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S&C UnderGround >> Squat - Whats the point of the powerlifting style?


5/31/12 7:14 PM
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HULC
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In a powerlift style squat you jam your legs out to the side in order to recruit your adductors to the movement, and therefore lift more weight. In powerlifting this makes sense, because the ultimate goal is to lift as much as possible. But for sporting applications, or bodybuilding, what's the point of doing squats this way?

In most athletic positions - sprinting, standing up against resistance, pushing an opponent, jumping, throwing something, etc - your legs are much more directly underneath you and the adductors play little role, it's mainly quad, glute, and hamstring strength. In fact the position is much closer to a traditional bodybuilding style squat.

If that's the case, then building strength/muscle for athletic reasons, then bodybuilding style squats are the better choice.
5/31/12 9:53 PM
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nowaydo
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Ask Louie!
6/1/12 8:17 AM
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HULC
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Eesh, i'm not watching a 10 minute video to sift through if there is anything in there that is applicable to this thread. Can you summarise any relevant points?
6/1/12 9:12 AM
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mkou
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Do you mean a sumo style squat? I squat low bar, the way Rippetoe teaches. I've always just thought that it enables better activation of posterior chain and if I increase the weight --> more muscle too.
6/1/12 9:37 AM
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jeremy hamilton
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HULC - In a powerlift style squat you jam your legs out to the side in order to recruit your adductors to the movement, and therefore lift more weight. In powerlifting this makes sense, because the ultimate goal is to lift as much as possible. But for sporting applications, or bodybuilding, what's the point of doing squats this way?

In most athletic positions - sprinting, standing up against resistance, pushing an opponent, jumping, throwing something, etc - your legs are much more directly underneath you and the adductors play little role, it's mainly quad, glute, and hamstring strength. In fact the position is much closer to a traditional bodybuilding style squat.

If that's the case, then building strength/muscle for athletic reasons, then bodybuilding style squats are the better choice.


Powerlifters don't use their hamstrings, glutes or quads?

They only use their adductors?

Where are you getting this information? It seems like your mind is made up anyway as you wont even watch a 10minute fucking video regarding the post you just made.
6/1/12 11:52 AM
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Leigh
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I think it makes little difference. Both will make you very strong and give similar results.

I think handling more weight is beneficial to strength athletes
6/1/12 12:00 PM
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None So Blind
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^^^ That sounds like what I bet Rippetoe's argument would be - his style (by his account) makes you capable of lifting the *most* weight, ergo it makes you the "strongest" you can be. Being stronger therefore is an advantage no matter what your sport is.

Granted, if you deadlift 600 pounds and your opponent does 580, then unless you're competing in actual powerlifting, that kind of difference really doesn't matter. In powerlifting, that 20 lb difference means you win; in football or baseball or MMA or what have you, that seems like a really tiny factor overall...
6/1/12 12:09 PM
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Leigh
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I fully recognise that someone who deadlifts 580 may be stronger in a particular sport than a guy who pulls 600. However, I think the heavier weight contributes in other ways, like connective tissue, grip, midsection etc
6/1/12 3:14 PM
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ravenman2000
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Edited: 06/01/12 3:14 PM
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 That's a great video!  Really nicely addresses OP's question, and things I've wondered about regarding application of PL vs OL squat stance to sport training.  Makes me want to start getting some box squat work in.
 
Hint for those who haven't watched it:  the PL stance is beneficial in more ways than just the additional load it allows.
6/1/12 3:18 PM
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Ninjaworm7555
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OP, are you serious or just retarded? Almost all of your squatting power comes from the hips, hamstrings and ass. The best way to utilize these groups is to open up your stance and get your ass and hips back and out. Phone Post
6/1/12 3:49 PM
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ravenman2000
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Some interesting familiar toes-out and wide stances in these photos I found, starting with a Rampage slam:








Not saying OL squats and narrow deadlift stanced don't also have their applications, but clearly so do normal and wide PL squats and sumo deadlifts.
6/1/12 8:26 PM
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nowaydo
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Awesome pics!
6/2/12 3:17 AM
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Squatdog
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Powerlifting-style squats are specifically geared towards increasing your squat weight in a competition setting by shortening the range of motion and maximising the effect of the various powerlifting paraphernalia. It essentially turns the movement into a quasi-Good Morning.

Highbar squats are better for pure physique development and arguably better for developing sports-specific functional strength, because the bar is held in a natural vertical alignment and minimises spinal flexion.

Not saying OL squats and narrow deadlift stanced don't also have their applications, but clearly so do normal and wide PL squats and sumo deadlifts.


Uhhhhhhhh....I highbar squat with a wide stance, with no belt or wraps and in bare feet.
6/2/12 1:53 PM
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ravenman2000
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Edited: 06/02/12 1:53 PM
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Squatdog -
Not saying OL squats and narrow deadlift stanced don't also have their applications, but clearly so do normal and wide PL squats and sumo deadlifts.


Uhhhhhhhh....I highbar squat with a wide stance, with no belt or wraps and in bare feet.
That's great.  Not seeing the relevance to my post, though; what is the "Uhhhhhhh..." about?  Sounds like you use a typical PL squat.  I mentioned both OL and PL styles in my post.  Unless you are saying that you do olympic lifting with a wide stance, which would indeed be unusual.  You know lots of powerlifters use the high-bar position on the traps, even with a wide (compared to OL) stance, right? 
6/2/12 10:47 PM
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Squatdog
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That's great. Not seeing the relevance to my post, though; what is the "Uhhhhhhh..." about? Sounds like you use a typical PL squat. Unless you are saying that you do olympic lifting with a wide stance, which would indeed be unusual. You know lots of powerlifters use the high-bar position on the traps, even with a wide (compared to OL) stance, right?


I've personally never seen male powerlifter use a highbar squat in competition.

How the fuck can I be using a 'powerlifter' squat, when the bar is high on my shoulders and I even come from an Olympic Lifting background?

6/3/12 2:30 AM
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ravenman2000
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I still don't see the relevance of what you said to my post that both OL and PL squats have their place, and both are positions that have sport applications.  Bar on or below traps aside, I demonstrated in the photos that a wide stance does indeed have a place, it's not all narrow-stance position in sport.
6/3/12 10:56 AM
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Dogmeat 1
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personally I feel it's kind of pointless to choose exercises based on whether you think they replicate sport specific movements or not. You practice throws and takedowns to improve technique and you do weight lifting to improve your overall strength. You will get good crossover from the weight room as long as your are improving your strength in areas that are relevant to your particular sport.

Both styles of squats have good arguments for them. Personally I prefer narrower stance high bar squats myself but honestly speaking if you dedicate the same amount of time and effort to doing either then I doubt you will see much difference in your end results. Both will make you stronger and unless you are planning to compete in Olympic or power lifting then it probably won't make too much difference for you.
6/3/12 8:41 PM
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HULC
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Ninjaworm7555 - OP, are you serious or just retarded?


Go away, adults are talking.
6/3/12 8:46 PM
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HULC
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jeremy hamilton - 
HULC - In a powerlift style squat you jam your legs out to the side in order to recruit your adductors to the movement, and therefore lift more weight. In powerlifting this makes sense, because the ultimate goal is to lift as much as possible. But for sporting applications, or bodybuilding, what's the point of doing squats this way?

In most athletic positions - sprinting, standing up against resistance, pushing an opponent, jumping, throwing something, etc - your legs are much more directly underneath you and the adductors play little role, it's mainly quad, glute, and hamstring strength. In fact the position is much closer to a traditional bodybuilding style squat.

If that's the case, then building strength/muscle for athletic reasons, then bodybuilding style squats are the better choice.


Powerlifters don't use their hamstrings, glutes or quads?

They only use their adductors?

Where are you getting this information? It seems like your mind is made up anyway as you wont even watch a 10minute fucking video regarding the post you just made.


No not only their adductors, all squatting styles use the same muscles, they just vary where they put the emphasis. Powerlifting style shifts the emphasis onto a style of squatting that is rarely used athletically, and therefore shifts any adaptations towards stance that is rarely used, and muscles that are less often used in athletic endeavours.

As a rule, i don't watch videos that people post without comment.
6/3/12 8:56 PM
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HULC
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Leigh - I fully recognise that someone who deadlifts 580 may be stronger in a particular sport than a guy who pulls 600. However, I think the heavier weight contributes in other ways, like connective tissue, grip, midsection etc


Well the discussion is about squats rather than deadlifts.

But if jumping, standing up against resistance, pushing opponents, etc, involve your lower body muscles in a certain way, then a move that trains those muscles in a similar way will probably give the best value for money as far as training goes. So training to maximise your ability to squat with a wide stance would be less useful than spending time accustoming your body to squatting in a way you will most likely be using it.
6/3/12 8:59 PM
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HULC
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ravenman2000 - I still don't see the relevance of what you said to my post that both OL and PL squats have their place, and both are positions that have sport applications.  Bar on or below traps aside, I demonstrated in the photos that a wide stance does indeed have a place, it's not all narrow-stance position in sport.


I think all of the photos you posted show weights (ie people) being lifted in a deadlift style manner. If you want to lift something from your feet, then a deadlift is more applicable than any style of squatting.
6/3/12 9:06 PM
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HULC
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Dogmeat 1 - personally I feel it's kind of pointless to choose exercises based on whether you think they replicate sport specific movements or not. You practice throws and takedowns to improve technique and you do weight lifting to improve your overall strength. You will get good crossover from the weight room as long as your are improving your strength in areas that are relevant to your particular sport.

Both styles of squats have good arguments for them. Personally I prefer narrower stance high bar squats myself but honestly speaking if you dedicate the same amount of time and effort to doing either then I doubt you will see much difference in your end results. Both will make you stronger and unless you are planning to compete in Olympic or power lifting then it probably won't make too much difference for you.


In general i agree with what you're saying. But my point was, unless you are competing in power lifting, i can't see any athletic benefit to squatting in the powerlifting style. The power lifting style is designed (ignoring the gear question) to spread the loads across as many muscle groups as possible, thus allowing you to lift the maximum weight.

In most endeavours your feet are roughly shoulder distance and either square or slightly staggered, so a move that trains the muscles (and gets the adaptations) within that area would give the best results, don't you think?
6/4/12 12:06 AM
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SidRon
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It really sucks that you have to pick one way to squat and then only squat that way for the rest of your life. If only you were able to periodically change squat variations so that you could take advantage of the benefits that each one might have to offer.
6/4/12 12:22 AM
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Squatdog
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I think all of the photos you posted show weights (ie people) being lifted in a deadlift style manner. If you want to lift something from your feet, then a deadlift is more applicable than any style of squatting.


/facepalm

It really sucks that you have to pick one way to squat and then only squat that way for the rest of your life. If only you were able to periodically change squat variations so that you could take advantage of the benefits that each one might have to offer.


The only real advantage of a low bar squat is that you can lift more in a competition setting.
6/4/12 3:58 AM
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Leigh
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HULC -
Leigh - I fully recognise that someone who deadlifts 580 may be stronger in a particular sport than a guy who pulls 600. However, I think the heavier weight contributes in other ways, like connective tissue, grip, midsection etc


Well the discussion is about squats rather than deadlifts.

But if jumping, standing up against resistance, pushing opponents, etc, involve your lower body muscles in a certain way, then a move that trains those muscles in a similar way will probably give the best value for money as far as training goes. So training to maximise your ability to squat with a wide stance would be less useful than spending time accustoming your body to squatting in a way you will most likely be using it.
I was responding directly to a post that used dead lifting as an example. But it is obvious squatting could be substituted.

Jumping is jumping, pushing is pushing, not squatting. And they are usually done unilaterally. Trying to mimic your sport in the weight room is a flawed concept. I know Taku agrees with me on this. You are simply trying to build strength, nothing more.

Studies show that plyometrics aren't very useful for trampolining, due to different contact times. That is an example of how little carry over there is from training similar movements Phone Post

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