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6/2/12 2:42 PM
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BallaMMA
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As in people who have testified they died and seen Jesus. Then they come back to life. What do you believe Phone Post
6/2/12 3:37 PM
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BallaMMA
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NDES are near death experiences Phone Post
6/2/12 3:43 PM
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BallaMMA
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NDES are near death experiences Phone Post
6/3/12 11:45 AM
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BallaMMA
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I am sorry for your loss. My prayers are with you and your family Phone Post
6/4/12 12:40 PM
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reverend john
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there are as many experiences that would not be "christian in orientation" as well. I take them for what they are, but don't place much "faith" in them for my personal beliefs or walk.

rev
6/4/12 12:53 PM
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BallaMMA
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reverend john - there are as many experiences that would not be "christian in orientation" as well. I take them for what they are, but don't place much "faith" in them for my personal beliefs or walk.

rev
Can u explain Phone Post
6/4/12 1:36 PM
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reverend john
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there are many near death experiences from other cultures that fit into their religious beliefs, and others that show not afterlife, or just a peaceful light or whatever. So I don't doubt these things, but they don't make me believe anything any stronger.

If I Hindu had a near death experience and saw Krishna, would that influence your belief in Krishna?

rev
6/4/12 1:40 PM
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BallaMMA
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reverend john - there are many near death experiences from other cultures that fit into their religious beliefs, and others that show not afterlife, or just a peaceful light or whatever. So I don't doubt these things, but they don't make me believe anything any stronger.

If I Hindu had a near death experience and saw Krishna, would that influence your belief in Krishna?

rev
Oh ok I understand what you're getting to. Thank you for clarifying Phone Post
6/7/12 2:08 AM
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Lahi
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There were a couple good threads on this on the OG a while back. Gary Habermas has done some interesting research. His website has a debate between him and the guy who run Internet Ifidels (IIRC) on NDEs that was very good.

Until I started listening to Habermas I was a complete skeptic. Now I'm on the fence. What the Rev mentioned makes me doubt, its hard to make sense of people tending to encounter what they already believe. But then its also hard for me to write off the 'Evidentiary Cases' Habermas has investigated, where there is some pretty amazing testimony from medical staff.

It doesn't affect my faith either way, but it is interesting.
6/9/12 9:32 PM
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Grakman
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It makes more sense to me that people would have an NDE based on their beliefs than otherwise. But what to make of atheists who have NDE's and see Jesus or angels? Cultural conditioning? Or consider those people who see religious figures from outside their culture?

I am not skeptical at all about NDE. But that doesn't mean one has to accept every reported NDE as an actual NDE, either. Phone Post
6/17/12 11:10 AM
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zealot66
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 I think near death experiences are part of the dying process. Perhaps its God's gift to the dying. No panic, no pain, just an inborn experience of the brain shutting down permanently.
6/17/12 4:40 PM
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Lahi
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If anyone is interested, here is Gary Habermas debating Keith Augustine from Internet Infidels. Some good stuff on both sides:


http://www.garyhabermas.com/audio/ttmm_nde_pt1.mp3

http://www.garyhabermas.com/audio/ttmm_nde_pt2.mp3

http://www.garyhabermas.com/audio/ttmm_nde_pt3.mp3
9/12/12 8:16 AM
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Hops01
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I have been conducting sort of my own study on NDEs recently. To me, they are absolutely fascinating. My main purpose is to see if there are similarities between stories as it relates to what these people "see" while dying. I've read hundreds of stories, and more importantly, I've read doctors opinions of what is actually happening here. There is no good medical explanation that fits. Many times they are seeing things in detail from a vantage point that is...well, outside their bodies.
Just my opinion here, but I think that what they are seeing is real. I don't think it's a mind trick. I think death is an actual process, and these folks are in the initial stages of that process. I would like to think that some of the good, Biblically consistent things they see are in face, pure and Godly. What is a little scary to me are the "good" descriptions that do not fit scripture. I wonder if this is some type of deception. I know it sounds crazy, but the devil masquerades as an angel of light.
9/12/12 8:24 AM
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Hops01
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Rev,

I enjoy reading your posts. Do you know of any specific NDEs where people from other cultures have seen their main religious figure? (ie - Buddha, Mohammed, etc..)
I have not, but to candidly all my research focuses here domestically. The argument can be made that we are still a Christian nation, and this is all pre-conditioned info that skews the findings. As best I can tell, the dying folks see one or more of the following:
1. Nothing
2. Light - typically the light approaches them fast, and it is actually Christ himself.
3. Angels
4. Relatives, friends

Christ is the only specific figure that these people share in common.
9/12/12 10:59 AM
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JitsuGuy
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Hops01 - I have been conducting sort of my own study on NDEs recently. To me, they are absolutely fascinating. My main purpose is to see if there are similarities between stories as it relates to what these people "see" while dying. I've read hundreds of stories, and more importantly, I've read doctors opinions of what is actually happening here. There is no good medical explanation that fits. Many times they are seeing things in detail from a vantage point that is...well, outside their bodies.
Just my opinion here, but I think that what they are seeing is real. I don't think it's a mind trick. I think death is an actual process, and these folks are in the initial stages of that process. I would like to think that some of the good, Biblically consistent things they see are in face, pure and Godly. What is a little scary to me are the "good" descriptions that do not fit scripture. I wonder if this is some type of deception. I know it sounds crazy, but the devil masquerades as an angel of light.

Or maybe you should consider the opposite? That the Bible doesn't monopolize the truth and that it's only one explanation interpretation and not 100% accurate.
9/12/12 2:57 PM
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Hops01
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Jitsu Guy,

I re-read my post, and let me clarify a bit; from memory, there are often times "good" NDEs where there is some angelic being giving warm and fluffy big picture direction to the dying person. My question - given that this is a real experience - is "who" is the angelic being..? A bad guy masquerading as good..? I know it's a little out there, but that would have to be a consideration.
Conversely, I have read several accounts of Godless athiests "dying," going to a place of torment, and being rescued by what they themselves refer to, undoutedly, as Jesus Christ. It wasn't an unknown angelic being of sorts. I do not recall any incidents where the dying person was certain it was Christ, then went on to say that Jesus told them something that contradicts scripture.
9/12/12 5:27 PM
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Grakman
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From what I've read, almost all those who experience an NDE have greater faith in God, are kinder, more compassionate, with some dramatically changing their lives after the event, e.g. becoming ministers, founding charities, etc. It's hard for me to accept the idea that a 'bad guy' could masquerade as Jesus with concomitant good deeds following the experience.

Hops, why do you believe in the Bible instead of the documented reports of NDE's experienced by thousands of people? If you say because the Bible is inspired by God, how do you know that? Is there internal evidence in the Bible that makes you think so or external evidence that you can point to? Just curious, I'm not trying to debate or make a point, I'm interested in finding out what makes other think or believe the things they do.
9/13/12 6:44 AM
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Hops01
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Re-read all my posts above. I do in fact believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. I'm not sure why you think I don't believe the NDE experiences however. In general, I do. To your point, when you have thousands of documented cases from all walks of life, covering different timespans, that all share striking similarities......you have to consider that much of it may be accurate. All the knee-jerk surface level explanations simply don't fit if you study this stuff to any length. For me however, I get hung up on who and what they are seeing as part of this dying process. I tend to think that a Christ believing pastor who had a NDE and said he saw Christ.....actually saw Christ as weird as that sounds. Conversely, I read a story about a new age hippy lady who "died," and was greeted by some "angel". He, the angel, explained the big "life secret" as being the truth of reincarnation...blah, blah, blah.. So, for this lady and her NDE, she had some kind of fairly rosy experience that contradicted scripture. This experience seemed real, but deceptive in nature. I don't think the lady is being deceptive, however I sort of wonder whether what she was shown was deceptive in nature. Ironically, this lady described seeing a "city" far off in the distance (ie - she was well outside said city). This "city" theme is a constant in a lot of these, and it should be no secret you want to be INSIDE the city...not outside. This seemingly didn't register with this lady, even in the retelling of her story.

I know it's kind of a self-fullfilling deal here, but I separate these NDEs into two basic groups:
Those that follow scripture, and those that do not. Sometimes, there is just not enough detail to catagorize them into either group. Many times there is however.
9/13/12 6:52 AM
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Hops01
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The most interesting ones to me are the ones where someone with no religious upbringing goes to a hellish place in their NDE, cries out for help to God the Father, and are rescued by this freight-train of light that rapidly approaches them. Undoubtedly - and shockingly - this light turns out to be the Christ they have ingored and denied their entire life. Often times, what is shared with them is later validated in actual scripture once they are back in their own physical bodies. That is, what was shared with them in their NDE was - and is - right there in the Bible. They just were not aware of it in the least before they "died."
9/13/12 9:20 AM
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JitsuGuy
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The ones where a "hellish" place is believed to be experienced I dismiss - immediately.

Hell is a myth and if anything, a creation from the minds of men. It certainly isn't based on scripture. It's based on an interpretation of scripture and it's a horrible interpretation.

It also makes God a sadistic a-hole.
9/13/12 11:03 AM
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reverend john
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not true, Jesus tells the story of the rich man and lazarous. If we do not learn to be giving to each other in this life, how can there be a heaven in the next?

And Paul states very clearly that we will all be cleansed as of with fire so that what is good remains and what is not worthy is burnt away that we may be made like Christ

rev
9/13/12 11:19 AM
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JitsuGuy
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reverend john - not true, Jesus tells the story of the rich man and lazarous. If we do not learn to be giving to each other in this life, how can there be a heaven in the next?

And Paul states very clearly that we will all be cleansed as of with fire so that what is good remains and what is not worthy is burnt away that we may be made like Christ

rev

The parable of Lazerous and the rich man is a parable, nothing more. It's not a vision of an actual event. Or are you saying, they were literally standing in or on the bosum of Abraham? Sounds painful.

And a refining fire and being tortured are not one in the same.
9/13/12 12:47 PM
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reverend john
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of course, but metaphorically how do you explain coming to grips with your own selfishness? your own meaness, greed and self absorption? How do you give a visual picture of what it means to come face to face with that?

Have you ever listened to the torment of someone when they realize how their addiction, or selfishness has hurt people they love? Sounds like they are being tortured. If you are going to look at something metaphorically then you have to actually look. What someone sees in near death experience is not really happening, it is a response to something spiritual and mental.

rev
9/13/12 12:51 PM
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phydeau
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didn't read thread, but...

I'm a firm believer that you interprate your experiences in the light of God's Word rather then interprating God's Word in light of your (or other people's) experiences, near death or otherwise.
9/13/12 12:59 PM
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phydeau
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JitsuGuy - The ones where a "hellish" place is believed to be experienced I dismiss - immediately.

Hell is a myth and if anything, a creation from the minds of men. It certainly isn't based on scripture. It's based on an interpretation of scripture and it's a horrible interpretation.

It also makes God a sadistic a-hole.

Is God holy? Y/N

Is God just? Y/N

Is a just & holy God requiored to punish sin? Y/N

If you answer "No" to the first question, then God is unworthy of our worship.

If you answer "No" to either of the other questions, then Jesus died for no reason.

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