site:

http://evolve-mma.com/

Just Amazing ! Look at how professional this looks. I bet very few judo clubs have such kind of web site.

That is definitely an issue.

Its funny, the other day I found out that down the block from me, 2 former Olympic Judoka are coaching in the club. Nobody even knows...its crazy.

Judo frowns upon marketing, but unless something is done, we will lose more adults to these other marketing-heavy schemes.
7/17/12 9:33 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Mr Mike from NC
1 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/14/07
Posts: 466
Here is the website for the Judo school I attend in North Carolina. It seems modern and, professional. What do you think?

http://www.bushidojudoschool.com/

My Sensei has started a skateboard team. He takes the team to different skate parks and, they wear a team t-shirt with the team and, school information. The skaters follow a code of conduct in public and, in school, and, it's brought in their friends and, skaters. Only a few stay with Judo, though.
7/17/12 10:12 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
OCJudoTrngCtr
44 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/12/07
Posts: 418
 The Evolve MMA website is very good.  One of the most basic elements that every martial arts business should have is on the front page.  Yet, nearly every judo school does not have it  (including OCJTC) which is a "call to action".    In the red box on the left hand side, you will see a complimentary free lesson offered.

Here are some examples from some fitness/martial arts chains.

24 Hour Fitness call to action on right side.  www.24hourfitness.com/non_member_home.html

LA Boxing call to action on right side.  laboxing.com/

Tiger Schulmann call to action on right side.  www.tsk.com/

A website is a way to make them aware of your business and to generate initial interest.  You still need to get them in the door. For that, a person who is excellent on the phones is essential to a martial arts business.
7/17/12 10:40 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
OCJudoTrngCtr
44 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 07/19/12 10:07 PM
Member Since: 10/12/07
Posts: 419
 MMFNC,

I need to thank you for pointing out that article from the French judoka.  I read it a day or two after you pointed it out, but was working on trying to find supporting data for some ancedotal evidence he offered in his article. I wasn't able to find any, but his experience is very similar to what we in So Cal have seen develop over the last 20 years.

I was very surprised to find out that it is his belief that French Judo is very much lacking in curriculum for adults who are not elite, and that it is run very similar to how children's programs are run.  It was always my impression that France was very advanced in their teaching methods.

But what caught my attention was this statement taken from the link :

www.judo-voj.com/contents/reiho.html

"For some years now, new sports such the Brazilian ju-jutsu and free fighting have succeeded in attracting more and more young adults, and their numbers will soon (or perhaps already are) comparable to the population of adult judo practitioners in France."

I highly doubt that BJJ has caught up to judo among young adults in France.  I don't know where to find the numbers or if they even exist.  The only thing that I could do was compare the terms BJJ, Jiu-Jitsu to Judo for France, and the news references are not even close.  BJJ does not even register.

That said, I know from competition results and formation of tournaments that BJJ is growing in France and Europe, and most likely at a much higher rate than judo in France where growth is fairly stagnant. But growth rate is an unfair comparison considering that the judo market in France is very mature.

The story becomes quite different for MMA.  There are more references to mixed martial arts, mma than judo at most periods during the last 4 years......and the disparity is growing.

The French judoka's complaint is eerily similar to many of the same complaints I've heard about judo.

1) Programs neglect needs of adult beginners.

2) High dropout rates for adults (He claims new black belt dropout rate is 50% per year in France!)

3) Lack of training partners

4) Competition from other martial arts (MMA and BJJ are cited) pressuring the numbers and becoming more popular.

He does not offer any evidence for his statements, but I don't think it matters much.  Perception has a way of turning into reality,  and this is the perception that a young French judoka has.  The question is "how many other young French judokas feel the same way?"   I don't know the answer to that, but I bet we find out over the next decade.



  
7/19/12 2:36 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
judom
120 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/31/05
Posts: 2150
I've trained all over Europe, England, Russia and basically, my experience with what people do with adult beginners is mostly bad:

1. There is definitely not special programs for beginners -- sure there are classes for adults before brown belt, but the instruction there is so-so. Mostly the mindset is: let me show them something, let them randori and go to compete so to see who is interested to get to black belt.

2. There is absolutely no explicit effort to attract or market Judo to the adult beginner populations. Its ridiculous ! Some clubs get many many beginners just because they are held in central locations and the coaches are known, but generally, there is no effort.

Judo clubs are not making the effort to market the club to beginners and even to women. Part of the problem is that nobody is paid to do it. Most coaches are volunteers with day jobs !

At the same time, the population that BJJ and grappling attract are generally not elite athletes: they are hobbyist that are really VERY VERY far from elite athletes. And so they have the opposite problem: too many hobbyist and not enough (or any) top level serious competitors. In fact, these sports to a degree rely on others like Judo / Wrestling to provide them with quality competitors. Their association with MMA actually does not help them in many cases.
7/19/12 3:54 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
m.g
36 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 7234
Judom interesting post.

You make some good points although I have issues with the term "elite" athlete. I tend not to like the word "elite" athlete for those who happen to compete regularly.

Athletes come in at all different levels and elite usually means top or close to the top level.


Just because a person competes doesn't necessarily mean they are elite level, even if they compete regularly. Heck, I think most athletes who compete aren't elite level athletes. This is just as true in judo as it is in any other competitive sport.

Do alot of Judokas, worldwide, compete? Yes, of course. Does this mean judokas who compete are automatically elite athletes? absolutely not. Even if judoka competed regularly and against high level competition doesn't mean he or she is an elite athlete (unless he or she regularly beats elite level athletes).

Training and competition doesn't make one an elite athlete. If that were the case then anyone who trained hard and compete would be label as such. An excellent competitiom record (wins) against high level competition is what makes an athlete elite.
7/19/12 5:06 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
judom
120 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/31/05
Posts: 2156
m.g.,

I think we agree on the term 'elite' and I meant it in that sense of the top competitors.

anyway, back to the point: Judo needs to re-think how it markets itself to the beginner / hobbyist adult population.

For instance, Judo is wonderful for getting in shape and learning something interesting. Great for women and kids. Of course, most Judo coaches could care less if you tell them you are there to lose weight and get in shape. Inside they are mostly thinking: "oh, not again, another clueless beginner who is not serious".
7/19/12 10:57 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Mr Mike from NC
1 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/14/07
Posts: 468
"Of course, most Judo coaches could care less if you tell them you are there to lose weight and get in shape. Inside they are mostly thinking: "oh, not again, another clueless beginner who is not serious".

That's probably why American Judo is so small.
From reading Kano and, others, Judo has a lot going for it. Kano said it was physical education and, moral/character development. One may only want to get in shape and, lose weight, but stick with it for a few years and, you'll be surprised by what happens to you physically and mentally. The competitive coaches can coach with the competition team, while others can deal with the adults in the recreation class. One could probably make some good extra money, or even teach full time if they started a good adult program that focused on those things.
7/19/12 11:01 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
OCJudoTrngCtr
44 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/12/07
Posts: 420
 "For instance, Judo is wonderful for getting in shape and learning something interesting. Great for women and kids. Of course, most Judo coaches could care less if you tell them you are there to lose weight and get in shape."

That is so true, and it is missing one of the greatest opportunities we have.

Childhood obesity and Adult obesity rates are simply off the charts in the United States, and I would imagine they are greatly increasing around the world as processed foods become a bigger part of the daily diet.

I want to refer again, to a website that I linked to above.  It's for Tiger Schulmann's Mixed Martial Arts.

www.tsk.com/

Now for those who might not be aware of Tiger Schulmann, he was a karate champion and started his chain of karate schools many, many years ago.  He saw the writing on the wall, and spent a lot of money rebranding his business  moving away from karate to MMA/Kickboxing.  The man knows the martial arts business.

Now click on the  Adults Program

www.tsk.com/site/programs/adults.php

Now remember he has re-branded from Karate to MMA.  Yet, what does he highlight for Adults?  Every picture is a body transformation with amount of weight lost.  If you look how the page is written, you will see a priority in his message.

1) Weight Loss--Physical Conditioning
2) Self Defense
3) Stress Relief

And of course the call to action at the end to call now for a consultation.

You could do the same for his Kid's Program and other's as well.  He doesn't sell the art.  He sells the results that people want. 



7/20/12 12:59 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Mr Mike from NC
1 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/14/07
Posts: 469
The folks who started this came to the Greatest Judo Camp in Charlotte this year and, taught a course called "Recreational Judo." I didn't attend the camp, or hear anything about their course.

http://jiudo.com/

Total Mind and Body Work out
Heard this before
This time it's for real
Juido™
A complete physical training system

Combines the benefits of yoga, palates, weight training, and aerobics
with the mental awareness achieved by martial arts training into one system.

Over the past five years Judio™ has proven itself capable of achieving
amazing results in physical education, personal defense,
and general exercise programs in a wide variety of locations.
7/20/12 1:11 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Mr Mike from NC
1 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/14/07
Posts: 470
From the photos on their website, it looks like they do randori without throwing. It looks like a clever way to get people into Judo. Start them off safely and, build up their fitness, improve their balance, teach them how to be relaxed and, move at the same time, breath properly and, understand how to get someone off balance and, how to fit in for a throw. There was a photo of "amazing results" showing a 80lb youth lifting a 208lb man! That can build confidence and, give someone a good understanding of how to throw someone in a safe environment. Perhaps more people would get into Judo with an introduction like that?
7/22/12 10:46 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
judom
120 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 07/22/12 10:49 AM
Member Since: 10/31/05
Posts: 2162
My conclusion out of this is that Judo needs:

-- a better concept on how to approach the adult segment. This likely needs coaches that take Judo as a full time business. It may also mean targeting the curriculum to 'less throwing', more ground work, and medium randori.

-- The Judo community needs to stop (secretly) looking down on people who make money with Judo. I have a friend who built a large judo business and the Judo federation hated him on for years, for 'violating the principles of Judo' and making money.

I should note here that my friend, even though he makes decent $$$, is STILL scarred from the Judo mindset: he told me the other day, he says: I am always trying to stay above certain $$$ amount and UNDER certain $$$ amount as to not ABUSE Judo. He too, like the rest, is brainwashed and does not charge too much money. And the guy is Olympic level Judo, just super awesome coach. He charges ridiculously low amounts ! I told him its ridiculous what he is doing, but he is careful not to 'hurt Judo'. Even when I stop by to train there I buy stuff for the club because he does not take $$$ from me. Its crazy, cause he has family, etc, but the Judo mindset of NOT making money is just INSANE and deeply propagated into our thinking.

I can confirm the same for me: In the USA, I was asked MANY times to give private Judo lessons in my BJJ visits and I always refused. This is such a strange concept for me, it felt like betraying Judo and teaching it to 'external people' for $$$...but later I thought I should have :)

-- much better marketing, take a leaf of the BJJ / grappling / MMA books on how to market better: better web sites, few 'programs' targeting various segments of the population.

In many places Judo is still doing great, largely because it is an Olympic sport so the government funding in some places is quite big. That said, the above changes would make Judo more popular.

Last month I was talking to a mother who had just given birth and she wanted to lose weight. I told her how wonderful Judo would be for her, that it has a great 'utility' ratio: for short time, you can get a lot of good effects (learning stuff, get in shape, never boring, etc) and she was super excited to try it. She's been doing it now for few weeks and is loving it. What is great, is she has a son who is 6, and also signed him up, who in turn brought 2 more kids to train there last week.

So there you have it: attracting the adult population is key. 
7/22/12 10:52 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
judom
120 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/31/05
Posts: 2163
I also have to say, many Olympic coaches are huge morons. They don't care shit about anyone but those who compete for Olympic medals because those will bring them recognition and $$$.

One time even I heard a coach say to an adult beginner: what are you doing here even, you can hardly walk on the tatami, you want to learn Judo, first learn how to walk or something.
7/22/12 8:47 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Mr Mike from NC
1 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/14/07
Posts: 472
What would all those folks do if they didn't have the government or wealthy sponsors to back them financially? Tatami mats, spring floors, locker room facilities, extra uniforms, not to mention insurance, all cost money.
How would a full time Judo instructor/coach make enough to live on and, provide for his old age if he couldn't make a living teaching Judo?

7/22/12 8:53 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Mr Mike from NC
1 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/14/07
Posts: 473
So there is a focus on making money in Judo, but only at the top competitive level? It's like wrestling in the US. The careers of most wrestlers ends when they graduate high school. Only those who compete well move on. With many American Universities dropping wrestling, even fewer wrestlers will move beyond high school.

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.