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9/13/12 1:51 PM
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gord96
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Edited: 11/11/12 9:40 PM
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......
9/13/12 2:01 PM
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JitsuGuy
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reverend john - of course, but metaphorically how do you explain coming to grips with your own selfishness? your own meaness, greed and self absorption? How do you give a visual picture of what it means to come face to face with that?

Have you ever listened to the torment of someone when they realize how their addiction, or selfishness has hurt people they love? Sounds like they are being tortured. If you are going to look at something metaphorically then you have to actually look. What someone sees in near death experience is not really happening, it is a response to something spiritual and mental.

rev

And I agree with that. =)
9/13/12 2:02 PM
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JitsuGuy
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phydeau - 
JitsuGuy - The ones where a "hellish" place is believed to be experienced I dismiss - immediately.

Hell is a myth and if anything, a creation from the minds of men. It certainly isn't based on scripture. It's based on an interpretation of scripture and it's a horrible interpretation.

It also makes God a sadistic a-hole.

Is God holy? Y/N

Is God just? Y/N

Is a just & holy God requiored to punish sin? Y/N

If you answer "No" to the first question, then God is unworthy of our worship.

If you answer "No" to either of the other questions, then Jesus died for no reason.

Wait, when did we conclude God existed? I must have missed that part.
9/13/12 5:12 PM
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Grakman
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hops,
I personally distrust the NDEs of pastors and other religious teachers more than those of a lay person because it seems to me the pastor will have a vested interest in relaying a 'doctrinally correct' NDE. It seems to me an NDE in which Jesus emphatically expresses certain doctrinal theories to the experiencer to be relayed back to the masses is inherently untrustworthy.

Just my opinion but I think NDEs are too varied to equate any particular city with heaven, and not being in the city to mean one is not 'saved.' Some experiencers aren't allowed to go to the 'city' or other place because, well, they aren't dead yet.

And how would you explain that those who see angels or relatives or other figures describe feelings of intense love and bliss? Is Satan expressing love and bliss to these experiencers to fool them and prevent them from becoming a particular brand of Christian when they return to their body? To me it just doesn't pass the smell test.

9/13/12 11:30 PM
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reverend john
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What does Gods justice in Jesus look like? It looks like grace and mercy

Jesus dies for the world, all of the world. Far from thinking Jesus dear is meaningless I think it is way more powerful than you appear to

Rev Phone Post
9/14/12 10:24 AM
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JitsuGuy
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reverend john -  What does Gods justice in Jesus look like? It looks like grace and mercy

Jesus dies for the world, all of the world. Far from thinking Jesus dear is meaningless I think it is way more powerful than you appear to

Rev Phone Post

The sacrifice of Jesus wasn't nearly as great as someone who dies for their beliefs and does not know if they're correct. Jesus was God. He knew he would resurrect 3 days later. He knew he could kill anything and everything that hurt him if he really wanted to.

A martyr that dies for their beliefs knowing nothing but believing something has given a far greater sacrifice.

Jesus' sacrifice in state of knowing everything, wasn't nearly as great.

So yes, maybe it was powerful, but it isn't the best example of sacrificing one's self.
9/14/12 10:37 AM
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Hops01
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Grakman,

To address your post, I am looking at similarities across the board with several NDEs, covering various timeframes and different walks of life. I need to expand outside the U.S. more, but in general the sampling size is pretty good.
I don't discount a pastor simply because I'm worried he'll alter his experience to match scripture. I am, however, more impressed with the average Biblically ignorant joe that comes back with crazy detailed stories, only later to find out the Bible speaks directly to what he experienced. I guess the point I'd like to make is that most of these folks are not pastors, and a very large portion of them are not Bible-toting Christians. There seem to be a lot of similarities in these stories well beyond "I saw the light."
Regarding the city, some go inside the city walls, some don't. In general, I don't even know if I can hazard a guess to say if you don't go in, you're not saved. My first thought is that death is a process, and different NDE experiencers are at different levels of dying. I do think if you don't ever go inside the city, that might not bode well for you. The lady I referenced above that saw the city way off in the distance - that particular event was, for me, a "bad" encounter that she assumed was good.
As for your last paragraph about Satan pretending to be friends or loved ones.......beats me. That is actually not a unique theory among Christians who believe in NDEs. That possibility is very much up for debate. I believe Satan dupes the masses here on earth, so it's possible that he throws a curve ball to those humans that almost die, but are sure to come back to earth to tell their story. Who knows, spiritually, sort of where you're "at" in that dying process. I can tell you that one commonality among these people that are in a hellish place, then rescued by a light that turns out to be Christ is that they travel away from the earth, very quickly, very far. They leave, like being cradled by Superman going into orbit. Again, I've read this same scenario several times from several different accounts. Did all these people collude to match their stories?
9/14/12 11:18 AM
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reverend john
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JitsuGuy - 
reverend john -  What does Gods justice in Jesus look like? It looks like grace and mercy

Jesus dies for the world, all of the world. Far from thinking Jesus dear is meaningless I think it is way more powerful than you appear to

Rev Phone Post

The sacrifice of Jesus wasn't nearly as great as someone who dies for their beliefs and does not know if they're correct. Jesus was God. He knew he would resurrect 3 days later. He knew he could kill anything and everything that hurt him if he really wanted to.

A martyr that dies for their beliefs knowing nothing but believing something has given a far greater sacrifice.

Jesus' sacrifice in state of knowing everything, wasn't nearly as great.

So yes, maybe it was powerful, but it isn't the best example of sacrificing one's self.

one of true faith believes they wake up in heaven, so is that any greater of a sacrifice? a atheist martyr then would have the only real claim to sacrifice.

However, Jesus did much more than die, he went into hell, he suffered a form of separation from his Father, He submitted to torture. And he did it all while maintaining love for even those that tortured and murdered him. It is a bit presumptuous to suggest that is not sacrificial.

rev
9/14/12 11:27 AM
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JitsuGuy
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reverend john - 
JitsuGuy - 
reverend john -  What does Gods justice in Jesus look like? It looks like grace and mercy

Jesus dies for the world, all of the world. Far from thinking Jesus dear is meaningless I think it is way more powerful than you appear to

Rev Phone Post

The sacrifice of Jesus wasn't nearly as great as someone who dies for their beliefs and does not know if they're correct. Jesus was God. He knew he would resurrect 3 days later. He knew he could kill anything and everything that hurt him if he really wanted to.

A martyr that dies for their beliefs knowing nothing but believing something has given a far greater sacrifice.

Jesus' sacrifice in state of knowing everything, wasn't nearly as great.

So yes, maybe it was powerful, but it isn't the best example of sacrificing one's self.

one of true faith believes they wake up in heaven, so is that any greater of a sacrifice? a atheist martyr then would have the only real claim to sacrifice.

However, Jesus did much more than die, he went into hell, he suffered a form of separation from his Father, He submitted to torture. And he did it all while maintaining love for even those that tortured and murdered him. It is a bit presumptuous to suggest that is not sacrificial.

rev

Hell doesn't exist... Not even in scripture.

Regardless, I don't really understand the point of sacrifice. If that was the only way to fix things. God isn't very creative. A bloody, torturous death was the only fix? Certainly not. After all, these are his rules we're playing by. And he determined that gruesome sacrifice was necessary?

That's one scary mother fucker.
9/14/12 12:31 PM
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reverend john
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the word hell doesn't exist, but the concept does. What that concept means is in debate, but there definitely is some suffering that comes with recognizing ones own shit.

As to the sacrifice, you are reading into what I said. I didn't say God required it, you assumed I said that. That is actually the natural reaction of the powers that be in the world to anarchy, non violence and love. Jesus could not have been who he was, and that not happened. Probably not today either

rev
9/14/12 12:38 PM
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JitsuGuy
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reverend john - the word hell doesn't exist, but the concept does. What that concept means is in debate, but there definitely is some suffering that comes with recognizing ones own shit.

As to the sacrifice, you are reading into what I said. I didn't say God required it, you assumed I said that. That is actually the natural reaction of the powers that be in the world to anarchy, non violence and love. Jesus could not have been who he was, and that not happened. Probably not today either

rev

And yet here we are... All this suffering. All this doubt. It could all be changed at the drop of a super-natural dime. But God watches and waits. People lose their faith, they lose their lives. Yet God watches and waits.

I don't get it.
9/14/12 1:39 PM
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reverend john
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how could it be changed?

rev
9/19/12 11:27 PM
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quick
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My mom and I were talking religion tonight and she actually popped out a family NDES story on me. Apparently my great-grandmothers heart stopped and while she was "dead" she saw the white light. Then an angel appeared and told her to come with him, but she simply told him that her family still needed her and so she couldn't go yet. When she was revived she remembered everything and I guess from there on out she was pretty much at peace in regards to the afterlife.

Anyway I know it isn't much of a story, but I just thought I'd share.
10/10/12 8:24 AM
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770mdm
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A good article I read today off FB: http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/10/07/proof-of-heaven-a-doctor-s-experience-with-the-afterlife.html

10/10/12 6:00 PM
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Grakman
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phydeau - 
JitsuGuy - The ones where a "hellish" place is believed to be experienced I dismiss - immediately.

Hell is a myth and if anything, a creation from the minds of men. It certainly isn't based on scripture. It's based on an interpretation of scripture and it's a horrible interpretation.

It also makes God a sadistic a-hole.

Is God holy? Y/N

Is God just? Y/N

Is a just & holy God requiored to punish sin? Y/N

If you answer "No" to the first question, then God is unworthy of our worship.

If you answer "No" to either of the other questions, then Jesus died for no reason.

I dispute the last one. The reason Jesus died doesn't have to be sacrificial in the sense of an offering to God to atone for sin. Jesus dying a martyr's death that empowered and encouraged people to reject the 'system' and live lives based on love of neighbor is enough of a reason. Belief in Jesus and his teachings has changed the lives of millions of people for the better over the centuries since he died. You can argue whether institutions and governments have applied these teachings correctly, but it's indisputable that belief in Jesus and following his teachings has produced good in the lives of individual believers.

http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Transformation-Original-Christian-Salvation/dp/1456389807

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