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HolyGround >> alternative worship at my church


8/3/12 11:00 PM
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Ali
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Ugly Joe - Just goes to enforce what people already say; Liberation Theology is pseudo-Christian Atheism.


Which people say that? Can you provide a reference? A link? I've not heard that. On the surface it sounds absurd. I'd be curious to know if it is.
8/4/12 12:12 AM
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Ridgeback
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 As an aside, here is a really good description of liberation theology and also some explanation as to why it is officially rejected by the Catholic church.  The NewAdvent site has always been a good source for any number of subjects related to theology and Christian history and usually does a pretty good job of remaining even handed in its treatment of subjects:

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_df84lt.htm 
8/4/12 10:51 AM
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reverend john
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I have read a lot of both the accusations against liberation theology, and the answers to those accusations, and I must say, I think the church is being stupid.

two of the main ones being the elevation of orthopraxy above orthodoxy. This is simply not true, it would be true to say they raise them to equal levels but not one above the other. And they also freely admit that they support and inform one another.

The second is they raise the importance of Jesus human nature above his deity. No, they actually bring the importance of Jesus human nature to the fore, as it is the part of the incarnation that we can follow, and are called to follow.

rev
9/1/12 8:31 AM
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phydeau
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I think the discussion has moved on from this, but let's go back to the idea of paterning your "worship service" for the benifit of the non-christians in the audiance.

IMO it's a question of intent. Is the service a worship service, or is it an evangalistic outreach service? Then you patern the service toward the group you are trying to benifit.

Look at the Willow Creek model - Their beliver's worship service is mid-week. On Sunday mornings all aspects of their services are done with the intent to present the gospel to non-christians.
9/1/12 11:51 AM
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reverend john
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what I am saying is that if you are creative it can be one thing for one person and another for someone else. The haiku made me think about what was going on in my life, and express great thankfulness towards God, to rejoice in His creation, and to stand in awe of His nearness and love. For the atheist in the group it was a chance to reflect on life, on the creation (which the bible says holds the truth of the gospel in it), to be thankful of things (which is a good practice regardless of belief). What we try to do is be creative so that people can experience worship, true, deep Christian worship (which I actually do not get from singing "worship" songs) and others can not feel alienated.

But our intent isn't to try and convert people, our intent is to invite people to walk with us, to practice the kingdom. I believe real conversion is always done by the Spirit.

rev
9/1/12 1:28 PM
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gord96
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But our intent isn't to try and convert people, our intent is to invite people to walk with us, to practice the kingdom.


Amen to that. :)
9/7/12 10:58 AM
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Cappytime
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reverend john -  so we have two to four atheists that are there every week, which makes certain things akward.  Not wanting to be unsympathetic we have tried to incorporate ways of worship that allow them to participate.  This last monday we wrote haiku.  Read the blog, tell me how I am just trying to be cool and will most likely go to hell

which is fine all my friends will be there, we will party and have a bbq

:)

reverendjohn.blogspot.com/2012/05/alternative-to-singing-songs-for.html

rev
Just asking the obvious question. Why are atheists regularly attending church? Phone Post
9/7/12 11:01 AM
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Cappytime
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PastorJosh -
reverend john - I wouldn't go that far, but it sure seems that way. It is amazing how the very thing Jesus stood against, becomes exactly what we create in His name. The current of the world is strong, we must do all we can just to stand firm against it. I think Paul talks about it a bit in Ephesians :) in that book I don't understand or read :)

rev
No, you're wrong. Again. You keep trying to make the point that you're the believer in Christ and can clearly communicate his message but every. single. one. of your posts is absolutely filled to the brim of biblical distortions. Are you kidding me? Who do you think you're pulling the wool over? Have you never read Isaiah? Malachi? Have you never read Jeremiah about unacceptable worship? I hate to burst this universalist bubble but there IS worship that God hates. And it's clearly laid out in Scripture. Clearly. Clearly. Clearly. You're a wolf in sheep's clothing and you always will be. You can call that judging if you want but the Bible calls it doctrine. Phone Post
I believe it's called the Old Testament and he was instructing the Jewish people. Phone Post
9/7/12 12:32 PM
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reverend john
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Cappytime - 
reverend john -  so we have two to four atheists that are there every week, which makes certain things akward.  Not wanting to be unsympathetic we have tried to incorporate ways of worship that allow them to participate.  This last monday we wrote haiku.  Read the blog, tell me how I am just trying to be cool and will most likely go to hell

which is fine all my friends will be there, we will party and have a bbq

:)

reverendjohn.blogspot.com/2012/05/alternative-to-singing-songs-for.html

rev
Just asking the obvious question. Why are atheists regularly attending church? Phone Post

Three reasons:

1. they appreciate diversity

2. they are interested in the radical revolutionary teachings of Jesus that include love for enemies, non violence, radical association with and care for the poor and marginalized

3. they enjoy being part of a group trying to legitimately make a difference in their own sphere of influence

To the extent we don't make them feel unwelcome, or second class, they will continue.

rev
9/7/12 1:44 PM
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Cappytime
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reverend john -
Cappytime - 
reverend john -  so we have two to four atheists that are there every week, which makes certain things akward.  Not wanting to be unsympathetic we have tried to incorporate ways of worship that allow them to participate.  This last monday we wrote haiku.  Read the blog, tell me how I am just trying to be cool and will most likely go to hell

which is fine all my friends will be there, we will party and have a bbq

:)

reverendjohn.blogspot.com/2012/05/alternative-to-singing-songs-for.html

rev
Just asking the obvious question. Why are atheists regularly attending church? Phone Post

Three reasons:

1. they appreciate diversity

2. they are interested in the radical revolutionary teachings of Jesus that include love for enemies, non violence, radical association with and care for the poor and marginalized

3. they enjoy being part of a group trying to legitimately make a difference in their own sphere of influence

To the extent we don't make them feel unwelcome, or second class, they will continue.

rev
Thank you for answering my question. Number 2 is what I wish more churches would push instead of a borderline hateful political message. Phone Post
11/4/12 11:36 AM
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YoungGunABKJ
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rev brother your a good man and a man of good. and yes we are told to minster to the drunks and hookers.

i myself have a friend who is an athiest, all have muslim and hindu friends. and i respect them all and dont cram stuff down thier throats.

but i strongly disagree with your church on doing stuff just for the athiest. there could be a msg that someone needed to hear that day but did not because you had to make the athiest happy.

seems to me a seed is planted with those athiest and in order to grow they dont need hakiu or anything like that.

they need the word of God, that simple. if they dont like that then they do not belong there. again no problem with them attending, BIG HUGE problem for catering to them and skipping the words of out Lord.
11/4/12 3:44 PM
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YoungGunABKJ
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also i should mention, that yes jesus did walk and talk to the sinners but he did not waver in his conviction to please.

Gods love and work never changes, and sometimes you have to find a diff way to get the msg out

but to compromise for just them, your taking away.

do not agree with rev
11/4/12 3:46 PM
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YoungGunABKJ
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and rev i read a few more of what you was writin. and it is beautiful but so is lucifer.

you only wrote the hakius or whatever to please those athiest, it wasnt in your heart and that is what makes it wrong
11/4/12 3:47 PM
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YoungGunABKJ
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evil wins when good men and women stand by and do nothing.
11/4/12 11:12 PM
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reverend john
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well perhaps we have a huge difference in the definition of church. And also what the purpose of a meeting is. For the Christians the haikus were in fact worship, and were shared, worshipfully showing atheists of our worship. I wasn't trying to please the atheists but to encourage and include them. I suppose the weekly reading of scripture isn't something they should be exposed to?

And if you think I do nothing, you truly are intentionally being blind

rev
11/10/12 8:05 AM
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thedogofdogs
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have you had any Lucerferians at your meetings?

Would love to see the athiests reaction to that...lol

11/15/12 9:33 PM
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Ogami Itto
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Have you asked the atheists what they might like to do? Maybe they just like to sit there and think "for the Christians it is ____ but for me it is ____."
11/16/12 11:14 AM
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reverend john
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Yes we have talked to them, they enjoy being involved, and appreciate that we make things applicable.

The two things we do that just will not translate very well is communion, and prayer. We understand that makes them uncomfortable, but they understand its part of our worship and accept that. For us we believe that walking with them as they begin to walk out the teachings of Jesus, we can call them to greater and greater discipleship. The idea that you have to have some profound worship experience at your gathering is silly. Jesus said himself, when you pray, go into your closet. There is no reason that our community must always act in ways that alienate others when we gather.

rev
11/17/12 12:36 AM
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YoungGunABKJ
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rev i dont believe you are doing nothing and if it came off that way it was not my intetions.

Jesus said, i will make you fishers of men.

when you fish you have to sometimes switch bait to get the fish to nibble [ reaching out in diffrent ways such as your haiku, this could be done a a starbucks, park, or something like that] well once they taste it and like it they bite, this is when you have to reel them in. you gotta reel hard sometimes and sometimes you gotta let them run and tire down before you can land them[ your actions outside of church and what not. i can go into this more if you want, like the line your line, reel and rod your using to land them] and when you land them they have to be prepared [ being shown how to worship and praise our king Jesus christ. again can go itno more, like prayer, music, etc]

now i guess this si where we differ. God speaks to me on this as once they are landed and ready to be prepared we do not prepare them for how others like it, we prepare it how God wants it. if it isnt prepared right its gonna taste bad not be finished and thrown out.

brother i respect and love ya and i hope what God wrote through me helps but either way we are still brothers.

and i see where you thought i meant you do nothing,lol the sitting by part. guess i need to pray on that and let him tell me how to explain that better.

Go with GOd and have a blessed day.

bruce

non timebo mala
11/19/12 2:31 PM
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reverend john
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our " of worship, is not scriptural. There is no " of worship that is scriptural. However... if I were to pick up somethings of scripture that should be part of our gatherings I would note that my "worship" time, is much more biblical than that of the "normal" church. In my church when we share scripture all of us speak, all the gift in the body are shared, not just the music and teaching gift. Everybody is deemed to be a part of the discussion, and not just that, but to wrestle with what it means in their own life. And then we all try to live out what we learn and encourage one another on how we did that.

We meet in small groups in homes, just like the church in biblical times did.

We eat together, at the shared table. Like the early church did.

And we bind and loose together, again which we are taught to do by CHrist in the word.

So you may think there is a certain way of doing church, but if there is it is much closer to what I do than what is normally done. And when it comes to discipleship, we must look to Jesus as our example, or Paul if you feel better. Disciples are not made at services, disciples are made by a long apprenticeship walking day in and day out with others further along THE WAY.

rev
11/19/12 2:37 PM
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YoungGunABKJ
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rev bro im not wanting to start a fight
or see who does what better, just stating my thoughts on it

in the end you answer for you and i answer for me so until then lets all be loving family. k :)

and ya know heard a good sermon last week, about living at teh foot of the cross and they spoke of why its not good to stay at the foot.. how many times your heard that one. you ask someone how they are and they reply " just livining at the foot of the cross"

i dont wanna be at the foot of the cross, my lord aint there he got down and went about. so i put my boots to the ground and i go about serving him.
11/19/12 6:30 PM
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zealot66
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This whole thread is one of my main trigger points about Christians and church. I don't know how many times I have heard, my church does things more biblical, we follow the bible more closely. REALLLLLLLLLLLY??????? You mean Paul sang Amazing Grace and The Old Rugged Cross? You mean that at the end of the sermon everyone bowed their heads and closed their eyes and the Pastor asked for people to raise their hands if they wanted to 'accept Jesus into their hearts' or come down for prayer? 

NOOOOTTTTT. This whole way of church today in America is American evangelical thought and experiments. You ever heard of the old sawdust road? IE, coming down the aisle to accept Jesus as your saviour and into your heart. Try the early 20th century for the first time you hear about that? 

People are so ignorant about the history of christianity and especially Americans who believe they are 'more biblical' the fact is they are following recent tradition, not the bible. Christian Memes have been around and may be one of the first major social groups to spread memes to a large degree.

Get over yourselves and your nose in history books and quit reading 'your best life now' or whatever other pop christian culture book out there. Christians like to think they are intellectually ahead of everyone else. They think they know more than 'scientists' or Richard Dawkins because they read the newest aplogetic book. I am disgusted. 

11/19/12 9:18 PM
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YoungGunABKJ
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i never once said church saves or religion

i actually dont care much for either one because of what you stated.

its my walk with jesus that matters, bottom line.

and you must not have got what i was saying. tradition is a problem if we allow it to be.

ex

inner city youth comes to know christ. now he is a kid you grew up listening to rap. now is he gonna get anything from the old rugged cross [which when it was first introduced was considered to radical] no he wont. but christian rap he will.

Gods msg never changes, what he wants done never changes. but how it is taught can be. to get them to bite you can use diff baits but i still stand by once you land them they need to be prepared teh way God wants them to be.
11/19/12 10:07 PM
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zealot66
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Not sure if you are talking to me. I was responding to the overall thread and what is biblical worship. Everyone thinks they 'get it'. Blah ! People need to pick up a history book and think critically. Chistians need to understand their past before they pontificate on the present 'biblicalness' of their group. Nothing personal. 

I am in a personal email discussion with my first girlfriend who went on to marry an American, she is Australian , and serve as a missionary in thailand for 14 years. Delving into some very deep subjects that irritate me by avoidance.

11/20/12 8:58 AM
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Ogami Itto
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reverend john - Yes we have talked to them, they enjoy being involved, and appreciate that we make things applicable.

The two things we do that just will not translate very well is communion, and prayer. We understand that makes them uncomfortable, but they understand its part of our worship and accept that. For us we believe that walking with them as they begin to walk out the teachings of Jesus, we can call them to greater and greater discipleship. The idea that you have to have some profound worship experience at your gathering is silly. Jesus said himself, when you pray, go into your closet. There is no reason that our community must always act in ways that alienate others when we gather.

rev

You know what, this is pretty amazing and I applaud what you're doing. Have you by chance ever broke bread with Unitarians and borrowed any of their traditions?

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